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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Negis line in Dragon and accelerated Dragon (Read 1186 times)
XChess1971
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Re: Negis line in Dragon and accelerated Dragon
Reply #14 - 09/09/20 at 23:23:42
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MNb wrote on 09/07/20 at 16:58:35:
XChess1971 wrote on 09/07/20 at 16:23:37:
I have always played the Soltis. ...... After 10...h5 play should be fine for black.

I never disputed this.  Problem is that 10.h4 (it's not mine; GM Velimirovic already played it in 1963) is a rare move, so taking up the Soltis just for this specific move order is rather overkill.

XChess1971 wrote on 09/07/20 at 16:23:37:
I'll have to look closer at your 10.h4. Especially because it comes from Accelerated Dragon.

Let me save you some time and work: 10.h4 Nxd4 11.Bxd4 b5 12.h5 is good for White.


If you are looking for a possible alternative for black on the line you are mentioning coming from Accelerated Dragon. Options are 8...a5 (Instead of 8...d6) Uoegele Variation I believe is the name. I drew one corr. game many years ago. Also I read somewhere that 8...e6 was played by GM Spangerberg. Even 8...Re8 played by Dubov.
  
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XChess1971
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Re: Negis line in Dragon and accelerated Dragon
Reply #13 - 09/08/20 at 10:28:14
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MNb wrote on 09/07/20 at 16:58:35:
XChess1971 wrote on 09/07/20 at 16:23:37:
I have always played the Soltis. ...... After 10...h5 play should be fine for black.

I never disputed this.  Problem is that 10.h4 (it's not mine; GM Velimirovic already played it in 1963) is a rare move, so taking up the Soltis just for this specific move order is rather overkill.

XChess1971 wrote on 09/07/20 at 16:23:37:
I'll have to look closer at your 10.h4. Especially because it comes from Accelerated Dragon.

Let me save you some time and work: 10.h4 Nxd4 11.Bxd4 b5 12.h5 is good for White.


Just like I suspected the strongest move seems to be 10...h5 11.Qd2 Rc8! (11...Ne5 is an alternative. But I prefer to keep the tension on d4 and see what white will play next. After 11...Ne5 12. Bh6 Rc8 13.Bxg7 Kxg7 14.0-0-0 Qa5 15.Kb1 Nc4 16.Qd3 Qc5 is the option} 12.Nxc6 bxc6 13.Bh6 c5 14.Bc4 (14.Bxg7 Kxg7 15.Bc4 Qb6 transposes) 14...Qb6 15.Bxg7 Kxg7 like in the game Anand - Kasparov, Match 1995. Also 12.0-0-0 Ne5 transposes into the regular Soltis. So far so good!
« Last Edit: 09/09/20 at 02:49:37 by XChess1971 »  
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MNb
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Re: Negis line in Dragon and accelerated Dragon
Reply #12 - 09/07/20 at 16:58:35
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XChess1971 wrote on 09/07/20 at 16:23:37:
I have always played the Soltis. ...... After 10...h5 play should be fine for black.

I never disputed this.  Problem is that 10.h4 (it's not mine; GM Velimirovic already played it in 1963) is a rare move, so taking up the Soltis just for this specific move order is rather overkill.

XChess1971 wrote on 09/07/20 at 16:23:37:
I'll have to look closer at your 10.h4. Especially because it comes from Accelerated Dragon.

Let me save you some time and work: 10.h4 Nxd4 11.Bxd4 b5 12.h5 is good for White.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
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XChess1971
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Re: Negis line in Dragon and accelerated Dragon
Reply #11 - 09/07/20 at 16:23:37
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MNb wrote on 09/07/20 at 15:46:11:
XChess1971 wrote on 09/07/20 at 15:21:25:
Everything in the books of Negi and De La Villa are of course from White's point of view.

Yeah, I misunderstood until Bragesjo's last comment.

XChess1971 wrote on 09/07/20 at 15:21:25:
Of course in 9.Bc4 Bd7 10..0-0-0 Rc8 11.Bb3 Ne5 12.Bh6 is not great due to 12...Bxh6 13.Qxh6 Rxc3 14.bxc3 a5!

This however is irrelevant for my question (perhaps point); I'm interested in 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.d4 cvxd4 4.Nxd4 g6 5.Nc3 Bg7 6.Be3 Nf6 7.Bc4 O-O 8.Bb3 d6 9.f3 Bd7 10.h4 not Rc8, from both White's and Black's point of view. I'm pretty sure it won't be something with Bh6 as long Her White Majesty is still on d1  Wink.


In my experience on the Regular Dragon I always considered 10...h5 in one shot ruling out 11.h5 ideas. I have always played the Soltis. I never went for ideas related to h5, Nxh5 g4, Nf6. Maybe in some blitz. But I never advocated to that. After 10...h5 play should be fine for black.

I'll have to look closer at your 10.h4. Especially because it comes from Accelerated Dragon.
  
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MNb
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Re: Negis line in Dragon and accelerated Dragon
Reply #10 - 09/07/20 at 15:46:11
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XChess1971 wrote on 09/07/20 at 15:21:25:
Everything in the books of Negi and De La Villa are of course from White's point of view.

Yeah, I misunderstood until Bragesjo's last comment.

XChess1971 wrote on 09/07/20 at 15:21:25:
Of course in 9.Bc4 Bd7 10..0-0-0 Rc8 11.Bb3 Ne5 12.Bh6 is not great due to 12...Bxh6 13.Qxh6 Rxc3 14.bxc3 a5!

This however is irrelevant for my question (perhaps point); I'm interested in 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.d4 cvxd4 4.Nxd4 g6 5.Nc3 Bg7 6.Be3 Nf6 7.Bc4 O-O 8.Bb3 d6 9.f3 Bd7 10.h4 not Rc8, from both White's and Black's point of view. I'm pretty sure it won't be something with Bh6 as long Her White Majesty is still on d1  Wink.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
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XChess1971
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Re: Negis line in Dragon and accelerated Dragon
Reply #9 - 09/07/20 at 15:21:25
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MNb wrote on 09/07/20 at 05:54:21:
XChess1971 wrote on 09/06/20 at 21:24:40:
You should not be disappointed if someone plays Nxc6.

That's not what I wrote. What I did write is that I'm a bit disappointed that GM Negi recommends transposing to the main line and apparently doesn't trust independent options for Black, especially the two I mentioned.


Well the point of black playing ... Rc8 before ...Ne5 is usually to avoid Bh6 because of the Nd4.
Everything in the books of Negi and De La Villa are of course from White's point of view.

Of course in 9.Bc4 Bd7 10..0-0-0 Rc8 11.Bb3 Ne5 12.Bh6 is not great due to 12...Bxh6 13.Qxh6 Rxc3 14.bxc3 a5!
  
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MNb
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Re: Negis line in Dragon and accelerated Dragon
Reply #8 - 09/07/20 at 08:31:43
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Thanks for clarification. What does he recommend against

10.h4 Nxd4 11.Bxd4 a5 and after  10.h4 h5 11.Qd2 Na5/Ne5 (iso 11...Rc8) ?
  

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bragesjo
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Re: Negis line in Dragon and accelerated Dragon
Reply #7 - 09/07/20 at 08:04:55
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Maybee I was not clear. Negis recommendations are only for WHITE in the book GM repertour
The recommends for black is by an other author who wanted to motivate 900 yugoslav and Marocy instead of  of Bc4 yugoslsv in hes book Dismantling the Sicilian
That book is also written for WHITE.  The other author gave this as sample lines since they are traditon mainlines he did not mention every sidelines. Dismantling  book has en entire chapter where he explains why he went for this and not that vs every sicilian variation and writes what other booksxfir WHITE recommends and why he disagrees.
  
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MNb
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Re: Negis line in Dragon and accelerated Dragon
Reply #6 - 09/07/20 at 05:54:21
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XChess1971 wrote on 09/06/20 at 21:24:40:
You should not be disappointed if someone plays Nxc6.

That's not what I wrote. What I did write is that I'm a bit disappointed that GM Negi recommends transposing to the main line and apparently doesn't trust independent options for Black, especially the two I mentioned.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
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XChess1971
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Re: Negis line in Dragon and accelerated Dragon
Reply #5 - 09/06/20 at 21:24:40
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MNb wrote on 07/17/20 at 13:17:40:
bragesjo wrote on 07/17/20 at 11:31:11:
Yugoslav attack

1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 g6 5. Nc3 Bg7 6. Be3 Nf6 7. Bc4 O-O 8.
Bb3 d6 9. f3 Bd7 10. h4 h5 {is analysed by Negi who concluded that black is
equal} 11. Qd2 Rc8 12. Nxc6 bxc6 {etc did I met and draw in a corr game and is one of Negis lines} *

I find it a bit disappointing (from Black's point of view) that Negi recommends to transpose to this main line Dragon. From White's point of view this makes me happy. I'd like to try 12.O-O-O Ne5 and now 13.Rdg1 a la GM De Firmian. In the end it's equal of course.
So Negi doesn't trust other options for Black, like 10...Nxd4 11.Bxd4 a5 or 11...Na5 (iso 11...Rc8)?
Doesn't 11...Ne5 simply avoid 12.Nxc6 ?


You should not be disappointed if someone plays Nxc6. It is a concession that you are given. Especially if you can reply ...bxc6.
« Last Edit: 09/07/20 at 00:10:39 by XChess1971 »  

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bragesjo
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Re: Negis line in Dragon and accelerated Dragon
Reply #4 - 07/17/20 at 13:41:13
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Negis book (GM repertour) is written for whites point of view and has one of the lines as main. I belive the early h4 was hes backup line.

The lines I posted here are comments by an other author who made these comments about Negis books lines and why he did not recommend Bc4 yugoslav in hes book "Dismantling sicilian", also written from whites point of view as well. Dismantling book has an extra chapter where the author explaines why he did not choose certain lines and the posts here is why he went for Marocy vs accelerered and 9 000 vs dragon instead of Bc4 yugoslav.
  
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Re: Negis line in Dragon and accelerated Dragon
Reply #3 - 07/17/20 at 13:17:40
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bragesjo wrote on 07/17/20 at 11:31:11:
Yugoslav attack

1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 g6 5. Nc3 Bg7 6. Be3 Nf6 7. Bc4 O-O 8.
Bb3 d6 9. f3 Bd7 10. h4 h5 {is analysed by Negi who concluded that black is
equal} 11. Qd2 Rc8 12. Nxc6 bxc6 {etc did I met and draw in a corr game and is one of Negis lines} *

I find it a bit disappointing (from Black's point of view) that Negi recommends to transpose to this main line Dragon. From White's point of view this makes me happy. I'd like to try 12.O-O-O Ne5 and now 13.Rdg1 a la GM De Firmian. In the end it's equal of course.
So Negi doesn't trust other options for Black, like 10...Nxd4 11.Bxd4 a5 or 11...Na5 (iso 11...Rc8)?
Doesn't 11...Ne5 simply avoid 12.Nxc6 ?
  

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bragesjo
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Re: Negis line in Dragon and accelerated Dragon
Reply #2 - 07/17/20 at 11:31:11
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Yugoslav attack

1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 g6 5. Nc3 Bg7 6. Be3 Nf6 7. Bc4 O-O 8.
Bb3 d6 9. f3 Bd7 10. h4 h5 {is analysed by Negi who concluded that black is
equal} 11. Qd2 Rc8 12. Nxc6 bxc6 {etc did I met and draw in a corr game and is one of Negis lines} *

1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 g6 5. Nc3 Bg7 6. Be3 Nf6 7. Bc4 O-O 8.
Bb3 d6 9. f3 Bd7 10. Qd2 Nxd4 11. Bxd4 b5 {Negis line} 12. a4 b4 13. Nd5 Nxd5
14. exd5 (14. Bxg7 Kxg7 15. exd5 Qb6 16. h4 h5 17. O-O-O Qa5 18. Qd4+ Kg8 19.
g4 Bxa4 {and Negi writes that white has nothing}) 14... Bxd4 {Negis
recommendation} 15. Qxd4 Re8 {Dismantling new idea} 16. Qxb4 a5 17. Qh4 (17.
Qd4 e5) (17. Qd2 e5 18. O-O Rb8) 17... Qc7 {and black has long term
compenstion and appartly drawed a corr game} *

1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nc3 g6 6. Be3 Bg7 7. f3 Nc6 8. Qd2
O-O 9. Bc4 Bd7 10. O-O-O Rc8 11. Bb3 Nxd4 12. Bxd4 b5 13. Nd5 Nxd5 14. Bxg7
Kxg7 15. exd5 a5 16. a3 Kg8 17. Rhe1 (17. h4 {did Negi also analyse to eqaul})
17... Rc5 18. Re3 b4 19. axb4 axb4 20. Qxb4 Qa8 21. Bc4 Bf5 22. Ra3 Qc8 23. b3
Qc7 24. Qd2 Rc8 {Dismatling writes that Negi and engines thinks tha white has
an edge here while Dismatling concluded that it is virtually impossible for
white to improved the position. I played a draw myself in one corr game.
Dismatling give one sample line} 25. Ra4 Bd7 26. Ra2 Bb5 (26... h5 27. h3 Rxc4
28. bxc4 {is given as even more simple to equal} Qxc4) 27. Bxb5 Rxb5 28. Kb2
Rc5 29. Kb1 Rc3 30. Re1 Qb7 {etc is given by Dismatling who wrote that Jones
concluded is was impossible to improve that position} 31. Re4 (31. h4 {was
Dismatlings originally try but} R8c5 32. h5 gxh5 33. Rd1 Rc8 34. Rh1 Qb6) 31...
R8c5 32. Rd4 Qb5 33. Qe1 Kg7 34. Rd2 Qb7 {Dismatling write dont get fooled by
computers overoptemistic evaulation} *
  
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bragesjo
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Re: Negis line in Dragon and accelerated Dragon
Reply #1 - 07/17/20 at 11:30:58
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Accelerated Dragon
According the book black can get an equal position after Bc4 by not entering yugoslav attack.

1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 g6 5. Nc3 Bg7 6. Be3 Nf6 7. Bc4 O-O 8.
Bb3 Re8 {was  tough to come to an advatange against and the author of
Dismatling tried to get} 9. f3 e6 10. f4 {to work but after} d6 11. Qf3 Na5 12.
O-O b6 * is given by dismatling as equal but I dont know

1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 g6 5. Nc3 Bg7 6. Be3 Nf6 7. Bc4 O-O 8.
Bb3 d5 9. exd5 Na5 {is the new trend and after Negis} 10. O-O Nxb3 11. Nxb3 b6
12. d6 exd6 13. Bd4 Re8 14. Qd2 Bb7 15. Rfe1 Re6 {and dismatling writes that
white has a symbolic adnbatage and writes a low engive evalution of 0.15 but does not
write anything about depth or engine used.} *
  
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bragesjo
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Negis line in Dragon and accelerated Dragon
07/17/20 at 11:30:51
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I start this new thred to separate discusion from an other thread.

Negis book goes for Bc4 yugolav and the lines has no drawback that they lose by force, only allowing an equal position.
The line in gives here are part of "Dismantling the Sicilian latest edition" where the author has a chapter called "What other recomends and why I disagree".

That chapter is usfull for every sicilian player no matter of system and not only for white. I agree on most drawbacks on every variation.
I divided the posts to make in easer to read.

Shaws book is newer so it is not mentioned by I agree on the drawback in English attack based on my own corr games in a line where engines
first thinks white is pawn better but some computer moves later its equal.
Dismatling ddi by they way go for Marocy bind vs accelerated and 9 0-0-0 yugoslav vs Dragon.


Note from the moderator: that other thread Bragesjo refers to is probably this one.

https://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/chess/YaBB.pl?num=1589782175
« Last Edit: 07/17/20 at 13:04:38 by MNb »  
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