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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Symmetrical "Grunfeld" (Read 7079 times)
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Re: Symmetrical "Grunfeld"
Reply #22 - 09/30/20 at 18:12:49
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Like lots of players, I let my moves do the hating. Spiteful words, throwing water, etc. can easily backfire. Difficult people wind up having problems in chessland with opponents doing extra preparation (including collusive preparation), playing to bare kings, publishing gleeful annotations, etc. But yes, as a last resort the martial arts are valuable for "correcting" people who don't understand how to keep it civil, in all walks of life.
  
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Re: Symmetrical "Grunfeld"
Reply #21 - 09/30/20 at 13:11:47
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Stigma wrote on 09/30/20 at 04:03:05:
Though of course rough tackles like that would be even less accepted in a chess match.  Smiley

Back when I was a teenager and just starting out with tournament chess, a guy told me he hated me, threatened to throw pieces at me, and then tossed a bottle of water on me. This was before my Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu days - today I'd "gently" place someone like that on the floor and put him to sleep. Smiley
  
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Re: Symmetrical "Grunfeld"
Reply #20 - 09/30/20 at 04:03:05
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MNb wrote on 09/29/20 at 16:48:33:
The Dutch playing style is always praised for it's beautiful, technical play. What the praisers almost always forget is that two of the most successful teams had some genuine shithouses, especially Johan Neeskens and Jan Wouters.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cfuD282WiWM

You know, until I finally looked at the video I just assumed you were talking about chess and wondered,"who are these aggressive or sleezy Dutch chess players I have never heard of? Must be some legendary team players from the Dutch league."

Though of course rough tackles like that would be even less accepted in a chess match.  Smiley
  

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Re: Symmetrical "Grunfeld"
Reply #19 - 09/29/20 at 16:48:33
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Bibs wrote on 09/29/20 at 12:38:55:
I just want to say that I love the word 'hooliganry' there! It's now one of my fave words, alongside 'shithousery'. For people outside the UK: https://www.planetfootball.com/quick-reads/13-of-footballs-biggest-shithouses-ra...
"Sergio Ramos isn’t a shithouse, he’s a shithotel."

The Dutch playing style is always praised for it's beautiful, technical play. What the praisers almost always forget is that two of the most successful teams had some genuine shithouses, especially Johan Neeskens and Jan Wouters.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cfuD282WiWM
  

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Re: Symmetrical "Grunfeld"
Reply #18 - 09/29/20 at 14:19:38
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Thanks for the hint to the football article. Out of topic but a great lesson in English.  Cheesy
  

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Dum spiro spero. Smiley
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Re: Symmetrical "Grunfeld"
Reply #17 - 09/29/20 at 12:38:55
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I just want to say that I love the word 'hooliganry' there! It's now one of my fave words, alongside 'shithousery'. For people outside the UK: https://www.planetfootball.com/quick-reads/13-of-footballs-biggest-shithouses-ra...
"Sergio Ramos isn’t a shithouse, he’s a shithotel."

But one digresses.

The Hausrath book is good on the double fianchetto KID lines, but oddly seems to miss the Grunfeld stuff. I reviewed the book, but will need to check if I can post reviews.
  
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Re: Symmetrical "Grunfeld"
Reply #16 - 09/29/20 at 12:19:38
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pirc kid wrote on 09/29/20 at 06:52:42:
I didnt like neither the lines where Black plays quickly d5+c5 where you end up in a sort of reversed Benko.

I have enjoyed and scored quite well in Reversed Grunfelds instead, if you haven't taken a look yet.

pirc kid wrote on 09/29/20 at 06:52:42:
Nor the lines when after 1.Nf3 Nf6 2.g3 g6 3.b3 Bg7 4.Bb2 d6 5.d4 and Black can interfere with a quick c5, even followed by Qa5+ and you have to put something on d2 now.

Yes, this is the problem, agreed.

pirc kid wrote on 09/29/20 at 06:52:42:
(f.e. I like some ideas of Svane and Meier in the KID-lines)

I'll check out Svane, thanks!

pirc kid wrote on 09/29/20 at 06:52:42:
I decided to go for the symmetrical Grunfeld anyway. It is the most complicated and demanding part in Sieleckis repertoire in my opinion and a lot of work, but that exactly is its strength, especially the Qc1-lines of the c5-mainline more and more feels like my private territory and -at least in my recent online games- even strong titled players mess this up a lot.

Yeah I think at some point I'll have to just settle on going 6.c4, picking a seventh move, and then force myself to love it.

MNb wrote on 09/29/20 at 08:05:53:
You also could allow yourself some hooliganry and play 2.h4; some pretty strong players have tried it.

I have never outright rejected hooliganry OR tomfoolery.  Grin
  
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Re: Symmetrical "Grunfeld"
Reply #15 - 09/29/20 at 08:06:33
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TonyRo wrote on 09/28/20 at 15:01:32:
but there is worse. What do you play after 1.Nf3 d5 2.g3 g6 3.Bg2 Bg7, or 1.Nf3 g6 2.g3 Bg7? I would play d4 in both cases, but then you don't get that Anglo-Grunfeld option. I could go 2.e4 against the Modern.

You also could allow yourself some hooliganry and play 1.Nf3 g6 2.h4; some pretty strong players have tried it.

TonyRo wrote on 09/28/20 at 15:01:32:
There is a mild downside that in some lines of the b3 KID you are committed to Bb2 too soon, e.g. 5...d6 6.b3 c5 7.c4! is not possible now, you'd transpose to 7.Bb2 cxd4 8.Nxd4 when if I remembering the position correctly, 8...d5! is possible. Not a big deal at all to me (I think my notes I think I thought that 9.c4!? dxc4 10.Na3 was at least interesting),

How about 1.Nf3 Nf6 2.g3 g6 3.b3 Bg7 4.Bb2 O-O 5.Bg2 d6 6.c4 c5 (e5) 7.O-O Nc6 8.d4 ?
Or 6.d4 (iso 6.c4) c5 7.c4 (White has played Bb2 iso O-O)?
The question of course becomes what is the mildest downside; that's up to you anyhow.
  

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Re: Symmetrical "Grunfeld"
Reply #14 - 09/29/20 at 08:05:53
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TonyRo wrote on 09/28/20 at 15:01:32:
but there is worse. What do you play after 1.Nf3 d5 2.g3 g6 3.Bg2 Bg7, or 1.Nf3 g6 2.g3 Bg7? I would play d4 in both cases, but then you don't get that Anglo-Grunfeld option. I could go 2.e4 against the Modern.

You also could allow yourself some hooliganry and play 2.h4; some pretty strong players have tried it.

[quote author=497273644F721D0 link=1601297423/8#8 date=1601305292]There is a mild downside that in some lines of the b3 KID you are committed to Bb2 too soon, e.g. 5...d6 6.b3 c5 7.c4! is not possible now, you'd transpose to 7.Bb2 cxd4 8.Nxd4 when if I remembering the position correctly, 8...d5! is possible. Not a big deal at all to me (I think my notes I think I thought that 9.c4!? dxc4 10.Na3 was at least interesting),
Indeed this issue is unavoidable after 1.Nf3 Nf6 2.g3 g6 3.b3.
  

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Re: Symmetrical "Grunfeld"
Reply #13 - 09/29/20 at 06:52:42
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I also play 1.Nf3 Nf6 2.g3 and I thought I can bypass the symmetrical Grunfeld with 3.b3.

I didnt like neither the lines where Black plays quickly d5+c5 where you end up in a sort of reversed Benko.

Nor the lines when after 1.Nf3 Nf6 2.g3 g6 3.b3 Bg7 4.Bb2 d6 5.d4 and Black can interfere with a quick c5, even followed by Qa5+ and you have to put something on d2 now.

The other repertoire issue is obviously after 1.Nf3 g6

I think a lot of Sieleckis repertoire is even better for Nf3/g3 players, because you are not only extremely flexible, you just can avoid his weakest parts (especially the d5/Bf5 chapters where Sielecki just misses Blacks best setup) and go for Retis instead. And probalby some minor adjustments in other lines (f.e. I like some ideas of Svane and Meier in the KID-lines)

I decided to go for the symmetrical Grunfeld anyway. It is the most complicated and demanding part in Sieleckis repertoire in my opinion and a lot of work, but that exactly is its strength, especially the Qc1-lines of the c5-mainline more and more feels like my private territory and -at least in my recent online games- even strong titled players mess this up a lot.
  
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Re: Symmetrical "Grunfeld"
Reply #12 - 09/28/20 at 19:14:02
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I'll have to look into that one - I think I might have and thought that 3...d4! was annoying. Gotta check my notes on that one!  Wink
  
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Re: Symmetrical "Grunfeld"
Reply #11 - 09/28/20 at 17:38:12
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For 1 Nf3 d5 2 g3 g6 ... You could play 3 c4 here ...

3... dxc4 4 Na3
3... d4 4 b4
3... c6 4 Qa4!?




  
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Re: Symmetrical "Grunfeld"
Reply #10 - 09/28/20 at 15:21:21
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TonyRo wrote on 09/28/20 at 15:01:32:
Hausrath is another guy I follow. Alexander Rakhmanov also tends to be someone not a lot of people talk about, but he reaches similar positions.

Yes, Hausrath is also a player I follow since the release of his excellent book. I don't know Rakhmanov, thanks for the tip!
  
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Re: Symmetrical "Grunfeld"
Reply #9 - 09/28/20 at 15:10:01
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TonyRo wrote on 09/28/20 at 15:01:32:
What do you play after 1.Nf3 d5 2.g3 g6 3.Bg2 Bg7?

Yes, I also found that a difficult position to play against.
  
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Re: Symmetrical "Grunfeld"
Reply #8 - 09/28/20 at 15:01:32
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MNb wrote on 09/28/20 at 14:23:43:
Have you thought of the transposition 1.Nf3 Nf6 2.g3 g6 3.b3 Bg7 4.Bb2 ?

Yes, and this is actually what I was doing for a while. There is a mild downside that in some lines of the b3 KID you are committed to Bb2 too soon, e.g. 5...d6 6.b3 c5 7.c4! is not possible now, you'd transpose to 7.Bb2 cxd4 8.Nxd4 when if I remembering the position correctly, 8...d5! is possible. Not a big deal at all to me (I think my notes I think I thought that 9.c4!? dxc4 10.Na3 was at least interesting), but there is worse. What do you play after 1.Nf3 d5 2.g3 g6 3.Bg2 Bg7, or 1.Nf3 g6 2.g3 Bg7? I would play d4 in both cases, but then you don't get that Anglo-Grunfeld option. I could go 2.e4 against the Modern if I could solve the former issue, but the repertoire would certainly be less compact than reaching the same position in all of these cases. I would definitely go the Anglo-Slav c4+d3 route if it was possible to avoid these transpo-tricks, I like that line stylistically anyway.

CanadianClub wrote on 09/28/20 at 14:32:03:
You have direct line with some strong german GM that plays some of this lines also, haven't you? Wink Or not anymore?

Georg was my coach for maybe two years or so I think - he is a great guy and every once in a while we catch up. I took a break from serious chess for a while, though I feel that bug creeping in again...perhaps it's time to start working with him again. Or at least once it's possible to play chess in person again and compete!

TD wrote on 09/28/20 at 14:34:11:
Georg Meier and Oleg Romanishin are also interesting players to follow.

Romanishin is a good call. Hausrath is another guy I follow. Alexander Rakhmanov also tends to be someone not a lot of people talk about, but he reaches similar positions. Always on the lookout for more of these guys that play these slower and tricky 1.Nf3 and 2.g3 positions. I've always wanted to eventually release a book on my White repertoire called "ZOOM 002", mostly because I think it would be funny and a nice tribute to a book I like quite a bit!
  
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Re: Symmetrical "Grunfeld"
Reply #7 - 09/28/20 at 14:34:11
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MNb wrote on 09/28/20 at 14:23:43:
Have you thought of the transposition 1.Nf3 Nf6 2.g3 g6 3.b3 Bg7 4.Bb2 ?
a) 4...b6 5.Bg2 Bb7 6.O-O O-O 7.c4 c5 8.d4 breaks the symmetry in a more effective way than possible in the Symmetrical Grünfeld.
b) 4...d6 5.Bg2 O-O 6.d4 is the variation you like.
c) 4...O-O 5.Bg2 c6 6.O-O d5 gives White the options 7.c4 and 7.d3.

3.b3 like Hausrath's Double Fianchetto and maybe transposing to Sielecki.
a) 8.d4! Demuth

Georg Meier and Oleg Romanishin are also interesting players to follow.
  
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Re: Symmetrical "Grunfeld"
Reply #6 - 09/28/20 at 14:32:03
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Hi Tony

For me THIS is the line I don't like of the 1.Nf3 + 2.g3 approach against 1...Nf6 + 2...g6 by Black. You have direct line with some strong german GM that plays some of this lines also, haven't you? Wink Or not anymore?

I have access to Sielecki's work but I have not arrived to this chapter yet (I am working on the Catalan right now).

So any extra advice and/or alternatives would be great. Some years ago I checked Hilton&Ippolito and I didn't like their lines, but at that time I was playing d4+c4 religiously and I preferred other lines in the Grünfeld. Now I use the Reti move order and my chess horizons had broadened a little... I'll revisit it again.

Interesting thread Smiley
  
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Re: Symmetrical "Grunfeld"
Reply #5 - 09/28/20 at 14:27:58
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I'm in similar position -- really like the 5... d6 6 b3 KID and have had great results against stronger players there but Grunfeld is tough.

I've been playing 7 b3 and have had okay results against weaker players and the good news is stronger players aren't going for Grunfeld probably because of 7 cxd5 but am not really looking forward to classical games with 7 b3 against equal strength players.

I was looking at 7 Qb3 the other day and somehow 9 Na4 Qxb3 10 axb3 appealed to me -- of course I'm sure Black is fine there but felt like one of those positions where White's pieces are active and has more natural moves than Black.

I was pretty put off my this Svidler - Ding game though with 7 Qb3 a5 8 cxd5 a4 9 Qd1 cxd5 10 Nc3 Qa5 11 Bd2 Nc6 12 e3 Qa6 13 Re1 and the whole White setup didn't feel natural to me at all, but maybe White can try 13 b3 a3 14 Ne5.

I play 1 d4 but coming from 1 Nf3 Nf6 2 g3 g6, have you considered 3 b3?  And only play d2-d4 if Black plays ...d6?  If Black plays ...d5 instead you can play c2-c4 but wait on d2-d4.  I guess in some lines if Black plays waiting moves maybe d4 is the strongest move and it could transpose but at least you cut out some options and sometimes might be able to put the pawn on d3 and play e2-e4 eventually.

You might be able to get games like this:

[Event "Sukooon Resort Indian"]
[White "Swapnil,S Dhopade"]
[Black "Padmini,Rout"]
[Site "chess.com INT"]
[Round "5.3"]
[Annotator ""]
[Result "1-0"]
[Date "2020.05.15"]
[WhiteElo "2495"]
[BlackElo "2370"]
[PlyCount "131"]

1. Nf3 Nf6 2. g3 g6 3. b3 Bg7 4. Bb2 0-0 5. Bg2 d5 6. c4 c6 7. 0-0 Bg4 8. d3 Nbd7 9. Nbd2 Re8 10. h3 Bxf3 11. Nxf3 e5 12. cxd5 cxd5 13. Rc1 Qb6 14. Qc2 e4 15. dxe4 dxe4 16. Ng5 e3 17. Qc4 Re7 18. Bd4 Qa5 19. f4 h6 20. b4 Qd8 21. Nf3 Nh5 22. Bxg7 Kxg7 23. Kh2 Qb6 24. Rfd1 Rae8 25. Qd4+ Qxd4 26. Rxd4 Nb6 27. Rc3 Re4 28. Rxe4 Rxe4 29. a3 Re7 30. Nd4 Nf6 31. Nc2 Nfd5 32. Rd3 Rc7 33. Nxe3 Nc3 34. Bf3 Nba4 35. Nd5 Nxd5 36. Rxd5 Nc3 37. Rc5 Rxc5 38. bxc5 Na4 39. Bxb7 Nxc5 40. Bd5 f5 41. Kg2 Kf6 42. Kf3 g5 43. Ke3 gxf4+ 44. gxf4 Nd7 45. Kd4 Ke7 46. Bc4 Kd6 47. Bd3 Ke6 48. Kc4 Nf6 49. Kb5 Nh5 50. e3 Nf6 51. Ka6 Nd5 52. Bc4 Kd6 53. Bxd5 Kxd5 54. Kxa7 Ke4 55. Kb6 Kxe3 56. a4 Kxf4 57. a5 Kg3 58. a6 f4 59. a7 Kxh3 60. a8=Q Kg3 61. Qg8+ Kf2 62. Qa2+ Kg3 63. Qg8+ Kf2 64. Kc5 f3 65. Kd4 Ke2 66. Qa2+ 1-0

[Event "Lake Sevan"]
[White "Amin,Bassem"]
[Black "Martirosyan,Haik M"]
[Site "Martuni"]
[Round "2"]
[Annotator ""]
[Result "1-0"]
[Date "2017.07.15"]
[WhiteElo "2672"]
[BlackElo "2544"]
[PlyCount "157"]

1. Nf3 Nf6 2. g3 d5 3. Bg2 c6 4. c4 g6 5. b3 Bg7 6. Bb2 0-0 7. d3 Bg4 8. Nbd2 Nbd7 9. 0-0 Re8 10. h3 Bxf3 11. Nxf3 e5 12. cxd5 cxd5 13. Rc1 e4 14. dxe4 dxe4 15. Nd2 e3 16. Nc4 Ne4 17. Bxe4 Bxb2 18. Bxb7 Bxc1 19. Bxa8 exf2+ 20. Rxf2 Be3 21. Nxe3 Rxe3 22. Rf3 Qb6 23. Rxe3 Qxe3+ 24. Kg2 Ne5 25. Bf3 a5 26. Qc2 h5 27. a3 Qd4 28. Qc1 Kg7 29. Bb7 Qb6 30. Bd5 Qb5 31. Qd2 Qc5 32. b4 axb4 33. axb4 Qb5 34. Bf3 Nxf3 35. exf3 Qe5 36. h4 Kg8 37. Qc2 Qb5 38. Qb2 Kf8 39. Kf2 Qb6+ 40. Ke2 Qe6+ 41. Kf2 Qb6+ 42. Kf1 Qc6 43. Qh8+ Ke7 44. Qe5+ Kd7 45. Qd4+ Kc8 46. Kf2 Qc2+ 47. Ke3 Qc1+ 48. Ke4 Qc2+ 49. Qd3 Qc6+ 50. Ke3 Qc1+ 51. Kd4 Qg1+ 52. Qe3 Qxg3 53. Qe8+ Kb7 54. Qxf7+ Kc8 55. Qe6+ Kb7 56. Qe4+ Kb6 57. Qe6+ Kb7 58. Qe7+ Kc8 59. Qf6 Qf2+ 60. Kd5 Qa2+ 61. Kd6 Qd2+ 62. Ke6 Qxb4 63. Kf7 Qb1 64. f4 Qc2 65. Kg7 Qe4 66. Qe5 Qc6 67. Kh6 Qg2 68. Qe8+ Kc7 69. Qxg6 Qg4 70. Qg5 Kd6 71. f5 Ke5 72. Kg6 Qf3 73. Qf6+ Kf4 74. Qd4+ Kg3 75. f6 Kh2 76. Qe5+ Kh1 77. f7 Qg3+ 78. Qg5 Qd3+ 79. Kg7 1-0













  
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Re: Symmetrical "Grunfeld"
Reply #4 - 09/28/20 at 14:23:43
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TonyRo wrote on 09/28/20 at 12:50:23:
just looking to see what the experts here

I am far from one, but you will get my 2 SRD anyway.

TonyRo wrote on 09/28/20 at 12:50:23:
but I really struggle to find something I like against the Grunfeld here.

I suppose you need the skills of Karpov to succeed. I always found it one of his least attractive opening choices.

TonyRo wrote on 09/28/20 at 12:50:23:
I don't expect that White has much of an advantage at all

Have you thought of the transposition 1.Nf3 Nf6 2.g3 g6 3.b3 Bg7 4.Bb2 ?
a) 4...b6 5.Bg2 Bb7 6.O-O O-O 7.c4 c5 8.d4 breaks the symmetry in a more effective way than possible in the Symmetrical Grünfeld.
b) 4...d6 5.Bg2 O-O 6.d4 is the variation you like.
c) 4...O-O 5.Bg2 c6 6.O-O d5 gives White the options 7.c4 and 7.d3.

Perhaps there is a downside to this transpo trick?
  

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Re: Symmetrical "Grunfeld"
Reply #3 - 09/28/20 at 14:16:51
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I have mostly been a 1.Nf3 (Reti/English) player, but the last couple of years I am playing a later d2-d4 (Catalan/KID/GID) more and more. I find those Grunfeld-positions the toughest nut to crack.
  
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Re: Symmetrical "Grunfeld"
Reply #2 - 09/28/20 at 14:06:30
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Yes, the other option I have examined in moderate detail is 7.Qb3 Qb6 8.Nc3 Rd8 9.Bd2!? - relatively solid choice.
  
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Re: Symmetrical "Grunfeld"
Reply #1 - 09/28/20 at 13:20:12
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I am not experienced (yet) in this position, but since I started playing online correspondence chess I have tried 7.Qb3 once, following Hilton & Ippolito and Burgess.

I have played 7.b3 OTB twice, with mixed results.
  
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Symmetrical "Grunfeld"
09/28/20 at 12:50:23
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I am generally playing 1.Nf3 Nf6 2.g3 lately, and man...I hate the position after 1.Nf3 Nf6 2.g3 g6 3.Bg2 Bg7 4.O-O O-O 5.d4 d5. Against 5...d6 I am very happy with 6.b3!?, but I really struggle to find something I like against the Grunfeld here. Does anyone have any favorites? I know Selecki recommends 6.c4, and we agree on the Re1 idea against 6...dxc4, but I am not a huge fan stylistically of 6...c6 7.b3, etc. So if you recommend 6.c4 to me instead of the lesser alternatives, please be specific about your favorites against the solid 6...c6 as well. I don't expect that White has much of an advantage at all, just looking to see what the experts here find practically dangerous and enjoyable. I have had the best luck going 7.cxd5 cxd5 8.Ne5, hoping that they don't know about 8...Ng4!. Cheesy
  
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