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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Playing the Stonewall Dutch (Read 6043 times)
MNb
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Re: Playing the Stonewall Dutch
Reply #61 - 01/22/21 at 20:42:08
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In my previous comment I overlooked a transposition and hence missed this game:


Wharam,J (2392) - Pavlov,V (2385)
WS/MN/072 ICCF, 15.07.2011

1.d4 f5 2.g3 e6 3.Bg2 Nf6 4.c4 Bb4+ 5.Bd2 Bxd2+ 6.Qxd2 O-O 7.Nf3 d6 8.Nc3 Nc6 9.Rd1 Ne4 10.Qe3 Nxc3 11.Qxc3 Qf6 12.O-O e5 13.dxe5 dxe5 14.Ne1 f4 15.Nd3 Bg4 16.Bd5+ Kh8 17.Bxc6 bxc6 18.f3 Bh3 19.Rfe1 Rae8 20.Nf2 Bc8 21.Kh1 Qe7 22.Qa5 Bf5 23.e4 fxg3 24.hxg3 Be6 25.Kg2 Rf6 26.Nd3 Bxc4 27.Qxa7 Rd6 28.Nf2 Rg6 29.Qe3 Bxa2 30.b3 Qf7 31.Rd3 c5 32.Qxc5 Bxb3 33.Ng4 Ra6 34.Re2 Ra1 35.Qc3 Rb1 36.Rb2 Rxb2+ 37.Qxb2 Bc4 38.Rd2 Qh5 39.Rd1 Bg8 40.Qc3 Be6 41.Rh1 ½-½

  

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MNb
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Re: Playing the Stonewall Dutch
Reply #60 - 01/22/21 at 08:20:54
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Paul Cumbers wrote on 01/22/21 at 00:06:06:
The only attempt I can see to take advantage of the misplaced bishop is 9...Nxd2, but then 10.Qxd2 leaves Black well behind on development.

Correct; so 10...d5 and it's difficult for White to turn the lead in development into something concrete. Perhaps a minority attack with 11.cxd5 exd5 12.b4 c6 13.Rfc1, but that allows moving Nb8 to c4 .....

Btw in the old line 7...d6 (iso 7...Ne4) 8.Nc3 (or 8.O-O if White has played Nc3 earlier) Qe8 9.Qc2 Qh5 (said to be good for Black with the bishop on c1) White has 10.Bf4! (10.e4 e5 equalizes) Nc6 11.Rad1. White's plan is to play d4-d5 or e2-e4 in favourable circumstances:  I don't see how Black can equalize.

FInally 4...Bb4+ 5.Bd2 Bxd2+ 6.Qxd2 O-O 7.Nf3 (or 7.Bg2) d6 8.Nc3/8.O-O Nc6 9.d5 Ne5 looks OK for Black indeed. White's best try might be 8.Nc3 Nc6 9.Rd1 Ne4 10.Qc2 Nxc3 11.Qxc3 Qf6 12.O-O with a slight lead in development. Again proving something tangible is not easy.
  

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Paul Cumbers
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Re: Playing the Stonewall Dutch
Reply #59 - 01/22/21 at 00:06:06
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MNb wrote on 01/21/21 at 07:08:18:
Paul Cumbers wrote on 01/20/21 at 23:29:27:
I am struggling to find a good response to 1.d4 e6 2.c4 f5 3.Nf3 Nf6 4.g3 that fits in with a Stonewall repertoire (i.e. without reverting to 4...d6).

My favourite at the moment is 4...Bb4+ 5.Bd2 Be7 6.Bg2 O-O 7.O-O Ne4 8.Nc3 Bf6 because of *9.Nxe4 fxe4 10.Ne5 d6 11.Ng4 (+= or more with the bishop on c1) Bxd4 (impossible with the bishop on c1). You might take a look at Nogueiras-Murey, Luzern 1982.

*9.Nxe4 seems very compliant. Instead, how about 9.Qc2!, so that 9...d5 10.Bf4 cancels out the awkward Bd2. The only attempt I can see to take advantage of the misplaced bishop is 9...Nxd2, but then 10.Qxd2 leaves Black well behind on development.
  
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MNb
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Re: Playing the Stonewall Dutch
Reply #58 - 01/21/21 at 07:08:18
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Thanks, I'll look at these 5...Bxd2+ lines later.

Paul Cumbers wrote on 01/20/21 at 23:29:27:
I am struggling to find a good response to 1.d4 e6 2.c4 f5 3.Nf3 Nf6 4.g3 that fits in with a Stonewall repertoire (i.e. without reverting to 4...d6).

My favourite at the moment is 4...Bb4+ 5.Bd2 Be7 6.Bg2 O-O 7.O-O Ne4 8.Nc3 Bf6 because of 9.Nxe4 fxe4 10.Ne5 d6 11.Ng4 (+= or more with the bishop on c1) Bxd4 (impossible with the bishop on c1). You might take a look at Nogueiras-Murey, Luzern 1982.
  

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Re: Playing the Stonewall Dutch
Reply #57 - 01/20/21 at 23:29:27
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MNb wrote on 01/19/21 at 20:59:50:
Paul Cumbers wrote on 01/19/21 at 20:01:37:
.....transposes to the game Peralta-Alonso Rosell, analysed by Glenn Flear in the Jan 2018 update .....

As GM Taimanov already pointed out 40 years ago in the Classical Dutch with a pawn on d6 the eternal question is: after x...Nc6, what will be the answer to y.d5 ?
The same after 8.O-O (iso 8.Nc3) Nc6.

d4-d5 is answered by ...Ne5, threatening ...Nxc4 with a hit on White's queen, e.g.
[1.d4 e6 2.c4 f5 3.Nf3 Nf6 4.g3 Bb4+ 5.Bd2 Bxd2+ 6.Qxd2 O–O 7.Bg2 d6]

(a) 8.Nc3 Nc6 9.d5 Ne5 10.Nxe5 dxe5 11.Rc1 e4 12.O–O exd5 13.cxd5 a6 14.Rfd1 (14.f3) 14...Qd6 15.e3 with only a slight edge for White;

(b) 8.O–O Nc6 9.d5 Ne5 10.Nd4 Nxc4 11.Qc2 Ne5!? (a possible improvement on the 11...exd5 of Postny-Kuljasevic, Plovdiv 2012) 12.Nxe6 Bxe6 13.dxe6 c6 and now 14.Qxf5 invites a juicy piece sacrifice: 14...Nfg4 15.Qc2 Rxf2! 16.Rxf2 Nxf2 unclear.

Quote:
Also 8.O-O Nc6 9.Nc3 e5 10.dxe5 dxe5 followed by exchange of queens looks rather dull.

You may well be right. I am struggling to find a good response to 1.d4 e6 2.c4 f5 3.Nf3 Nf6 4.g3 that fits in with a Stonewall repertoire (i.e. without reverting to 4...d6).
  
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MNb
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Re: Playing the Stonewall Dutch
Reply #56 - 01/19/21 at 20:59:50
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1.d4 e6 2.c4 f5 3.g3 Nf6 4.Bg2 Bb4+ 5.Bd2 Bxd2+
is from a positional point of view desirable, beceause in the Iljin-Zjenevsky White's queen's bishop is the most dangerous piece. However White tends to get a substantial lead in development.

6.Qxd2 O-O 7.Nf3 d6 8.Nc3

Paul Cumbers wrote on 01/19/21 at 20:01:37:
.....transposes to the game Peralta-Alonso Rosell, analysed by Glenn Flear in the Jan 2018 update .....

As GM Taimanov already pointed out 40 years ago in the Classical Dutch with a pawn on d6 the eternal question is: after x...Nc6, what will be the answer to y.d5 ?
The same after 8.O-O (iso 8.Nc3) Nc6.

Also 8.O-O Nc6 9.Nc3 e5 10.dxe5 dxe5 followed by exchange of queens looks rather dull.
  

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Re: Playing the Stonewall Dutch
Reply #55 - 01/19/21 at 20:48:28
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MNb wrote on 01/19/21 at 18:23:22:
GM Moskalenko in The Diamond Dutch gives a few examples with 1.d4 f5 2.g3 Nf6 3.Bg2 g6 4.Nf3 Bg7 5.O-O O-O 6.b4, recommending Nc6. Are there transpo issues? If White plays (from your move order) 4.b4 Bg7 5.Bb2 O-O ?

In the book of Adrien Demuth https://thinkerspublishing.com/product/adrien-demuth-the-modernized-dutch-defens...we can see several setups are discussed with b4:
1. d4 f5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.g3 g6
a)4.b4
b)4.c4 Bg7 5.b4
c)4.Bg2 Bg7 5.b4
d)4.Bg2 Bg7 5.c4 0-0 6.b4
e)4.Bg2 Bg7 5.0-0 0-0 6.c4 d6 7.b4
f)4.Bg2 Bg7 5.0-0 0-0 6.b4

Each of them has its own characteristics.
So Adrien did a really nice job by covering so many of them.
It also shows how terribly complicated these move-orders are.
Still it doesn't give an answer to my move-order as e.g. after 1.c4 f5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.g3 g6 4.b4 Bg7 5.Bb2 0-0 6.Bg2 white keeps waiting with d4 till black has played d6. We can see the benefits of this e.g. after 6...Nc6 7.b5 Na5 8.d3. So transpositions aren't so easy to obtain and the resulting positions look promising for white. I also couldn't find any games in the chesspub-archives with it.
  
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Re: Playing the Stonewall Dutch
Reply #54 - 01/19/21 at 20:01:37
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an ordinary chessplayer wrote on 01/18/21 at 13:27:10:
Back when I played the Dutch, something like 1.d4 e6 2.c4 f5 3.Nf3 Nf6 4.g3 is just what I was hoping for. 4...Bb4+ is much closer to equality than black gets in the Stonewall or Iljin-Zhenevsky.

4...Bb4+ is interesting (cf. the Keres Defence and the Bogo-Indian). I notice Vallejo Pons switched to this move in a 2019 game after two outings with 4...d5 in 2016. Now 5.Bd2 Bxd2+ 6.Qxd2 O-O 7.Bg2 d6 8.Nc3 transposes to the game Peralta-Alonso Rosell, analysed by Glenn Flear in the Jan 2018 update (https://www.chesspublishing.com/content/11/jan18.htm). Best might be 8...Nc6 9.Rd1 (more challenging than 9.O-O e5!) 9...Ne4 10.Nxe4 fxe4 11.Ng5 d5 which Glenn gives as "probably OK" for Black.
  
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MNb
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Re: Playing the Stonewall Dutch
Reply #53 - 01/19/21 at 18:24:24
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GM Moskalenko in The Diamond Dutch gives a few examples with 1.d4 f5 2.g3 Nf6 3.Bg2 g6 4.Nf3 Bg7 5.O-O O-O 6.b4, recommending Nc6. Are there transpo issues? If White plays (from your move order) 4.b4 Bg7 5.Bb2 O-O ?

brabo wrote on 01/19/21 at 12:19:49:
I am thinking to play g6 before Nf6 to avoid that concept but then I still need to check if this doesn't open any other box of problems. Ah those move-orders are never ending stories.

Make sure you're ready for early h2-h4-h5 lines.
  

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MNb
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Re: Playing the Stonewall Dutch
Reply #52 - 01/19/21 at 18:23:22
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GM Moskalenko in The Diamond Dutch gives a few examples with 1.d4 f5 2.g3 Nf6 3.Bg2 g6 4.Nf3 Bg7 5.O-O O-O 6.b4, recommending Nc6. Are there transpo issues? If White plays (from your move order) 4.b4 Bg7 5.Bb2 O-O ?
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
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Re: Playing the Stonewall Dutch
Reply #51 - 01/19/21 at 12:19:49
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While we are now discussing this g3 stuff without Bg2, I just remember that last year I bumped against something similar in the Leningrad which annoyed me enormously.
1.c4 f5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.g3 g6 4.b4. However here I do notice a number of very strong players regularly choosing for this setup. Unfortunately I don't find any coverage of this line in my books about the Leningrad so I hope the Romanian grandmaster Mihail Marin in his forecasted book https://www.qualitychess.co.uk/products/1/363/leningrad_dutch_by_mihail_marin/ will do.

I am thinking to play g6 before Nf6 to avoid that concept but then I still need to check if this doesn't open any other box of problems. Ah those move-orders are never ending stories.
  
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Re: Playing the Stonewall Dutch
Reply #50 - 01/18/21 at 16:25:26
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brabo wrote on 01/18/21 at 15:16:47:
1) The little move e3 makes the difference here. Once that is played Bf4/Bg5 is out and we have a completely different game.

Yep. previously I thought White could demonstrate an edge after 1.d4 f5 2.c4 Nf6 3.Nc3 e6 4.e3 d5 5.f3 because White controls square e4. I should have added that as far as I know GM Moskalenko's improvement hasn't been tried yet in practice on any level, despite Black's abysmal results in 43 games after 2014 with this structure.
I completely subscribe what you write regarding move orders. AfaIc move order issues begin at move 1; I have quit the idea that the Classical Dutch can be played as a one cure for all (note to myself: don't forget to take a look at 1.g3).
  

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Re: Playing the Stonewall Dutch
Reply #49 - 01/18/21 at 15:16:47
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MNb wrote on 01/18/21 at 15:03:56:
Back to topic: according to GM Moskalenko in The Diamond Dutch the Stonewall may equalize after 1.d4 f5 2.c4 Nf6 3.Nc3 e6 4.e3 d5. If possible compare his notes (starting with "The Dutch Queens'Gambit: 4...d5 - a classification that made me chuckle)) to game 44 in his book to IM Bronznik's notes to game 40 in Beating the Guerrilla's, starting with 8...Nbd7.

1) The little move e3 makes the difference here. Once that is played Bf4/Bg5 is out and we have a completely different game.
2) I also notice that many openingbooks are ignoring largely move-orders. They just pick interesting looking games to reach a certain critical position but don't care much how the critical position is reached or at least don't delve into the details about it.
3)Last as Paul mentioned it is a computer-sequence which made him worry about the quality of the content given in Sedlak's book. Well unfortunately this is a pattern which I notice in many books or even published analysis. I guess it is partly linked to the engines becoming stronger very rapidly but also many strong players (even grandmasters) and no computergeeks.
  
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Re: Playing the Stonewall Dutch
Reply #48 - 01/18/21 at 15:04:07
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an ordinary chessplayer wrote on 01/18/21 at 13:27:10:
Back when I played the Dutch, something like 1.d4 e6 2.c4 f5 3.Nf3 Nf6 4.g3 is just what I was hoping for. 4...Bb4+ is much closer to equality than black gets in the Stonewall or Iljin-Zhenevsky.

I never studied this so I am not going to make any statements about the evaluation. I do play Bb4 against some Dutch setups but then white has normally played already the knight at c3. Anyway I think we do have to agree that the move-order plays a big role here in this discussion. Therefore it could even make sense to investigate a move-order with Bf4 before c4.

an ordinary chessplayer wrote on 01/18/21 at 13:27:10:
When filtering a database by Elo then older games can be missed because the Elo is not filled in. ChessBase sometimes fills in an "historical" Elo, but not always.

I am fully aware of it. On the other hand how often is a game of 100 years ago still relevant for the current state of the theory? Sure it happens sometimes but my experience tells me that I have a much bigger probability of getting interesting games to study by looking at recent games for the theory of an opening. In the end you want to work as efficient as possible. Time is limited and there are so many openings I want/ need to study.

an ordinary chessplayer wrote on 01/18/21 at 13:27:10:
Sometimes beginners do have a clue and still nobody takes notice of it. Tal used to look at everything, he said you could learn even from beginner games. Of course he could "look" at a game blindfold and at great speed. I don't look at everything, but my working database does have games by amateurs in it. Lev Alburt's Chess Life column had true beginner games, even some of those games made it into my database.

I have a few comments here.
1) Yes I do meet sometimes amateurs which have a brilliant idea and they do know it is brilliant. On the other hand I also know that 99 out of their 100 ideas are garbage. So it is a similar story as the games of the old masters. I better spend my study at games played by strong players and I am sure this is also how professionals work today.
2) The number of games available to the public in the time of Tal are an infinite fraction of what is available today. We are flooded by games today, have a look to my latest article on lichess: http://chess-brabo.blogspot.com/2020/12/lichess.html in which I wrote that in one month only more than 78 million standard games were played on the lichess-server. Looking at all played games today is simply impossible unless you are some kind of cyborg.

brabo wrote on 01/18/21 at 08:22:05:
... but his game never influenced the theory of the stonewall.


I guess that I should've added that I am talking about the Dutch stonewall which has its own move-order and should therefore also be treated very differently that a semi-slav. I am no semi-slav player at all.

brabo wrote on 01/18/21 at 08:22:05:
Brabo, I'm not sure if it's just rhetorical style or if you actually think this way, but you tend to write in absolutist always/never terms. In chess there are many exceptions. Basically you are correct on this one, Larsen is agreeing with you, but he also gave a caveat, which you almost Smiley never Smiley do.

People tell me that I am replying with too long answers. So I try to simplify things but then it doesn't cover of course the exceptions. Anyway we are digressing as the essence about our little quarrel is about how well-known is this concept of playing g3 without fianchetting the bishop later against the Dutch stonewall. For me it is not something I had studied ever before and I am playing religiously the opening for more than 20 years against masters. The claim that it is common knowledge for 100 years simply doesn't map with what I see in my practice of probably thousand games with this opening.

brabo wrote on 01/18/21 at 08:22:05:
As the saying goes, everything's new that is well forgotten.

I wrote several articles about this on my blog see
http://chess-brabo.blogspot.com/2014/02/old-wine-in-new-skins.html
http://chess-brabo.blogspot.com/2016/07/old-wine-in-new-skins-part-2.html
http://chess-brabo.blogspot.com/2020/06/old-wine-in-new-skins-part-3.html

With more than 25 years of competitive chess and study, I definitely have an edge in that domain compared to my often much younger opponents. Especially at online chess old lines are extremely efficient.
  
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MNb
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Re: Playing the Stonewall Dutch
Reply #47 - 01/18/21 at 15:03:56
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brabo wrote on 01/18/21 at 14:16:24:
why we shouldn't expect such lines to be covered in opening-books even if they are really strong.

Another reason is directly connected to what I wrote to Paul Cumbers. - as long as White plays sound moves everything is good against the Classical Dutch. For instance only after more than 15 years I found out how nasty 1.d4 e6 2.Nf3 f5 (my favoured move order) 3.Bf4 can be. Hence any book trying to be complete would become way too big.
Back to topic: according to GM Moskalenko in The Diamond Dutch the Stonewall may equalize after 1.d4 f5 2.c4 Nf6 3.Nc3 e6 4.e3 d5. If possible compare his notes (starting with "The Dutch Queens'Gambit: 4...d5" - a classification that made me chuckle)) to game 34 in his book to IM Bronznik's notes to game 40 in Beating the Guerrilla's, starting with 8...Nbd7.

Later addition: last fews weeks I rechecked my repertoire after 1.d4 e6 2.c4 Nf6 3.g3/3.Nf3 Bb4+ once again and sure enough I found some new problem lines (problems for Black, that is). 4.Nbd2 remains difficult to meet, 4.Nc3 is better than I previously thought if White aims at a quick c4-c5 and after 4.Bd2 Be7 only Alekhine's manoeuvre ...Ne4 and ...Bf6 might prevent White from making good use of the extra tempo as pawn d4 is unprotected in critical Nc3xe4 lines.
Really, sometimes I wonder why I don't play something normal like the Von Hennig-Schara Gambit.
  

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