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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) "Chess for Zebras" - $200 U.S., really? (Read 6518 times)
Jupp53
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Re: "Chess for Zebras" - $200 U.S., really?
Reply #22 - 09/28/20 at 09:30:08
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Thank you Seeley.

Comparing this book of Rowson with any strategy book is like comparing it with an endgame primer. Rowson is about thinking methods and learning:
Quote:
Jonathan Rowson, author of the highly acclaimed Seven Deadly Chess Sins, investigates three questions important to all chess-players:
1) Why is it so difficult, especially for adult players, to improve?
2) What kinds of mental attitudes are needed to find good moves in different phases of the game?
3) Is White's alleged first-move advantage a myth, and does it make a difference whether you are playing Black or White?
In a strikingly original work, Rowson makes use of his academic background in philosophy and psychology to answer these questions in an entertaining and instructive way. This book assists all players in their efforts to improve, and provides fresh insights into the opening and early middlegame.

You can find this here http://www.gambitbooks.com/books/Chess_for_Zebras.html. If the claim of fresh insights into opening and middlegame is correct ... I don't know because I was not interested in this when reading the book. But 1) 2) 3) are treated excellent.
  

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Seeley
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Re: "Chess for Zebras" - $200 U.S., really?
Reply #21 - 09/27/20 at 17:44:05
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Jupp53 wrote on 09/27/20 at 15:12:24:
What is SOMCS?

It's John Watson's book Secrets Of Modern Chess Strategy.
  
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Jupp53
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Re: "Chess for Zebras" - $200 U.S., really?
Reply #20 - 09/27/20 at 15:12:24
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@Bibs

Over all you took something personal not directed at you nor meant to describe you. I would have asked some questions about your perception of the text before. I only took your comment as a hook for an idea.

So all the rudeness is inside your head and not in my one. Except you find it rude that I ask myself such kind of questions. I don't take your response personal. I take it as a simple error, which is something I know too good from myself. I have to work on my own errors.

This part of answer is meant as feedback and end of this aspect from my side. Take it as you like. I reject the claim of any personal attack from my side. I'll read a feedback from your side but be aware I will not answer.

Bibs wrote on 09/26/20 at 23:25:39:
@Jupp. That was really weird. Ugh. Entirely wrong on both. We really don't need the pop-psych tosh here, thank you. Disagreeing does not make one 'wrong', and I politely but firmly ask you to refrain from such. Don't.
...
All, and back to chess, away from the crass, wrong, rude stuff.

As said above, nothing crass, wrong, rude.

Quote:
I'm asked, so I will answer why. My opinion, others may differ, and that's all fine. I disliked the books because: (1) too much unnecessary quoting of assorted random stuff ('look at me, I am clever, and this book is clever'); (2) he would start to go somewhere that might be interesting, stop, then lurch elsewhere else and (3) there was not enough that was helpful in the books.


(1) is clearly an opinion. Define necessary in writing a book. Goethe has imo only written unneccessary boring stuff. This means? It means I don't get what's good about Goethe's writings except some poems, which are really good. And I have read really a bunch fo Goethe's novels, letters, books in hope of finding something good.
(2) Rowson stays on topic in an associative manner and (I cannot judge the english style) but he is great in content imo! I would like to discuss this over the text.
(3) Define helpful. It is full of worthy information you have to prepare for your work yourself. These are imo the best books. But here we may differ too.

Quote:
The only thing I remember of the books was in a Torre v KF. Playing an a4 move, for space. Yes, that's obvious enough to me. And that's it. Huh? No more?

Was it in SOMCS discussing the short-termism of the knights v bishops btw? Get stuck in with the knights, NOW, before things settle. That was a revelation. Wow.


What is SOMCS?
  

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dfan
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Re: "Chess for Zebras" - $200 U.S., really?
Reply #19 - 09/27/20 at 15:05:10
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Rowson is unapologetically rambly and discursive. It's possible to find this charming or to find it grating (or both!). I feel that it's refreshing to have a strong player and keen thinker spew forth lots of his thoughts on a whole host of chess subjects, some of them perhaps mutually contradictory; it's a nice change from the usual delivered-from-the-mountaintops style of a lot of chess books where you are instructed authoritatively. But I can see how a lot of readers might just throw up their hands at it.

For whatever reason, despite loving the above books, I found those characteristics of his writing to be more flaws than virtues in his latest book, The Moves That Matter, which felt like it would have been better as a collection of blog posts.
  
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Re: "Chess for Zebras" - $200 U.S., really?
Reply #18 - 09/27/20 at 14:07:13
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Once again, I ask a question and receive a wealth of advice that leaves me somewhere completely other than where I expected to end up. Much valued!

FWIW,
I found myself asking, "Why **do** I want this book in the first place?" Perhaps the answer is found in Stigma's 1st and Dink Heckler's replies. Too often when you wish someone would just, "tell me the answer." the answer is that YOU are the problem in your advancement. In fact, it is a major clue. So now I have come to believe that "Zebras" is much preferred over "7 Deadly" but is still way too much.[EDIT: way too much money] Further, after reading up reviews on other suggestions I think Tisdall's, "Improve" is much more what I ought to be reading since it is not too dry but will challenge me better than Zebras. But that book can't be had for love or money if I need it before I leave for the beach. I do have a copy of SOMCS, one of several books I ordered before I realized it was way beyond where I was back in February when I started this journey. So perhaps I 'll try that again, or maybe just bring some of my Edgar Alan Poe and just have a good read! (But I order Tisdall from the beach so it will be coming soon after I return.).
« Last Edit: 09/27/20 at 20:07:50 by cathexis »  
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Dink Heckler
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Re: "Chess for Zebras" - $200 U.S., really?
Reply #17 - 09/27/20 at 09:43:50
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I like Rowson as an author because his 'know thyself' mantra resonates with me. I'm at a stage of my life where I'm not realistically going to increase my pure chess knowledge to any great degree, but I can become a lot more pragmatic and eliminate bad mental habits, and I feel Rowson helps me in that regard.

Of course, that's not for everybody, but it's arguably a niche worth filling.
  

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an ordinary chessplayer
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Re: "Chess for Zebras" - $200 U.S., really?
Reply #16 - 09/27/20 at 01:37:48
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Bibs wrote on 09/26/20 at 23:25:39:
I disliked the books because: (1) too much unnecessary quoting of assorted random stuff ('look at me, I am clever, and this book is clever'); (2) he would start to go somewhere that might be interesting, stop, then lurch elsewhere else and (3) there was not enough that was helpful in the books.

I haven't read Rowson at all, mostly because of when they came out, as my preferences were shifting towards chess books that are mostly chess moves. Although it's not a perfect parallel, your list is similar to what I find objectionable in Lakdawala's books. And yet there are people who like his books for precisely the reasons I dislike them.

I think this is what Jupp53 was driving at, that there is no universal sense of humor, just like there is no universal sense of what makes a good chess book. I didn't find those two examples very offensive, but nor did I find them very funny. Maybe they are funnier in German? Or maybe Jupp53 can't tell a joke. Smiley

The point of reviewing chess books, or anything, is to give enough information so the reader can decide for themselves if it's worth reading. Not just "it's good" or "it's bad", but why. So I may think a book is bad, but if I state why then the reader may decide it's exactly the book for them. And over time they get used to the reviewer. This happened to me long ago with the film reviewers "Siskel & Ebert". If they both said a film was good then maybe I wanted to see it, but if Siskel said it was good and Ebert said it was not then definitely I wanted to see it.
  
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Re: "Chess for Zebras" - $200 U.S., really?
Reply #15 - 09/27/20 at 01:12:38
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That's interesting to read of the history of this.

Yes, the Chigorin is an opening where such characteristic positions often arise. I learned quite a lot about using knights from Morozevic (iirc training games v Karpov?) in the Barsky book. Reading that and SOMCS is a good combo in this regard.

Also one sees this in the Nimzo-Indian, notably in 4.Qc2 lines where black replies with ...c5 rather than ...d5. There are some wild lines there. Black lurches forward with knights and the early energy, while white tries to hold him off, with bishops for later.

  
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Stigma
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Re: "Chess for Zebras" - $200 U.S., really?
Reply #14 - 09/27/20 at 00:37:18
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@Seeley:
That Chigorin reference rings a bell - you're probably right. I don't have SOMCS handy here and wrote from memory.

In fact, looking at Mayer's chapter, I had it exactly backwards! Mayer spends the first three paragraphs crediting Watson's Chigorin book and even coins "Watson's rule" - the exact same Watson lines you just quoted.

Maybe Watson in SOMCS at least credits Mayer with expanding on the idea? I still seem to remember he brought up Mayer's book and had a positive view of it.
  

Improvement begins at the edge of your comfort zone. -Jonathan Rowson
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Seeley
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Re: "Chess for Zebras" - $200 U.S., really?
Reply #13 - 09/27/20 at 00:23:42
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Bibs wrote on 09/26/20 at 23:25:39:
Was it in SOMCS discussing the short-termism of the knights v bishops btw? Get stuck in with the knights, NOW, before things settle. That was a revelation. Wow.

Stigma wrote on 09/26/20 at 23:43:12:
Yes, it was SOMCS. Actually Watson credited Steve Mayer with discussing the idea a few years prior, in a chapter of his Bishop versus Knight: The Verdict called Increasing the Speed of Your Knigts.

That's interesting, because I remember first coming across this idea as a junior when it was discussed at some length in Queen's Gambit: Chigorin Defence, a book written by John Watson and published in 1981 – predating Mayer's work by nearly two decades. I've just dug the book out and Watson renders the principle thus: 'Given that a game is in the opening or early middlegame stage ... it tends to be desirable for he who has acquired the two bishops to immediately close the position, and for he who gains the two knights to immediately open it'. Watson then proceeds to elaborate on this idea over the course of a page, explaining that the side with the knights will try to open things up and 'mix it', while the side with the bishops will try to slow things down until 'he can carefully engineer an opening of the position which will emphasise his bishops' natural superiority'. This was radical and exciting thinking to me at the time, which is why both the idea and its source have stuck in my mind for nearly forty years. Either Watson is being very generous in attributing the idea to Mayer, or else he's forgotten that he thought of it himself first!
  
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Stigma
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Re: "Chess for Zebras" - $200 U.S., really?
Reply #12 - 09/27/20 at 00:08:18
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P. S.: If anyone wants to dig into many of the same psychological issues Rowson discusses in another (and hopefully more concise) format, it could be worth looking up the video series Achieving your Chess Potential (The Naroditsky Method 2).

I haven't bought it yet myself and have only watched a couple of free sample videos, so I take no responsibiity for misleading anyone here.  Smiley

But it's hard not to see the Rowson influence in Naroditsky's video titles, starting with 1-What makes chess improvement so hard? and 2-Storytelling.
  

Improvement begins at the edge of your comfort zone. -Jonathan Rowson
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Stigma
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Re: "Chess for Zebras" - $200 U.S., really?
Reply #11 - 09/26/20 at 23:43:12
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Bibs wrote on 09/26/20 at 23:25:39:
All, and back to chess, away from the crass, wrong, rude stuff.
I'm asked, so I will answer why. My opinion, others may differ, and that's all fine. I disliked the books because: (1) too much unnecessary quoting of assorted random stuff ('look at me, I am clever, and this book is clever'); (2) he would start to go somewhere that might be interesting, stop, then lurch elsewhere else and (3) there was not enough that was helpful in the books.

I browsed through parts of Zebras again earlier today, and you raise good points. Too many quotes, personal anecdotes and meandering, repetitive verbiage to slog through before we get to the meat. And I remember Deadly Sins as being even worse than Zebras in this regard.

But I want to give the first book a new look anyway since several of the "sins" ring true for me, on issues like focus, dealing with trends, and time trouble.

Bibs wrote on 09/26/20 at 23:25:39:
Was it in SOMCS discussing the short-termism of the knights v bishops btw? Get stuck in with the knights, NOW, before things settle. That was a revelation. Wow.

Yes, it was SOMCS. Actually Watson credited Steve Mayer with discussing the idea a few years prior, in a chapter of his Bishop versus Knight: The Verdict called Increasing the Speed of Your Knights. It may even mean the side playing against the bishop pair should open the position, contrary to standard advice, to convert the initiative into something longer-lasting. While the pair of bishops are a long-term asset and can tolerate the position staying closed for a while.
  

Improvement begins at the edge of your comfort zone. -Jonathan Rowson
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Re: "Chess for Zebras" - $200 U.S., really?
Reply #10 - 09/26/20 at 23:25:39
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@Jupp. That was really weird. Ugh. Entirely wrong on both. We really don't need the pop-psych tosh here, thank you. Disagreeing does not make one 'wrong', and I politely but firmly ask you to refrain from such. Don't.

I teach literature as part of my job. I also teach grammar. One can like stories, and one can like concrete things. One can like art and poetry, while enjoying maths or chess. Key, take note 'Jupp' and remember this - one can dislike a poem without disliking poetry.

Now, chess...

All, and back to chess, away from the crass, wrong, rude stuff.
I'm asked, so I will answer why. My opinion, others may differ, and that's all fine. I disliked the books because: (1) too much unnecessary quoting of assorted random stuff ('look at me, I am clever, and this book is clever'); (2) he would start to go somewhere that might be interesting, stop, then lurch elsewhere else and (3) there was not enough that was helpful in the books.

The only thing I remember of the books was in a Torre v KF. Playing an a4 move, for space. Yes, that's obvious enough to me. And that's it. Huh? No more?

Was it in SOMCS discussing the short-termism of the knights v bishops btw? Get stuck in with the knights, NOW, before things settle. That was a revelation. Wow.
  
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Jupp53
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Re: "Chess for Zebras" - $200 U.S., really?
Reply #9 - 09/26/20 at 19:38:30
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This is only about the text. I didn't study the chess games and positions, only read what I could get without a board.

I liked Zebra's more than 7 deadly sins. The studies of cognitive science went into the 2nd book so it's hints to information processing are deeper and more exact imo.

As Bibs remarked he didn't like it I have a twofold hypothesis. Some people dislike stories. They want only facts, like lines in an opening book. Then there are people disliking Kmoch or Niemzowitsch for their special kind of story telling. You need a certain kind of thinking to appreciate this.

In the domain of humour I give two examples:
A prosemit is an antisemit loving jews. (True and ironic.)
Four women party and rise a glas of champain each one with the toast: At least we are no niggers. (A joke against misogynism and racism.)
There is a special kind of describing reality in this jokes some people don't get or dislike for whatever reason. Humans are different, so I don't want to blame anyone with this.
  

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Re: "Chess for Zebras" - $200 U.S., really?
Reply #8 - 09/26/20 at 03:59:20
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dfan wrote on 09/25/20 at 17:29:29:
cathexis wrote on 09/25/20 at 15:20:48:
Thanks AOC et al,

Any thoughts on "Zebras" vs. & "Deadly Sins"?

They're both great, and are quite similar in content and style, to the extent that I forget what material is in which. You won't go wrong with either.

True, there's a lot of similarity and the topics are a bit random and eclectic. But the tendency is that "7 Deadly Sins" is more about common human weaknesses that may negatively affect our results, like materialism, egoism, lack of trend sensitivity, overfocus on the desired result, poor concentration, etc., while "Zebras" widens the scope to include more meta-game considerations of chess itself, like the impact of the drawing margin and the difference between playing Black and White.

I remember being annoyed by The Seven Deadly Chess Sins when I first bought it due to all the qoutes and references to quasi-philosophy and Buddhism. But now I'm more into that kind of thing myself (albeit still with an intact bullshit detector, I maintain). So I really should go find it in the attic and give it another chance.

The best way to use both of these books IMO is after you have analyzed and/or seriously thought about a bunch of your own games. Then you'll be attuned to any psyhological factors that may hold you back in addition to the pure chess skill/knowledge issues, and can zoom in on the most relevant chapters. These books aren't training books in the traditional sense; they are more designed to raise awareness and make you think about psychological issues in chess. But that has its place too, especially if it leads to new training ideas or heightened awareness of pitfalls during play.

I want to add one point: While it's easy to get stuck in our chess development because of psychological issues we don't recognize or haven't dealt with effectively, there's also an opposite pitfall of "over-psychologizing" issues that are really more about pure chess skill/knowledge.

For instance, if you blunder a lot, it could be that you really need to do something to improve your focus (mental training, targeted calculation training, better sleep, more physical exercise, etc.). But it could also mean you simply don't know your tactical patterns as well as you should for the level you want to play on. Know yourself.
« Last Edit: 09/26/20 at 20:31:52 by Stigma »  

Improvement begins at the edge of your comfort zone. -Jonathan Rowson
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