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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Resources on the Saemisch for White? (Read 6060 times)
Glenn Snow
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Re: Resources on the Saemisch for White?
Reply #47 - 08/09/20 at 02:37:36
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After:  6.Nge2 c5 7.d5 e6 8.Ng3 exd5 9.cxd5 a6 10.a4 h5 11.Be2 Nh7 12.Be3 h4 13.Nf1, and now instead of 13...Nd7, John Doknjas in his Opening Repertoire: Modern Benoni book recommends the immediate 13...f5 and if 14.exf5 he gives the novelty 14...Bxf5 with very complicated play but perhaps satisfactory for Black.
  
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Re: Resources on the Saemisch for White?
Reply #46 - 08/02/20 at 07:55:15
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Thanks for your helpful comment, Syzygy. I'd like to add 6.Be3 c5 7.Nge2 Nc6 8.d5 Ne5 9.Ng3 h5 10.Be2 h4 11.Nf1 e6 idea 12.f4 (recommended by GM Schandorff) Nxc4 and Black has done very well. I suppose this is why corr. play prefers 12.Bg5.

It's interesting to compare this with 6.Nge2 c5 7.d5 e6 8.Ng3 exd5 9.cxd5 a6 10.a4 h5 11.Be2 Nh7 12.Be3 h4 13.Nf1 Nd7 14.Nd2 and Ne5 obviously doesn't make sense for Black. So I wondered if Black could do without 8...exd5 with 8...h5  Unfortunately for Black there won't be a transposition, because ...Nbd7 (idea ...Ne5) as White had dxe6. So we should look at 6.Nge2 c5 7.d5 Nbd7 instead, eg 8.Ng3 h5 9.Be2 h4 10.Nf1 Ne5. I have hardly a clue what to think of this and the available games don't teach me much either.



Basso,P (2575) - Dixit,N (2358) [E81]
23rd Hoogeveen Open 2019 Hoogeveen NED (2.1), 20.10.2019



½-½
  

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Re: Resources on the Saemisch for White?
Reply #45 - 08/01/20 at 23:54:14
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Usually, when picking up a complex opening like the Saemisch KID, I take a look at recent trends / correspondence games and do some of my own opening analysis to figure out the state of theory.

1) I first became interested in 6. Bg5 after reading Eric's book. Unfortunately, I think Black's equalizing task is easiest here:

6...c5 7. d5 e6 8. Qd2 h6 9. Be3 exd5 10. cxd5 a6 11. a4 Re8 12. Nge2 Nbd7 13. Nd1 (13. Nc1 Nxe4!!) Ne5 14. Nec3 g5!? 15. Be2 Nh5 16. O-O. So far, we've been following Dreev-Kasparov 1996. Here, probably the simplest continuation for Black is 16...b6 =, preventing the fixing of the queenside.

2) 6. Be3 c5 is the traditional mainline. 7. dxc5 or 7. d5 won't yield an advantage against prepared opponents, and are simply easier to play with Black. Instead 7. Nge2 is the most challenging continuation, aiming for an improved Benoni.

The main theoretical discussion is correspondence play centers around 7... Nc6 8. d5 Ne5 9. Ng3 h5 10. Be2 h4 11. Nf1 e6 12. Bg5!? Qb6 13. Qd2 exd5 14. Bxf6 Bxf6 15. Nxd5 Qd8 16. Nxf6+ Qxf6 17. Ne3 Nc6 18. O-O-O Nd4 19. Rhf1. Stockfish is quite happy with White here, but Black has good control over the dark squares, and has held the draw consistently.

Black has various other options, such as 7...Qa5!? 8. Nc1 cxd4 9. Nb3 Qb6!?, which is a tough nut to crack. Overall, though, I don't think I would mind being White in any of these lines.

3) 6. Nge2 seems to be the trendy line in super-GM praxis. One point is that the bishop placement is delayed, but another point is more concrete, and has to do with the Benoni:

6...c5 7. d5 (7. Be3, with a transposition above, is also possible) e6 8. Ng3 exd5 9. cxd5 a6 10. a4 h5 11. Be2 Nh7 12. Be3 h4 13. Nf1 Nd7 14. Nd2 f5 15. exf5 gxf5 16. O-O Ne5 17. Kh1 +=

By speeding up kingside development as much as possible, White "funnels" Black into a line which is strategically dangerous. From a modern preparation standpoint, this is especially poisonous, since Stockfish initially likes 17...f4 18. Bf2 for Black, before realizing how large White's advantage really is.

Considering that the Panno approach has not been doing very well, attention has shifted to 6...a6 7. Be3 Nbd7, intending 8. Qd2 b5!, which has scored heavily for Black.

White should not accept this gambit (which is an equalizer), but should instead aim for a quick kingside assault with something along the lines of 8. g4 or 9. h4, when Black's task is more challenging.

If I had to play the Saemisch KID (or the f3 anti-Grunfeld), I think I would choose the 6. Nge2 move-order, like a few recent authors have done.
  
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Re: Resources on the Saemisch for White?
Reply #44 - 08/01/20 at 21:15:29
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There is saying that goes something like "one has to tolerate all religions since all men have to get to heaven in their own way" which I think is apt here. Sometimes I have strong views myself on certain topics but in this case as the original poster asking the question I do genuinely appreciate all the suggestions.

As a tournament player first and foremost and someone who works full-time, I have to be practical in my approach and realistic about my time, and therefore selective about what I read and what I study. In that sense I definitely agree with Eric's point of view. An old book on the Saemisch is probably not going to fulfill all of my needs hence getting the Gallagher book is not my number one priority. However, that being said I will try to find the book cheap just to read the introduction. In fact, I have bought so many books that I have not read that I cannot even count. Not because I am lazy but either because I found the quality of the book terrible or because the level was not right for me. Chess is about learning and one has to be smart about the information one consumes. However, there is usually at least some nugget of wisdom in most books.

With regards to opening preparation in general, I have recently found in my own games that knowing only ideas and a few moves of mainline theory is not enough against certain opponents. Once in a while I meet opponents who are extremely booked up and actually difficult to get them out of book. I have come to realize that to play on equal terms against such opponents it is unfortunately a fact of modern chess that one has to be studious about the opening. Luckily this forum is a great place for that!
  
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Re: Resources on the Saemisch for White?
Reply #43 - 08/01/20 at 14:38:33
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Paddy wrote on 08/01/20 at 11:08:00:
Hi Eric, with all due respect, are we talking about the same Gallagher book? You write: "there isn't very much explanation in his old text." You make it sound like a database dump. In fact there is a 12-page strategic introduction, each chapter has an intro and there are 56 amply annotated games, with the usual Gallegher/Nunn balance between words and variations; I should add that it was edited by Nunn, another KID expert (cf the wonderful 'Beating the Sicilian' series from the same stable).



We're talking about the same book, and I do think that it's excellent.  I refer to it often in my own book, and already said that it inspired me to play the Samisch.  Still by today's standards (and the standards of Gallagher's later repertoire books from the Black side), there isn't much explanation.  As a beginning player I learned a ton from it, but I had to truly puzzle out a lot of things on my own--which ultimately made me understand the Samisch much better.  Still, much of what I puzzled out on my own with Gallagher's text back in 1995-1998 or so has been explained in more recent books, some on the opening but some on positional play, etc. 

For many years I would have recommended Gallagher's book above any other single source on the Samisch.  It's harder to do that twenty-five years after it was published.  Theory moves on, but so do reader expectations.  If someone purchases it expecting explanations like those found in Gallagher's later Play the King's Indian, they'll be disappointed.  I just want a prospective buyer to be aware of that, though as I've stated it's still an excellent book. 

I completely agree about your later points regarding studying classic games, etc.  I would point out, however, that Gallagher's The Samisch King's Indian was full of the latest theory at the time of writing, and doesn't have many of those old classics that you refer to. 

As an aside, I originally wanted to have a "Strategic Themes" type of chapter in my book, and had a lot of examples of games in KID structures picked out, many that didn't arise from the Samisch.  In the end, almost all of those examples found their way into the book, but interspersed throughout in the relevant sections, and not as a separate chapter.

Anyhow I'm obviously a bit biased regarding the Samisch, so I think I'll step back from the thread and not dominate the discussion.
  
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Re: Resources on the Saemisch for White?
Reply #42 - 08/01/20 at 11:08:00
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ErictheRed wrote on 07/31/20 at 21:37:06:
HAJS wrote on 07/31/20 at 18:57:28:
With regards to Joe Gallagher's book on the Saemisch, I will have to get that one...


This book was excellent when it was published twenty-five years ago and inspired me to play the Samisch.  However a lot has changed in two and a half decades, and there isn't very much explanation in his old text. 

Being completely honest, I don't see a lot of material devoted to the Samisch that I would give a strong recommendation for.  I don't like disparaging other works, but there are some that I wouldn't bother buying even if they were $1.99 in a used book store! 

You don't need a lot of material to get started, really.  One or two good opening books, maybe a collection of games that has some relevant material (Mastering the Endgame Volume 2, for instance), a good database, and get going.


Hi Eric, with all due respect, are we talking about the same Gallagher book? You write: "there isn't very much explanation in his old text." You make it sound like a database dump. In fact there is a 12-page strategic introduction, each chapter has an intro and there are 56 amply annotated games, with the usual Gallegher/Nunn balance between words and variations; I should add that it was edited by Nunn, another KID expert (cf the wonderful 'Beating the Sicilian' series from the same stable).

I think in general we (not necessarily you, Eric) place too much emphasis on getting the latest information. Of course the detailed theory in some lines has moved on since Gallagher's book, but far less so than in many other lines, as there have been fewer top-class games with the KID in general and with the Sämisch in particular in recent decades, so evolution has slowed.

The old games are not to be despised. When Botvinnik advised Kasparov to take up the King's Indian, he suggested that he go back and study the games of the pioneers (Boleslavsky, Bronstein, Geller et al) to imbibe the spirit of this wonderful opening.

But before someone writes in to counter the above, I'm well aware that: "the trouble with chess is the opponent; if you know only "the ideas behind the openings" and he knows the ideas AND a lot of variations, he is likely to beat you"! (Larsen, in the timeless classic How to Open a Chess Game).  Smiley
  
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Re: Resources on the Saemisch for White?
Reply #41 - 07/31/20 at 21:37:06
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HAJS wrote on 07/31/20 at 18:57:28:
With regards to Joe Gallagher's book on the Saemisch, I will have to get that one...


This book was excellent when it was published twenty-five years ago and inspired me to play the Samisch.  However a lot has changed in two and a half decades, and there isn't very much explanation in his old text. 

Being completely honest, I don't see a lot of material devoted to the Samisch that I would give a strong recommendation for.  I don't like disparaging other works, but there are some that I wouldn't bother buying even if they were $1.99 in a used book store! 

You don't need a lot of material to get started, really.  One or two good opening books, maybe a collection of games that has some relevant material (Mastering the Endgame Volume 2, for instance), a good database, and get going.
  
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Re: Resources on the Saemisch for White?
Reply #40 - 07/31/20 at 21:24:58
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Stigma wrote on 07/31/20 at 03:22:03:
6.Bg5 gets the bishop to its best "Benoni square" immediately and as a bonus prevents 6...e5, a traditional main line against 6.Be3 (I still get 6.Bg5 e5?? 7.dxe5 dxe5 8.Qxd8 Rxd8 9.Nd5 +- sometimes in bullet or blitz). White isn't worried about 6...h6, since he will win that tempo back with 7.Be3 and a later Qd2. The downside is the centre and specifically d4 is a bit less secure than with Be3. I think if Black wants to exploit this he should try some of the many lines based on quick Queenside play with ...b5, since that may be more uncomfortable for White if his centre doesn't feel quite secure. There are many setups where Black plays or at least threatens ...b5: The Panno with Nc6, a6 and Rb8, the Byrne system with a6, c6 and Nbd7, the Benko attempt with Nbd7/a6/c5/b5, a recently popular move order covered by Vigorito on ChessPublishing with ...a6, Nbd7 and ...b5 as a pawn sac, etc. Well, this is my impression after dabbling in 6.Bg5 without ever learning the theory very well - I'm sure ErictheRed will correct my misconceptions!


I wouldn't say that you have misconceptions, but when you get into the specifics things are not simple.  There are many nuances, but I make a very strong case in my book to prefer the bishop on g5 in the Panno for instance.  I also don't see anything in the Byrne System that looks very inspiring for Black against 6.Bg5.

Stigma wrote on 07/31/20 at 03:22:03:
There's an irony with 6.Be3 c5 though: Even though it's objectively strong, with Black I would be tempted to avoid it because if White accepts the gambit and knows what he's doing, the queens come off early and things can end up quite drawish. So actually the traditional 6.Be3 with acceptance of the gambit could be a shrewd psychological weapon against King's Indian players out for blood. But that ploy requires a readiness to play in radically different styles from White.


There's a LOT of theory now on 6.Be3 c5 (which I haven't checked since working on my book), but I would strongly caution White against playing this way in the hopes of threatening a draw.  In my experience Black players (even higher rated ones) don't shy away from playing it, are well prepared, and enjoy a much easier to play position with little risk.  Unless a White player really wants to specialize in this line, I don't think that it's worth it.  Generally I don't trust these "psychological weapons" very much: you normally aren't catching your opponent unaware and often only end up psyching yourself out.  It's much better to just play something that offers you real chances of an advantage, or at least more imbalances to work with.
  
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Re: Resources on the Saemisch for White?
Reply #39 - 07/31/20 at 18:57:28
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Paddy wrote on 07/30/20 at 22:38:54:
To be clear, when I mentioned Joe Gallagher, I was referring to his fine book 'The Sämisch King’s Indian', Batsford 1995, rather than his other two books on the KID, one a (still excellent) general introduction in Everyman's 'Starting out' series (2002), the other a repertoire for Black: 'Play the King's Indian, Everyman (2004).

Move orders:
6 Bg5 - I think Eric's book is still by far the best source, but some might like to view Andrew Martin's DVD in the Chessbase 60-minutes series; recent Modern Benoni sources should probably also be checked out;
6 Be3 - the older books all tend to focus on this;
6 Nge2 - loses some flexibility with this knight, but the argument is that, since it seems sound for Black to answer 6 Be3 with 6...c5, White might as well delay the development of the c1-bishop. As already mentioned, Dreev is the big specialist.
Via the 3 f3 move order, there is the extra option of delaying Nb1-c3 and instead playing Ng1-e2-c3; this is interesting but not necessarily an improvement.

In the 1940s and 50s when the Sämisch was greatly feared, top KID specialists such as Bronstein often tried to avoid it and reach the KID via the Old Indian move order; of course every move order has its pluses and minuses.

To see what people are recommending for Black against lines against the OID that prevent direct transposition to the KID, useful sources include 'Play 1…d6 Against Everything' by Hickl & Zude, 'Side-stepping Mainline Theory' by Welling & Giddens and The Old Indian MBM by Tay.


Another great summary. A lot of information packed into one reply. Thank you Paddy.

With regards to Joe Gallagher's book on the Saemisch, I will have to get that one. I briefly read parts of his repertoire from 2004 when preparing for an opponent and I found his explanations and proposed lines great. Unfortunately I did not get as far as reading the whole book, only a specific chapter that I was intending on playing from the White side. In the games I played against this player I would describe all I got was dynamic equality. Have you read his book and do you happen to know of any weaknesses in his recommendations?  Wink
  
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Re: Resources on the Saemisch for White?
Reply #38 - 07/31/20 at 18:26:29
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Stigma wrote on 07/31/20 at 03:22:03:
[quote author=4049425B080 link=1595937705/31#31 date=1596128853]
There's an irony with 6.Be3 c5 though: Even though it's objectively strong, with Black I would be tempted to avoid it because if White accepts the gambit and knows what he's doing, the queens come off early and things can end up quite drawish. So actually the traditional 6.Be3 with acceptance of the gambit could be a shrewd psychological weapon against King's Indian players out for blood. But that ploy requires a readiness to play in radically different styles from White.


A great summary Stigma. Your last comment is especially insightful. I have one opponent in mind who is extremely booked up on the KID and will have prepared different systems for Be3, Bg5 and Nge2. Against Be3 I have noticed he exclusively plays c5. Paradoxically as you say, this might in a way be his only weakness in the KID since as we both usually end up fighting for top places in tournaments we play in, this piece of insight could prove very valuable.
  
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Re: Resources on the Saemisch for White?
Reply #37 - 07/31/20 at 03:22:03
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HAJS wrote on 07/30/20 at 17:07:33:
To Stigma:
Based on my non-existent theoretical understanding about the Samisch, I would argue that 6.Nge2 looks less flexible compared to 6.Be3 unless we are indending to develop the bishop elsewhere. I could see how the knight might want to go to h3-f2 or h3-g5 etc. How does Barrish and others motivate their choice of 6.Nge2?

Barrish just writes about 6.Nge2:
"By not committing our dark bishop yet, we have the extra option of playing Bg5 sometimes."

Paddy wrote on 07/30/20 at 22:38:54:
Move orders:
6 Bg5 - I think Eric's book is still by far the best source, but some might like to view Andrew Martin's DVD in the Chessbase 60-minutes series; recent Modern Benoni sources should probably also be checked out;
6 Be3 - the older books all tend to focus on this;
6 Nge2 - loses some flexibility with this knight, but the argument is that, since it seems sound for Black to answer 6 Be3 with 6...c5, White might as well delay the development of the c1-bishop. As already mentioned, Dreev is the big specialist.
Via the 3 f3 move order, there is the extra option of delaying Nb1-c3 and instead playing Ng1-e2-c3; this is interesting but not necessarily an improvement.


My understanding of the 6th move issue is each of the three moves has advantages and disadvantages:

6.Be3 was the undisputed main line until around 1990, since everyone assumed it stopped 6...c5. But then several games by Shirov, Gelfand and others showed Black can gambit the pawn and get enough compensation, even with the Queens exchanged. White could play 6.Be3 c5 7.d5 instead and aim for a Benoni transposition, but the usual view is the bishop would have been slightly better on g5 in that case.

Both 6.Bg5, 6.Nge2 and 6.Be3 c5 7.Nge2 are attempts to solve this dilemma - the latter move order allows Black to transpose to a Maroczy Bind or continue to offer a Benoni structure, but with the knight forced to choose a square possibly a bit earlier than he would ideally have liked with 7...Nc6. Then 8.d5 Ne5 is standard and has developed a lot of sometimes razor-sharp theory, while 8.d5 Na5, which was little-known before 2010, is more experimental but has done well in practice. But even after 7...Nc6 8.d5 Ne5 there are lines where the bishop turns out to belong on g5, so White takes a tempo loss with Be3-g5.

I believe if Black promised not to play 6...c5 there would be no reason for White to avoid 6.Be3, as it overprotects the centre and is a great bishop placement in all lines except the Benoni lines. But the other moves also have their downsides:

6.Nge2 keeps the option of Bg5 in one move, but loses the option of playing Nh3, which is normally the ideal response to an early ...Nbd7 by Black, when ...Bxh3 is no longer possible - on h3 the knight avoids blocking White's other pieces and usually goes on to find a convenient home on f2. From e2 the the knight will have to move again to allow Bf1 to delevop, but each of the possible squares g3, c1 and f4 are also a bit awkward.
So if Black wants to try to exploit the downsides of 6.Nge2, it's logical to either go for a line with an early ...Nbd7 (i.e. the Byrne system or the Benko attempt with Nbd7/a6/c5/b5) or allow a Benoni but try to exploit White's usual Ne2-g3 by answering it with ...h5-h4 or the Fischeresque ...Nh5!?.

6.Bg5 gets the bishop to its best "Benoni square" immediately and as a bonus prevents 6...e5, a traditional main line against 6.Be3 (I still get 6.Bg5 e5?? 7.dxe5 dxe5 8.Qxd8 Rxd8 9.Nd5 +- sometimes in bullet or blitz). White isn't worried about 6...h6, since he will win that tempo back with 7.Be3 and a later Qd2. The downside is the centre and specifically d4 is a bit less secure than with Be3. I think if Black wants to exploit this he should try some of the many lines based on quick Queenside play with ...b5, since that may be more uncomfortable for White if his centre doesn't feel quite secure. There are many setups where Black plays or at least threatens ...b5: The Panno with Nc6, a6 and Rb8, the Byrne system with a6, c6 and Nbd7, the Benko attempt with Nbd7/a6/c5/b5, a recently popular move order covered by Vigorito on ChessPublishing with ...a6, Nbd7 and ...b5 as a pawn sac, etc. Well, this is my impression after dabbling in 6.Bg5 without ever learning the theory very well - I'm sure ErictheRed will correct my misconceptions!

So to turn the board around, Black can try to be crafty and play the main lines of 6.Be3 c5 but against 6.Nge2 and 6.Bg5 do something different to try to exploit their specific downsides. But in practice most Black players, especially on amateur level, have one favorite system and try to make it work against all the three 6th moves.

There's an irony with 6.Be3 c5 though: Even though it's objectively strong, with Black I would be tempted to avoid it because if White accepts the gambit and knows what he's doing, the queens come off early and things can end up quite drawish. So actually the traditional 6.Be3 with acceptance of the gambit could be a shrewd psychological weapon against King's Indian players out for blood. But that ploy requires a readiness to play in radically different styles from White.
  

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Re: Resources on the Saemisch for White?
Reply #36 - 07/30/20 at 22:38:54
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To be clear, when I mentioned Joe Gallagher, I was referring to his fine book 'The Sämisch King’s Indian', Batsford 1995, rather than his other two books on the KID, one a (still excellent) general introduction in Everyman's 'Starting out' series (2002), the other a repertoire for Black: 'Play the King's Indian, Everyman (2004).

Move orders:
6 Bg5 - I think Eric's book is still by far the best source, but some might like to view Andrew Martin's DVD in the Chessbase 60-minutes series; recent Modern Benoni sources should probably also be checked out;
6 Be3 - the older books all tend to focus on this;
6 Nge2 - loses some flexibility with this knight, but the argument is that, since it seems sound for Black to answer 6 Be3 with 6...c5, White might as well delay the development of the c1-bishop. As already mentioned, Dreev is the big specialist.
Via the 3 f3 move order, there is the extra option of delaying Nb1-c3 and instead playing Ng1-e2-c3; this is interesting but not necessarily an improvement.

In the 1940s and 50s when the Sämisch was greatly feared, top KID specialists such as Bronstein often tried to avoid it and reach the KID via the Old Indian move order; of course every move order has its pluses and minuses.

To see what people are recommending for Black against lines against the OID that prevent direct transposition to the KID, useful sources include 'Play 1…d6 Against Everything' by Hickl & Zude, 'Side-stepping Mainline Theory' by Welling & Giddens and The Old Indian MBM by Tay.
  
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Re: Resources on the Saemisch for White?
Reply #35 - 07/30/20 at 21:47:14
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I think White may well go 4 e4 e5 5 Nge2 or something, in that case.

Very interesting, thanks -- I hadn't considered 5 Nge2. After 5 ...g6, can White thereby do any better than a regular Fianchetto-with-Nbd7 position?  I guess he can try a Saemisch (but advantageously? ...), thus bringing us nicely back on-topic! But Black can surely also keep flexi with 5 ...c6.
  
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Re: Resources on the Saemisch for White?
Reply #34 - 07/30/20 at 21:41:25
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HAJS wrote on 07/30/20 at 17:07:33:
Based on my non-existent theoretical understanding about the Samisch, I would argue that 6.Nge2 looks less flexible compared to 6.Be3 unless we are indending to develop the bishop elsewhere. I could see how the knight might want to go to h3-f2 or h3-g5 etc. How does Barrish and others motivate their choice of 6.Nge2?


Yes, the White players go 6.Nge2 so that they have the option of developing the Bc1 to g5 rather than to e3.  This is thought to be beneficial in the Benoni structures that arise from the ..c5 lines and the 3.f3 anti-Grunfeld move order.

Most of the sources mentioned in this thread are repertoire books/courses.  If you want an overview of the Saemisch, Gallagher's book or Cherniaev's the Saemisch Uncovered would be the one to get.

Most of the Saemisch role models mentioed here are older players.  Today, a lot of different players will go for the Saemisch now and again, but I would suggest looking at the games of Korobov and Sjugirov.

If you take up the Saemisch, you will have to be ready for multiple Black replies, each of which is complicated and poses challenges.  But the two I see the most these days are ..c5 and the Byrne, so be especially ready for those.

Good luck.

  
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Re: Resources on the Saemisch for White?
Reply #33 - 07/30/20 at 19:22:11
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Michael Ayton wrote on 07/30/20 at 17:03:12:
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There is also 5. Bg5 avoiding the KID, which I think has generally been viewed as leading to +=.

Can't Black -- if of course he's happy with a ...Nbd7 Classical and the restriction against the Fianchetto that AOC mentions -- take the sting out of Bg5 by going 1 d4 Nf6 2 c4 d6 3 Nc3 Nbd7 4 Nf3 g6, or does that allow another nasty?


I think White may well go 4 e4 e5 5 Nge2 or something, in that case.
  
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Re: Resources on the Saemisch for White?
Reply #32 - 07/30/20 at 17:17:22
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ErictheRed wrote on 07/30/20 at 16:16:31:
There are a lot of great suggestions in this thread, but I would caution against information overload.  You don't need a ton of different sources; start with only a couple and do a lot of critical thinking for yourself.  Learn what you can from them and then look for other sources.  Obviously I'm talking about learning to play an opening, not entering a correspondence tournament, etc. 

I've written here and elsewhere that I learned a ton about how to play against the King's Indian from Petrosian's games.  He's probably the single player that I learned the most from, even when he played something other than the Samisch.  You'd be surprised at how quickly many strong club players (2200-2400) deviate from theory, and you have to have a good understanding of positional play and space advantages to be successful against the King's Indian. 

As an aside, I seem to have a higher opinion of Ward's book than others.  It's not the best effort out there, but I like that it's a personal look at an opening that Chris Ward played extensively.  He doesn't present a repertoire, he doesn't always show the most critical lines, he isn't always objective, and yet...it's a pretty good collection of games played by normal, human players (before massive computer preparation) with enough educational snippets and interesting ideas to make it worthwhile.  I wouldn't suggest it as your first (and certainly not only!) book on the Samisch, but it's worth having. 


Thank you for your suggestion Eric. I read the review of your book, which seems excellent and your advice is very well received. I think it is well worth checking out just for the chapters you mentioned.

I completely agree with you about understanding rather then memorisation. In fact, I was hoping that the Samisch was one of those kinds of openings I could play more on understanding than anything else. Besides, it is much more enjoyable to go through games as a way to train an opening, and it appears that I am lucky enough that the book with Petrosian's games in the KID has just come out.
  
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Re: Resources on the Saemisch for White?
Reply #31 - 07/30/20 at 17:07:33
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I am on vacation and had some difficulties going online to check answers to the thread yesterday. When I come back the discussion has exploded with many fntastic suggestions. This forum is (probably) the best chess forum in the world.

To Stigma:
Based on my non-existent theoretical understanding about the Samisch, I would argue that 6.Nge2 looks less flexible compared to 6.Be3 unless we are indending to develop the bishop elsewhere. I could see how the knight might want to go to h3-f2 or h3-g5 etc. How does Barrish and others motivate their choice of 6.Nge2?

To TD:
Cheparinov's book appears to be a very recent publication and based on what I could gather is based on 3.f3, the same recommendation as Barrish. I wonder if anyone has both products and is able to compare them. The My One Hundred Best Games by Dreev is definitely something worth checking out as I like going through games rather than theoretical opening books.

To Paddy:
I that Joe Gallagher's book has an excellent reputation and I know several players who still use his recommendations. I even faced his KID repertoire myself once and my opponent showed great understanding. Petrosian's games is on my to-do list to study and I will order the book that came out recently with his games in the Samisch that was also mentioned a few times in this thread. As for Ward's books unfortunately I have no experience.

To an ordinary chess player:
That is a very nice curated list of players to study and indeed I could do worse than start off by studying the games of these players. As I get into the Samish and perhaps even start adopting an anti-grunfeld move order, it is going to make it more interesting to follow Ding's games. Regarding its theoretical value, it is good to know that it is on par with the classical and as you say it might even work better at the amateur/club level. The fact that it has no drawish lines is a big advantage as it is something that I am lacking in my games and that is preventing me from reaching the next level.
  
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Re: Resources on the Saemisch for White?
Reply #30 - 07/30/20 at 17:03:12
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Quote:
There is also 5. Bg5 avoiding the KID, which I think has generally been viewed as leading to +=.

Can't Black -- if of course he's happy with a ...Nbd7 Classical and the restriction against the Fianchetto that AOC mentions -- take the sting out of Bg5 by going 1 d4 Nf6 2 c4 d6 3 Nc3 Nbd7 4 Nf3 g6, or does that allow another nasty?
  
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Re: Resources on the Saemisch for White?
Reply #29 - 07/30/20 at 16:57:13
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an ordinary chessplayer wrote on 07/30/20 at 15:50:58:
Saemisch players should consider 3.f3!? d5!? 4.e5 Nfd7. It's a French of course, but at least black is committed to a Steinitz variation and white gets a Saemisch-like space advantage.

Sämisch players also should consider 3...c5 (iso d5) as in Dangerous Weapons (Pirc and Modern), chapter 12.
  

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Re: Resources on the Saemisch for White?
Reply #28 - 07/30/20 at 16:16:31
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There are a lot of great suggestions in this thread, but I would caution against information overload.  You don't need a ton of different sources; start with only a couple and do a lot of critical thinking for yourself.  Learn what you can from them and then look for other sources.  Obviously I'm talking about learning to play an opening, not entering a correspondence tournament, etc. 

I've written here and elsewhere that I learned a ton about how to play against the King's Indian from Petrosian's games.  He's probably the single player that I learned the most from, even when he played something other than the Samisch.  You'd be surprised at how quickly many strong club players (2200-2400) deviate from theory, and you have to have a good understanding of positional play and space advantages to be successful against the King's Indian. 

As an aside, I seem to have a higher opinion of Ward's book than others.  It's not the best effort out there, but I like that it's a personal look at an opening that Chris Ward played extensively.  He doesn't present a repertoire, he doesn't always show the most critical lines, he isn't always objective, and yet...it's a pretty good collection of games played by normal, human players (before massive computer preparation) with enough educational snippets and interesting ideas to make it worthwhile.  I wouldn't suggest it as your first (and certainly not only!) book on the Samisch, but it's worth having. 
  
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Re: Resources on the Saemisch for White?
Reply #27 - 07/30/20 at 16:09:40
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an ordinary chessplayer wrote on 07/30/20 at 15:50:58:
1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 d6 3.Nf3 is not right. White should play 3.Nc3 e5 4.Nf3 and if black wants a King's Indian then 4...Nbd7 is necessary. That's a big commitment in the Classical, and even if white chooses the Fianchetto at least does not have to worry about the Yugoslav (6...c5) or Panno (6...Nc6).

There is also 5. Bg5 avoiding the KID, which I think has generally been viewed as leading to +=.
  
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Re: Resources on the Saemisch for White?
Reply #26 - 07/30/20 at 16:01:21
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Stigma wrote on 07/30/20 at 00:51:41:
LeeRoth wrote on 07/29/20 at 21:14:59:
This is a great list.  Do you have the Barrish course and, if so, is it any good?

I have it, but I haven't started the King's Indian chapters yet. Part 1 + Part 2 combined are large enough that I'm not trying to learn it all at once, and I've started with more solid defences like the Nimzo-Indian, the QGD and the QGA since these are the kinds of defences that sometimes bore me and could conceivably turn me away from 1.d4 altogether.

Anyway, I like what I see of these courses. The analysis looks good and up-to-date. Barrish answers questions and has promised regular updates for at least a year; both parts have been updated once so far. The detail level seems just right for me (at around 2160), but I imagine titled players would want to dig deeper.

One quibble I've had is he's sometimes a bit cavalier about lines where White sacrifices material - there's quite a bit of that in the QGA 3.e4 chapter. The sacs are objectively correct of course (I believe strong cloud engines were used), but I often find myself wanting more explanation of why I'm fine despite being a pawn or two down, and examples of how to punish Black if he tries to hold on to the material. I've even seen positions where he sums up why White is better without mentioning the material minus. But he did add some extra explanations after my queries. And maybe these worries say more about me than about the courses.  Smiley

The opposite also occurs: There are a few lines, for instance in the "Glasgow Kiss" variation of the Slav with the gambit of the b7 pawn, where Black sacrifices and gets so much activity I'm not sure I would want to play the White side in a practical game.

(An aside on materialism: An IM friend of mine accused me of being too concerned with material in my games against him. My response: "Well, usually when I'm material down against you I'm worse, and when I'm material up I'm also worse, so what can I do?!")


Thanks much.  Based on your recommendation I bought the first one.  He covers a lot of the lines I ordinarily play, but I haven’t gotten that far into it yet.
  
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Re: Resources on the Saemisch for White?
Reply #25 - 07/30/20 at 15:50:58
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Straggler wrote on 07/30/20 at 10:29:35:
I would be more willing to play the Sämisch if it weren't for 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 d6, when 3.Nf3 just seems like the most natural move. Schandorff even suggests that you learn a Nf3 line as back-up, just for this move order!

1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 d6 3.Nf3 is not right. White should play 3.Nc3 e5 4.Nf3 and if black wants a King's Indian then 4...Nbd7 is necessary. That's a big commitment in the Classical, and even if white chooses the Fianchetto at least does not have to worry about the Yugoslav (6...c5) or Panno (6...Nc6).

In Semkov (2009) Kill K.I.D. he advocates the Four Pawns Attack. About black move orders, he says "... Part 6 considers the Classical King's Indian with ...Nd7. I think that White cannot, and should not, avoid this specific type of the KID since it hides no venom.", page 96. Actually he's talking about ...Nbd7 before ...e7-e5. On pages 128-129 he recommends 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 d6 3.Nc3 e5 4.dxe5 dxe5 5.Qxd8+ Kxd8 6.Nf3 Nfd7 7.g4 ("!") 7...c6 8.b3, but in my opinion 4.Nf3 is even stronger.

Another interesting idea for Saemisch players (not Four Pawns players though) is 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 d6 3.Nc3 e5 4.d5!? as frequently played against me in blitz by former KID specialist IM Vigorito. Karpov also played this way. Of course the idea is e2-e4, f2-f3, Bc1-e3, etc. Probably black should try 4...Be7 and later aim for ...Be7-g5, but this is not automatic. Saemisch-style against the Old Indian is hardly mentioned in old theory but has become quite topical today.

Similarly, 1.d4 d6 2.Nf3 is not right for Saemisch players. Correct is 1.d4 d6 2.e4 ("!" Semkov) 2...Nf6 when Semkov gives 3.Nc3 but Saemisch players should consider 3.f3!? d5!? 4.e5 Nfd7. It's a French of course, but at least black is committed to a Steinitz variation and white gets a Saemisch-like space advantage.
  
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Re: Resources on the Saemisch for White?
Reply #24 - 07/30/20 at 15:45:02
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Paddy wrote on 07/30/20 at 14:39:42:
"Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day; teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime!"

Teach a man to cook and he doesn't have to eat fish everyday.
  
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Re: Resources on the Saemisch for White?
Reply #23 - 07/30/20 at 14:39:42
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To "an ordinary chess player": you make many very valid points. I would add Polugaevsky and Averbakh to your list of Sämisch players. By the way there is a very thematic win by Averbakh as White vs Petrosian (!) that is in the Yanvarjov book but is missing from Megabase.
I disagree about the Chris Ward book though; I think it's still quite useful, especially as it includes many of his own games and it's useful to see examples of play at a level that is strong but not super-GM. Admittedly he waffles a fair bit and seems less scrupulous and thorough than e.g. Gallagher, but probably he's aiming his books at a lower-level of players.

To "Straggler": I think my 54 games for Petrosian must have been a typo for 44 - sorry.

To "Stigma": you wrote: "But some would argue these books are too old to be relevant today." They might, but I think they would be wrong.

Some openings are heavily dependant on concrete theory and forcing lines. I think that applies less to a (mostly) closed opening like the Sämisch. While it's always nice to have an opening book that is up-to-date, all such books drift out of date very quickly. Therefore for me the bulk of the "added value" of a good opening book (especially if the topic is one of the closed or semi-closed openings), compared to e.g. an unannotated set of games in a database, is the basis of understanding of typical structures, manoeuvres and motifs etc that I can take away from the book and try to apply in my own games, using my own brain (feeble as it is, it's the only one I have).

In his review of the KID books by Smirin and Kotronias, GM David Smerdon makes some related points - see
https://www.chess.com/blog/smurfo/king-of-kings

It reminds me in some ways of the old adage:
"Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day; teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime!"
  
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Re: Resources on the Saemisch for White?
Reply #22 - 07/30/20 at 11:08:18
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Pawnpusher wrote on 07/30/20 at 10:39:19:
I think Larry Kaufman did a book on f3 also. I think I have it somewhere.

This is mentioned in Reply #2.
  
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Re: Resources on the Saemisch for White?
Reply #21 - 07/30/20 at 10:39:19
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I think Larry Kaufman did a book on f3 also. I think I have it somewhere.
  
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Re: Resources on the Saemisch for White?
Reply #20 - 07/30/20 at 10:29:35
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TD wrote on 07/30/20 at 09:31:27:
an ordinary chessplayer wrote on 07/30/20 at 03:57:36:
Dreev is the big modern name, a consistent 1.d4 player who consistently chooses 5.f3.

I have My One Hundred Best Games by Dreev, in which there are 10 (!) games with the Saemisch.  Smiley

Yet he often plays 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3, followed by g3 against the KID (or Grünfeld).

I would be more willing to play the Sämisch if it weren't for 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 d6, when 3.Nf3 just seems like the most natural move. Schandorff even suggests that you learn a Nf3 line as back-up, just for this move order!
  
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Re: Resources on the Saemisch for White?
Reply #19 - 07/30/20 at 09:31:27
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an ordinary chessplayer wrote on 07/30/20 at 03:57:36:
Dreev is the big modern name, a consistent 1.d4 player who consistently chooses 5.f3.

I have My One Hundred Best Games by Dreev, in which there are 10 (!) games with the Saemisch.  Smiley
  
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Re: Resources on the Saemisch for White?
Reply #18 - 07/30/20 at 08:14:22
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Stigma wrote on 07/30/20 at 01:19:37:
I haven't seen Gallagher's Sämisch book, but I would have thought it was more about concrete theory than strategies and patterns?

There's quite a lot of verbal explanation. Gallagher says somewhere else that he thinks it's his best book, which if true would make it pretty darned good.

Stigma wrote on 07/30/20 at 01:19:37:
Paddy wrote on 07/29/20 at 23:25:29:
I suggest that another good basis would be a study of all of Tigran Petrosian's white games with the Sämisch (52 games, 85.7%!).

I wonder how many of those Sämisch games made it into the book on The King’s Indian According to Tigran Petrosian by Yanvarjov.

The excerpt (https://www.newinchess.com/media/wysiwyg/product_pdf/3738.pdf) tells me there's a 65-page chapter dedicated to the Sämisch, but there are also more theme-based chapters that could contain all kinds of lines. And the Benoni chapter might be relevant by transposition.

Yanvarjov has 44 games in his Sämisch chapter with Petrosian as White, plus 16 where he was Black. There don't seem to be many Sämisch set-ups in the other chapters. Megabase similarly has 44 games as White with ECO code E80-E89 and a score of 85.7%. I wonder where Paddy's figure of 52 games comes from, since Yanvarjov claims to have included "almost all known games played by Petrosian that featured King's Indian structures (including with colours reversed)". I really like this book.
  
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Re: Resources on the Saemisch for White?
Reply #17 - 07/30/20 at 03:57:36
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HAJS wrote on 07/28/20 at 12:01:45:
I would like to learn more about the Saemisch from White's perspective and wonder where would be a good place to start. What are some good books or other media and who are its biggest proponents at the top level? Also, I am curious to know what you think of it in terms of theoretical reputation.

Many thanks!

You could do worse than start with the games by early Saemisch players and work up to today.
  • Botvinnik, Geller, and Spassky were terrors with 5.f3 and their games could be inspiring today, but of course theory has moved on.
  • Petrosian was already mentioned. He could be fun to look at because his interpretation will be so different from the above players.
  • Balashov played the Saemisch consistently when given the chance, but he was more of a 1.e4 player so you might not find that many examples.
  • Sadler is a 1.d4 player whom I associate with the Saemisch, but actually when I checked on it he split about 50/50 between 5.Nf3 and 5.f3.
  • Dreev is the big modern name, a consistent 1.d4 player who consistently chooses 5.f3.
  • After that, when you look at modern players it seems they play the Saemisch only sporadically. Probably there are two reasons for this, although they are related so might amount to one reason. First, the Saemisch requires white to use a particular move order, so white loses some flexibility in the opening. Second, modern players vary their openings a lot to avoid preparation. I looked at Cheparinov, Hillarp Persson, Shankland, Wojtaszek, and they all play the Saemisch only a minority of the time.
  • Ding Liren has taken up the 3.f3 Anti-Grunfeld move order so this might bear watching.

As for books, EricTheRed in Reply #5 is being modest about his book. I have my eye on it. It says something that I am tempted by a book when I don't play the opening with either color.

Paddy wrote on 07/29/20 at 23:25:29:
In this respect I suggest that the older books on the Sämisch by Chris Ward (2004) and Joe Gallagher (1995) still deserve consideration. Both authors are excellent at explaining things.

Gallagher is a good explainer but Ward is not. Same goes for presenting critical lines. I have six books by Gallager, and more where he is co-author, and they are all really good. I have three books by Ward, including his Saemisch book, and a couple of his videos, and the best I can say about them is I didn't pay list price.

Theoretically the Saemisch is probably about the same value as the Classical. Both are slightly better for white, and in each case the engine will overestimate white's edge. But the play required from black is very different. In the Saemisch the ...f7-f5 scheme by itself is a misfire. Instead black has to hurry on the dark squares, even sacrificing a pawn if necessary, before white develops and consolidates the grip on the center. In the Classical, the ...f7-f5 scheme amounts to real counterplay, but white's development is also real. The big plus of the Saemisch is if black plays routinely, they risk getting squashed like a bug. The big minus is if black plays actively and concretely, white doesn't have so many choices and there is a risk the game will follow preparation for a long time, then fizzle out. At club level probably the plus far outweighs the minus. At master level it's the opposite. One final point is it might be hard for white to play the Saemisch for a draw. Not that white should do that ordinarily, but if all you know is the Saemisch and black is in a must-win situation in the last round, you are in for a fight. In the Classical white has more ways to "equalize".
  
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Re: Resources on the Saemisch for White?
Reply #16 - 07/30/20 at 01:19:37
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@Paddy:
Good points about understanding and finding authors with personal experience of the opening. I have Ward's book and sometimes look at it. But some would argue these books are too old to be relevant today. I haven't seen Gallagher's Sämisch book, but I would have thought it was more about concrete theory than strategies and patterns?

Paddy wrote on 07/29/20 at 23:25:29:
I suggest that another good basis would be a study of all of Tigran Petrosian's white games with the Sämisch (52 games, 85.7%!).

I wonder how many of those Sämisch games made it into the book on The King’s Indian According to Tigran Petrosian by Yanvarjov.

The excerpt (https://www.newinchess.com/media/wysiwyg/product_pdf/3738.pdf) tells me there's a 65-page chapter dedicated to the Sämisch, but there are also more theme-based chapters that could contain all kinds of lines. And the Benoni chapter might be relevant by transposition.
  

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Re: Resources on the Saemisch for White?
Reply #15 - 07/30/20 at 00:51:41
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LeeRoth wrote on 07/29/20 at 21:14:59:
This is a great list.  Do you have the Barrish course and, if so, is it any good?

I have it, but I haven't started the King's Indian chapters yet. Part 1 + Part 2 combined are large enough that I'm not trying to learn it all at once, and I've started with more solid defences like the Nimzo-Indian, the QGD and the QGA since these are the kinds of defences that sometimes bore me and could conceivably turn me away from 1.d4 altogether.

Anyway, I like what I see of these courses. The analysis looks good and up-to-date. Barrish answers questions and has promised regular updates for at least a year; both parts have been updated once so far. The detail level seems just right for me (at around 2160), but I imagine titled players would want to dig deeper.

One quibble I've had is he's sometimes a bit cavalier about lines where White sacrifices material - there's quite a bit of that in the QGA 3.e4 chapter. The sacs are objectively correct of course (I believe strong cloud engines were used), but I often find myself wanting more explanation of why I'm fine despite being a pawn or two down, and examples of how to punish Black if he tries to hold on to the material. I've even seen positions where he sums up why White is better without mentioning the material minus. But he did add some extra explanations after my queries. And maybe these worries say more about me than about the courses.  Smiley

The opposite also occurs: There are a few lines, for instance in the "Glasgow Kiss" variation of the Slav with the gambit of the b7 pawn, where Black sacrifices and gets so much activity I'm not sure I would want to play the White side in a practical game.

(An aside on materialism: An IM friend of mine accused me of being too concerned with material in my games against him. My response: "Well, usually when I'm material down against you I'm worse, and when I'm material up I'm also worse, so what can I do?!")
  

Improvement begins at the edge of your comfort zone. -Jonathan Rowson
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Re: Resources on the Saemisch for White?
Reply #14 - 07/29/20 at 23:25:29
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The "aggressive" KID is far more strategic than is generally thought and I would argue that even at a high level a good understanding of the typical structures and motifs of the KID is far more important than knowing lots of deep variations.

In this respect I suggest that the older books on the Sämisch by Chris Ward (2004) and Joe Gallagher (1995) still deserve consideration. Both authors are excellent at explaining things.

I tend to place far greater trust in an opening book when the author himself plays the opening in question. Ward has played the white side of the Sämisch 89 times according to Megabase, with a score of 69.1%. Gallagher has played it much less often with White (11 games, 68.2%) but has a lot of experience on the black side (56 games, 50%).

I suggest that another good basis would be a study of all of Tigran Petrosian's white games with the Sämisch (52 games, 85.7%!).

Once a good basis of understanding has been established, it is relatively easy to get up to date with a search for recent games and articles.
  
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Re: Resources on the Saemisch for White?
Reply #13 - 07/29/20 at 21:14:59
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Stigma wrote on 07/28/20 at 15:28:27:
I can't really answer your question since I haven't studied the Sämisch nearly as deeply as I want to... yet. But I have many books on it and have played it quite a bit. I always get interesting games. It's the kind of rich, unbalanced opening I would be happy to play with both White and Black.

Based on my impressions so far these are the sources I would prioritoze:

* The Opening Repertoire book by Eric Montany - for 6.Bg5, which I dabbled in even before that book came out

* The Principled Queen's Gambit Part 2 (Chessable course) by Daniel Barrish - for 6.Nge2

* The Sämisch volume of the King's Indian series by Kotronias - for an extremely in-depth view from the Black side

* The ChessPublishing King's Indian section - for ongoing developments

I haven't been that much into the traditional main line 6.Be3, but there is a decent older repertoire book by Svetushkin (ostensibly on the "Anti-Grünfeld") that covers it. I think maybe the recent book by Cheparinov has 6.Be3 too, but I'm not sure - haven't seen that one. But Cheparinov is known as a strong theoretician, so it's probably good.



This is a great list.  Do you have the Barrish course and, if so, is it any good?
  
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Re: Resources on the Saemisch for White?
Reply #12 - 07/29/20 at 15:50:35
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If I remember right, the subtitle was a suggestion from forum members.
  
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Re: Resources on the Saemisch for White?
Reply #11 - 07/29/20 at 15:33:20
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The title of Svetushkin's Chess Stars book, as it appears both on the cover and on the spine, is 'The Ultimate Anti-Grünfeld. A Sämisch Repertoire', so it seems that this publisher at least shared Stigma's concern that potential readers might be lost if the book's content wasn't spelled out.
  
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Re: Resources on the Saemisch for White?
Reply #10 - 07/29/20 at 14:29:47
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Stigma wrote on 07/29/20 at 02:56:47:
Are you seriously claiming it never happens that club players interested in the Sämisch King's Indian overlook these books because "King's Indian" isn't in the title?

People, myself included, overlook all kinds of things. Titles need to be short.
  
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Re: Resources on the Saemisch for White?
Reply #9 - 07/29/20 at 10:24:09
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Eric's book got a recent mention in a review on a book on the Benoni by Ivanisevic, where Eric had launched a novelty; that Ivanisevic thought was a novelty.
  
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Re: Resources on the Saemisch for White?
Reply #8 - 07/29/20 at 03:09:42
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Lars Schandorff also covers the Saemisch (6.Be3) in his Playing 1.d4 - The Indian Defences (Quality Chess, 2012).
  
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Re: Resources on the Saemisch for White?
Reply #7 - 07/29/20 at 02:56:47
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an ordinary chessplayer wrote on 07/29/20 at 02:08:38:
TD wrote on 07/28/20 at 19:09:14:
Stigma wrote on 07/28/20 at 18:59:44:
TD wrote on 07/28/20 at 15:45:07:
Mind you, those books propagate 3.f3 (the "Anti-Grunfeld").

Yes, I know. I just find it weird to cover the King's Indian in detail, which in fact these books do, and not even mention it in the title. The Grünfeld is more respected on GM level, but on amateur level (where most of the readers are) the King's Indian is clearly more common than the Grünfeld.

I agree.

I disagree. If your Anti-Grunfeld succeeds, you get a King's Indian. Why wouldn't almost all the repertoire coverage be on the King's Indian? It's not in the title because it goes without saying.

I don't disagree with a lot of the coverage being on the King's Indian, obviously.

But does it go without saying, for all potential customers? Are you seriously claiming it never happens that club players interested in the Sämisch King's Indian overlook these books because "King's Indian" isn't in the title?

I do believe they have lost a few buyers that way. And now I've pointed out right here that books titled "something Anti-Grünfeld" usually also cover the Sämisch King's Indian. Yes, you and almost everybody here knew that already - so what? I'm happy if just one person reading this learns something they didn't know.
« Last Edit: 07/29/20 at 04:30:13 by Stigma »  

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Re: Resources on the Saemisch for White?
Reply #6 - 07/29/20 at 02:08:38
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TD wrote on 07/28/20 at 19:09:14:
Stigma wrote on 07/28/20 at 18:59:44:
TD wrote on 07/28/20 at 15:45:07:
Mind you, those books propagate 3.f3 (the "Anti-Grunfeld").

Yes, I know. I just find it weird to cover the King's Indian in detail, which in fact these books do, and not even mention it in the title. The Grünfeld is more respected on GM level, but on amateur level (where most of the readers are) the King's Indian is clearly more common than the Grünfeld.

I agree.

I disagree. If your Anti-Grunfeld succeeds, you get a King's Indian. Why wouldn't almost all the repertoire coverage be on the King's Indian? It's not in the title because it goes without saying.

Edit: Not sure why the quoted part expanded like that. All I did was use the quote button.
  
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Re: Resources on the Saemisch for White?
Reply #5 - 07/29/20 at 01:45:57
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HAJS wrote on 07/28/20 at 12:01:45:
I would like to learn more about the Saemisch from White's perspective and wonder where would be a good place to start. What are some good books or other media and who are its biggest proponents at the top level?


My own book, Opening Repertoire: The Modern Samisch, is recent and has received excellent reviews.  Here is one: https://chesscafe.com/book-reviews/the-modern-samisch-by-eric-montany/

Although I mostly cover plans with the bishop going to g5 instead of e3, I cover a lot of general strategy.  There's also a lot of material concerning move orders and earlier deviations, so that a fair amount of non-Bg5 lines are covered as well, and those move order issues are not covered in other books that I'm aware of. 

Good luck with the Samisch!
  
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Re: Resources on the Saemisch for White?
Reply #4 - 07/28/20 at 19:09:14
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Stigma wrote on 07/28/20 at 18:59:44:
TD wrote on 07/28/20 at 15:45:07:
Mind you, those books propagate 3.f3 (the "Anti-Grunfeld").

Yes, I know. I just find it weird to cover the King's Indian in detail, which in fact these books do, and not even mention it in the title. The Grünfeld is more respected on GM level, but on amateur level (where most of the readers are) the King's Indian is clearly more common than the Grünfeld.

I agree.
  
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Re: Resources on the Saemisch for White?
Reply #3 - 07/28/20 at 18:59:44
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TD wrote on 07/28/20 at 15:45:07:
Mind you, those books propagate 3.f3 (the "Anti-Grunfeld").

Yes, I know. I just find it weird to cover the King's Indian in detail, which in fact these books do, and not even mention it in the title. The Grünfeld is more respected on GM level, but on amateur level (where most of the readers are) the King's Indian is clearly more common than the Grünfeld.
  

Improvement begins at the edge of your comfort zone. -Jonathan Rowson
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Re: Resources on the Saemisch for White?
Reply #2 - 07/28/20 at 15:45:07
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Stigma wrote on 07/28/20 at 15:28:27:
I think maybe the recent book by Cheparinov has 6.Be3 too, but I'm not sure - haven't seen that one. But Cheparinov is known as a strong theoretical, so it's probably good.

Cheparinov proposes 6.Nge2. And there is also Sabotage the Grunfeld by Kaufman, who mentions both 6.Be3 and 6.Nge2.
Mind you, those books propagate 3.f3 (the "Anti-Grunfeld").
  
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Re: Resources on the Saemisch for White?
Reply #1 - 07/28/20 at 15:28:27
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I can't really answer your question since I haven't studied the Sämisch nearly as deeply as I want to... yet. But I have many books on it and have played it quite a bit. I always get interesting games. It's the kind of rich, unbalanced opening I would be happy to play with both White and Black.

Based on my impressions so far these are the sources I would prioritoze:

* The Opening Repertoire book by Eric Montany - for 6.Bg5, which I dabbled in even before that book came out

* The Principled Queen's Gambit Part 2 (Chessable course) by Daniel Barrish - for 6.Nge2

* The Sämisch volume of the King's Indian series by Kotronias - for an extremely in-depth view from the Black side

* The ChessPublishing King's Indian section - for ongoing developments

I haven't been that much into the traditional main line 6.Be3, but there is a decent older repertoire book by Svetushkin (ostensibly on the "Anti-Grünfeld") that covers it. I think maybe the recent book by Cheparinov has 6.Be3 too, but I'm not sure - haven't seen that one. But Cheparinov is known as a strong theoretician, so it's probably good.

« Last Edit: 07/28/20 at 21:48:40 by Stigma »  

Improvement begins at the edge of your comfort zone. -Jonathan Rowson
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Resources on the Saemisch for White?
07/28/20 at 12:01:45
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I would like to learn more about the Saemisch from White's perspective and wonder where would be a good place to start. What are some good books or other media and who are its biggest proponents at the top level? Also, I am curious to know what you think of it in terms of theoretical reputation.

Many thanks!
  
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