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Normal Topic Ntirlis Playing 1 d4 d5 Why no Indian move order? (Read 610 times)
Ametanoitos
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Re: Ntirlis Playing 1 d4 d5 Why no Indian move order?
Reply #5 - 07/19/20 at 17:21:24
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So, the criticism here is why a book called 1.d4 d5 did not actually analyse 1.d4 Nf6?  Tongue

I get the point, honestly. But one of the core ideas of the book was to show that Black has nothing to fear in the Exchange Variation. The original idea, a few years before the actual book happened, was to analyse 1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 Be7!?, when I "discovered" the power of the h6+Nh5 plan, we decided to go for this instead. I am happy that after 4 years, the whole repertoire still goes strong (I even actually sent a few updates for the latest reprint a few months back).
  
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Re: Ntirlis Playing 1 d4 d5 Why no Indian move order?
Reply #4 - 07/17/20 at 22:37:03
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My 5cents.

Your move order should be 1...Nf6 or 1...d5 as a function of how secure/happy do you feel with the different non-main-line alternatives White has at his disposal.

Do you wamt to avoid the Trompowsky? I do.
Do you want to avoid 1.d4 d5 2.e4? Why? Play the french xDD
Do you prefer not to play d5 in the London as Black and play d6 systems instead? I do.
Etc...

Btw, Nikos did a wonderful job covering the sidelines after d4 d5. The "sidelines" against 1...Nf6 you have to prepare yourself.

Take care you all,
  
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tracke
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Re: Ntirlis Playing 1 d4 d5 Why no Indian move order?
Reply #3 - 07/17/20 at 19:33:42
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Somewhere and somehow you have to fix, set and keep a standard!? And there are other ways than statistics ...

1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 (3.Nc3 Nf6) is 100% the historical, the established, the classical way to reach a QGD.
Therefore it‘s also the ECO classification, based on important games up to ~1965 .

In that sense 1.d4 Nf6 is only a very important transposition tool and its value depends on several things. Maybe it‘s the Nimzo, maybe the QGE, maybe the Tromp, maybe the subtil difference between Blackmar and Hübsch ?!

tracke Smiley
  
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ernie
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Re: Ntirlis Playing 1 d4 d5 Why no Indian move order?
Reply #2 - 07/17/20 at 16:44:43
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Thanks for the reply from Columbus. I agree with you about the Nimzo-Indian. It is by far the most common game after 1 d4 Nf6 .
I do not have ChessBase, the Big Database or statistical software.
I have almost 100k World-class games downloaded from theweekinchess since 2008, plus access to various on-line databases.
In what I've examined the mainline QGD ( admittedly 'mainline' is ill-defined ) starts more commonly from 1 d4 Nf6 than 1 d4 d5. In local clubs & tournaments in central Texas one rarely sees ...d5 after 1 d4 . Almost always 1 d4 is met with ...Nf6 , even in games that become QGD. But this is anecdotal.
Ntirlis wrote a repertoire for Black. Doesn't the choice ...d5 or ...Nf6 belong to Black ? I do like his excellent book.
  
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an ordinary chessplayer
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Re: Ntirlis Playing 1 d4 d5 Why no Indian move order?
Reply #1 - 07/17/20 at 05:09:22
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I find your database "analysis" to be quite superficial. Why did you stop after 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 ??? You needed to look deeper. Using ChessBase Big Database 2018 and taking games from 2007 and later we find the following numbers of games:
-------------------------------------------------
44.032 := position after 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 d5
31.780 := last move was 3...Nf6
10.637 := last move was 3...d5
-------------------------------------------------
66.163 := position after 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3
10.637 := black plays 3...d5
50.555 := black plays 3...Bb4
-------------------------------------------------
55.198 := position after 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.Nf3 d5
18.113 := last move was 3...Nf6
19.515 := last move was 3...d5
-------------------------------------------------
73.149 := position after 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.Nf3
19.515 := black plays 3...d5
28.190 := black plays 3...b6
15.682 := black plays 3...Bb4+
-------------------------------------------------
From the above we can easily see that black is mostly using the 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 move order to play the Nimzo-Indian -- after 3.Nc3 the Nimzo is 5x more popular than transposing to the QGD. Even when white plays 3.Nf3 to avoid the Nimzo, only about 1 in 4 blacks transpose into the QGD, although theory considers black has better equalizing chances there than after 3.Nc3. We haven't even touched on the Catalan with 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.g3, but I will note that 1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.g3 is nothing for white, so the 1...d5 move order at least forces white to commit to Nf3 before g2-g3. To summarize, when black wants a QGD, the 1...Nf6 move order is common enough, but the 1...d5 move order is more popular by about 5 to 3.

Your final point beginning "Furthermore" is irrelevant to your 1...d5/1...Nf6 question, because 1.c4 and 1.Nf3 are choices for white, not for black.
  
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ernie
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Ntirlis Playing 1 d4 d5 Why no Indian move order?
07/17/20 at 03:58:44
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Slightly over half of Nikolaos Ntirlis excellent book is about the QGD ( 9 chapters, 184 out of 335 pages ). Yet in these chapters he only discusses the move order 1 d4 d5 .
In four databases examined 1 d4 Nf6 is several times as frequent as 1 d4 d5 . Of course not all these become QGD.
I studied a database of recent games ( of past 12 years ). Tabulated the openings coded D35, D37 & D38, which include the bulk of 'mainline' QGD. These games start :
    Indian move order  52 %   1 d4 Nf6  2 c4 e6
    Standard order       17 %   1 d4  d5  2 c4 e6
    Reti order                6 %   1 Nf3 d5  2 d4 Nf6
    anti-Reti                  6 %   1 Nf3 Nf6 2 c4 e6
    English                    6 %   1 c4  e5   2 Nc3 d5
In his QGD chapters Ntirlis says nothing of the Indian order, although it is by far the favorite and seems to be increasing.
I'm puzzled why he invests so much in the QGD, yet with an outdated move order ?
One could reply "the book's about 1 d4 d5". Possibly a circular argument. Furthermore the last 3 chapters are on English, Reti & KIA , not starting 1 d4 d5 .
  
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