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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Modern vs d4? (Read 495 times)
ErictheRed
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Re: Modern vs d4?
Reply #10 - 06/15/20 at 14:08:51
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I'm curious about 1.d4 g6 2.e4 Bg7 3.c4 Nc6!?.  Is that a reasonable way for Black to stay in Modern territory?

I've just noticed that Straggler mentioned this move yesterday.  There are advantages for Black in not having played ...d6 yet.
  
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Straggler
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Re: Modern vs d4?
Reply #9 - 06/15/20 at 07:39:16
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Pawnpusher wrote on 06/14/20 at 20:23:44:
The best I recall (my book is boxed somewhere) in the 2nd ed. Tiger does say that you have to go King's Indian there to have a realistic chance.

I haven't studied the whole chapter, but I don't think he says this. He does say:
"I feel [4...e5] gives Black a reasonable game, although I still consider the KID the more reliable choice"
and
"Yesterday and today I believe the Averbakh is perfectly playable for Black. But who knows what I'll believe tomorrow?"
Not exactly a ringing endorsement, and he did have a book to sell, but he seems an honest guy and I'd be inclined to take him at his word.
  
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Pawnpusher
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Re: Modern vs d4?
Reply #8 - 06/14/20 at 20:23:44
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The best I recall (my book is boxed somewhere) in the 2nd ed. Tiger does say that you have to go King's Indian there to have a realistic chance.
  
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Straggler
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Re: Modern vs d4?
Reply #7 - 06/14/20 at 19:06:06
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an ordinary chessplayer wrote on 06/14/20 at 18:21:41:
In Tiger's Modern, even though he doesn't believe in it himself, Hillarp Persson offers a line with 4...e5. To recap, it's 1.d4 g6 2.c4 Bg7 3.e4 d6 4.Nc3 e5.

Perhaps a slight exaggeration to say he doesn't believe in it. While he admits that the KID is more reliable, in The Modern Tiger he says he has played 4...e5 a few times with reasonable success. The chapter on it is over 50 pages long, so it's not exactly a cop-out. Personally I am more scared of the aggressive 3.Nc3 lines than of this, but YMMV.

Bologan, on his DVD The Modern Pirc, says that after 1.e4 g6 2.d4 Bg7 3.c4 by far the best move is 3...Nc6. I assume he means it's the best if you don't count the KID.
  
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LeeRoth
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Re: Modern vs d4?
Reply #6 - 06/14/20 at 18:49:02
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@Mtal,

I messed around with 1..g6 once as a way to reach the Benoni.  It doesn’t really work.  I don’t like 2..f5 because these days I think everyone would just play h4 on autopilot.  Also, it might depend on your opposition —there are 1.d4 players who will play 2.c4 regardless —.  but think you will see a fair bit of 2.e4 followed by 3.Nc3 and 3.c3.

As for the main lines, I personally would look into 4..Nd7 and consider the KID.  You can also consider Ne7 lines.  You get the same structure and some interesting positions.  But Bg5 scores well for White and you should also be aware of g4 for White. 

I thought 4..Nc6 was the Averbach, but whatever it’s called, it’s the main line and definitely worth investigating.  It seems to me that White has more than one challenging system against it (starting with the initial choice of d5 or Be3), but see if you are ok with the resulting positions.



  
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kylemeister
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Re: Modern vs d4?
Reply #5 - 06/14/20 at 18:46:20
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an ordinary chessplayer wrote on 06/14/20 at 18:21:41:
In Tiger's Modern, even though he doesn't believe in it himself, Hillarp Persson offers a line with 4...e5. To recap, it's 1.d4 g6 2.c4 Bg7 3.e4 d6 4.Nc3 e5. He gives some analysis based on Morozevich. I took a look and found some improvements for white, such that I also don't believe in it.

I'm reminded of something Keene wrote about the old book line 5. de de 6. Qxd8+ Kxd8 7. f4 in the 1980s:  "Such positions may be defensible for Black but they are no fun.  I have tried them for both sides, and believe me, it is more enjoyable to be White."

A line which can become quite King's Indianish is (by one possible move order) 1. d4 g6 2. c4 Bg7 3. e4 c5 4. d5 d6 5. Nc3 e6.  For instance a game Sosonko-Eising went 6. Nf3 Ne7 7. Be2 0-0 8. 0-0 e5 9. Ne1 f5 10. Nd3 Nd7, which is a standard KID position with ...c5 added.
  
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an ordinary chessplayer
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Re: Modern vs d4?
Reply #4 - 06/14/20 at 18:21:41
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Mtal wrote on 06/14/20 at 04:45:07:
Hi all,

I was wondering, is the modern a good try vs say d4 and c4, or other queen pawn openings? I guess as black you could probably play either a dinzi indian or an Averbach  (or maybe some kind of benoni). I was also thinking some kid like positions (but not actually the kid so it is less theory). Was also thinking I could play f5 too or a hippo.. Well if any one does play g6 vs d4, please let me know any tips on how to play it. Thanks.

Unfortunately, after 1.d4 g6 2.c4 Bg7 3.e4 (or 1.d4 g6 2.e4 Bg7 3.c4), the strong Modern Defense players believe that black should transpose to the King's Indian with 3...d6 4.Nc3 Nf6. So says GM Hillarp Persson in the first edition of his book (I don't have the second edition), so says IM Vigorito who handles the King's Indian for chesspublishing, and so say all the strong Modern Defense players of my acquaintance. Anything else is taking a big risk.

1.d4 g6 2.c4 Bg7 3.e4 is already an Averbakh -- the Averbakh is a system for white! In this move order, for black there's no Dzindzhi, there's no ...f5, and the hippo is not great at all when white has played c4. You can try a Benoni, but if white plays classically it's likely to be just a King's Indian (...c5 flavor) after all.

You might want to investigate a move order 1.d4 d6!? when 2.c4 e5 avoids King's Indian territory. Or if 1.d4 d6 2.e4 g6 3.c4 e5!? is still playable for black. Against anything except 3.c4 you get a playable non-King's Indian Modern. It's no panacea though, because 1.d4 d6 2.c4 e5 3.Nf3 and 3.Nc3 are good moves which require some effort for black to play well. And 1.d4 d6 2.Nf3 might also require a creative solution, if black is not satisfied to transpose to a King's Indian.

It might seem that 1.d4 g6 2.c4 d6 accomplishes the same thing as 1.d4 d6, but white can cross you up with 3.Nc3. There's still no Dzindzhi, 3...f5 I just do not trust, the hippo has the same objection as before. That leaves 3...Bg7 4.e4 and now what?

There is one final option. In Tiger's Modern, even though he doesn't believe in it himself, Hillarp Persson offers a line with 4...e5. To recap, it's 1.d4 g6 2.c4 Bg7 3.e4 d6 4.Nc3 e5. He gives some analysis based on Morozevich. I took a look and found some improvements for white, such that I also don't believe in it. But you might find a way to make this or some other pure Modern line work, at least in practical over-the-board play. Again, it all depends on your tolerance for risk.
  
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Pawnpusher
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Re: Modern vs d4?
Reply #3 - 06/14/20 at 11:13:46
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If you are interested in using a book, I would look at a copy of Tiger's Modern it discusses the very questions you ask. It's a year of two old (there are two editions) but I think it is current enough to get your bearings.
  
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Straggler
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Re: Modern vs d4?
Reply #2 - 06/14/20 at 09:42:40
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I think it's great as long as White doesn't play e4: you can get a Leningrad Dutch without the anti-Dutch sidelines. Unfortunately, White can and usually does play e4.
  
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Mtal
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Re: Modern vs d4?
Reply #1 - 06/14/20 at 04:46:11
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oh i would probably think of playing it vs the reti and English too.
  
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Mtal
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Modern vs d4?
06/14/20 at 04:45:07
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Hi all,

I was wondering, is the modern a good try vs say d4 and c4, or other queen pawn openings? I guess as black you could probably play either a dinzi indian or an Averbach  (or maybe some kind of benoni). I was also thinking some kid like positions (but not actually the kid so it is less theory).Was also thinking I could play f5 too or a hippo.. Well if any one does play g6 vs d4, please let me know any tips on how to play it. Thanks.
  
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