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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Chessable Botvinnik English (Read 4160 times)
Michael Ayton
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Re: Chessable Botvinnik English
Reply #27 - 04/12/21 at 12:53:56
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How do you break symmetry?

I was meaning only positions where Black goes for a KID setup with ...g6/..d6/...Nf6 (i.e. already has ...Nf6 in), so there won't be any symmetry. I don't favour e2-e3 in the Pure Symmetrical where Black can copy White's moves -- as I understand it, while there may be a few pitfalls for Black here, correct defence leaves White with next to nothing.
  
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MNb
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Re: Chessable Botvinnik English
Reply #26 - 04/12/21 at 05:18:35
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Michael Ayton wrote on 04/10/21 at 13:29:10:
f e3/Nge2 and e4/Nge2 against Black's ...c5 without ...e5? I like the former myself,

How do you break symmetry?
  

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Michael Ayton
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Re: Chessable Botvinnik English
Reply #25 - 04/10/21 at 17:42:26
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Thanks Tony, that's really interesting! I reckon there's a gap in the market for a book on such English systems discussing strategy in detail rather than just giving showers of moves -- if you wrote it I'm sure it'd fly off the shelves!
  
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GMTonyKosten
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Re: Chessable Botvinnik English
Reply #24 - 04/10/21 at 17:17:10
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Michael Ayton wrote on 04/10/21 at 13:29:10:
Have you any views, Tony, on the relative merits of e3/Nge2 and e4/Nge2 against Black's ...c5 without ...e5? I like the former myself, but perhaps it's just a matter of taste? 


I played them both quite a lot, particularly the Botvinnik setup, although I thought this was just equal. I used to play it against young, theoretical players, who might not be that conversant with all the strategical ideas, and also against strong players when I was happy to play solidly and avoid risks.
I have always felt that the e3 and Nge2 system was more promising, and that White could often get a small plus, so I personally think this is slightly better, objectively.
  
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Michael Ayton
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Re: Chessable Botvinnik English
Reply #23 - 04/10/21 at 13:29:10
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Have you any views, Tony, on the relative merits of e3/Nge2 and e4/Nge2 against Black's ...c5 without ...e5? I like the former myself, but perhaps it's just a matter of taste?
  
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GMTonyKosten
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Re: Chessable Botvinnik English
Reply #22 - 04/10/21 at 11:24:32
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Bulldog wrote on 04/10/21 at 02:14:13:
19. d4 just loses the e4 pawn though, unless I'm missing something?


Yes, but White gets more than enough compensation for it, all his pieces are becoming active, and will probably win it back fairly soon.
I must admit to not really understanding the rationale behind these lines with Qd2 and Bh6 myself, I always went for queenside play in addition to converting the central structure into something favorable.
  
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an ordinary chessplayer
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Re: Chessable Botvinnik English
Reply #21 - 04/10/21 at 10:24:32
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1.c4 c5 2.g3 Nc6 3.Bg2 g6 4.Nc3 Bg7 5.e4 d6 6.Nge2 Nf6 7.d3 O-O 8.O-O Rb8 9.h3 a6 10.a4 Nd7 11.Be3 Nd4 12.Rb1 b6 13.b4 Bb7 14.Qd2 e6 15.Bh6 Bxh6 16.Qxh6 Nxe2+ 17.Nxe2 cxb4 18.Rxb4 Nc5

Bulldog wrote on 04/10/21 at 02:14:13:
19. d4 just loses the e4 pawn though, unless I'm missing something?

How do I know if you are missing something if you don't give any moves? I don't think 19.d4 loses a pawn, e.g. 19...Nxe4 20.Rfb1 Ba8 21.Qe3 Nf6 22.Bxa8 Rxa8 23.Rxb6.

This line is equal, I agree with that. I disagreed with both your assertions that white is losing a pawn...
  
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Re: Chessable Botvinnik English
Reply #20 - 04/10/21 at 02:14:13
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an ordinary chessplayer wrote on 04/08/21 at 17:16:00:
1.c4 c5 2.g3 Nc6 3.Bg2 g6 4.Nc3 Bg7 5.e4 d6 6.Nge2 Nf6 7.d3 O-O 8.O-O Rb8 9.h3 a6 10.a4 Nd7 11.Be3 Nd4 12.Rb1 b6 13.b4 Bb7 14.Qd2 e6 15.Bh6

Bulldog wrote on 04/08/21 at 07:25:38:
... but this simply loses a pawn, to ...

15...Bxh6 16.Qxh6 Nxe2+ 17.Nxe2 cxb4 18.Rxb4 Nc5 19.Qe3 a5

Hi, you should double-check this. 19.Rfb1 looks like a good move to me, and after that the engine doesn't think white is losing a pawn. Also the engine suggestion 19.d4 saves the pawn...


That's true, after Rfb1 White can restore material balance with 19...Nxd3 20. Rxb6.  Although I would still rather have Black's position.  19...Ba8 20. a5 Nxd3 21. Rxb6 Qc7 22. Qe3 Ne5 looks very difficult to squeeze a win out of.

19. d4 just loses the e4 pawn though, unless I'm missing something?
  
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Michael Ayton
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Re: Chessable Botvinnik English
Reply #19 - 04/08/21 at 17:59:47
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Historical notes:  the Rogoff-Smejkal game I mentioned in that old thread was cited by Gallagher in NCO (as unclear) and by Carsten Hansen in his Symmetrical English book (as "with chances for both sides").  Rogoff annotated it for Chess Life & Review (p. 564/p. 20 of the .pdf).
http://uscf1-nyc1.aodhosting.com/CL-AND-CR-ALL/CL-ALL/1976/1976_10.pdf

Great stuff kylemeister -- ta!
  
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an ordinary chessplayer
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Re: Chessable Botvinnik English
Reply #18 - 04/08/21 at 17:16:00
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1.c4 c5 2.g3 Nc6 3.Bg2 g6 4.Nc3 Bg7 5.e4 d6 6.Nge2 Nf6 7.d3 O-O 8.O-O Rb8 9.h3 a6 10.a4 Nd7 11.Be3 Nd4 12.Rb1 b6 13.b4 Bb7 14.Qd2 e6 15.Bh6

Bulldog wrote on 04/08/21 at 07:25:38:
... but this simply loses a pawn, to ...

15...Bxh6 16.Qxh6 Nxe2+ 17.Nxe2 cxb4 18.Rxb4 Nc5 19.Qe3 a5

Hi, you should double-check this. 19.Rfb1 looks like a good move to me, and after that the engine doesn't think white is losing a pawn. Also the engine suggestion 19.d4 saves the pawn...
  
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Re: Chessable Botvinnik English
Reply #17 - 04/08/21 at 17:00:05
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Michael Ayton wrote on 04/08/21 at 16:23:25:
Hi Tony. What I was remembering, somewhat wonkily probably, was this old thread, where in Reply #16 Tony K. writes 'After 7 0-0 and 8 d4 White does have some space advantage, and can count on a small plus - I like playing this myself': http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/chess/YaBB.pl?num=1278109744

Historical notes:  the Rogoff-Smejkal game I mentioned in that old thread was cited by Gallagher in NCO (as unclear) and by Carsten Hansen in his Symmetrical English book (as "with chances for both sides").  Rogoff annotated it for Chess Life & Review (p. 564/p. 20 of the .pdf).
http://uscf1-nyc1.aodhosting.com/CL-AND-CR-ALL/CL-ALL/1976/1976_10.pdf
  
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Michael Ayton
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Re: Chessable Botvinnik English
Reply #16 - 04/08/21 at 16:23:25
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Can you link me to this reference? I have always been interested in this system but never tried it out myself.

Hi Tony. What I was remembering, somewhat wonkily probably, was this old thread, where in Reply #16 Tony K. writes 'After 7 0-0 and 8 d4 White does have some space advantage, and can count on a small plus - I like playing this myself': http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/chess/YaBB.pl?num=1278109744

I don't think more got said but who knows, Tony might see this and give us a brief update? Smiley

  
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TonyRo
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Re: Chessable Botvinnik English
Reply #15 - 04/08/21 at 15:53:15
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Michael Ayton wrote on 04/02/21 at 16:20:35:
If Black goes for a KID setup with ...g6/..d6/...Nf6 I still prefer to meet it with a system Tony Kosten has commended on here, namely e3/Nge2 intending d2-d4, which scores well in my database.

Can you link me to this reference? I have always been interested in this system but never tried it out myself.
  
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Re: Chessable Botvinnik English
Reply #14 - 04/08/21 at 07:25:38
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I've started looking at this more thoroughly -- only through chapter 3 -- but one line that I've really been puzzling over is in the c5 section:

1. c4 c5
2. g3 Nc6
3. Bg2 g6
4. Nc3 Bg7
5. e4 d6
6. Nge2 Nf6
7. d3 0-0
8. 0-0 Rb8
9. h3 a6
10. a4 Nd7
11. Be3 Nd4
12. Rb1 b6

Here the book gives the line 13. b4 Bb7 14. Qd2 e6 15. Bh6, but this simply loses a pawn to 15...Bxh6 16. Qxh6 Nxe2+ 17. Nxe2 cxb4 18. Rxb4 Nc5 19. Qe3 a5 when the rook must retreat and the a-pawn falls.

I spent quite a while trying to find any play for White here and the best I could come up with was an (unsound) idea of pushing the h-pawn:

13. h4!? Bb7
14. h5 gxh5
15. Nf4 h4!
16. Nh5 Nf6
17. Nxg7 Kxg7
18. Ne2 Nxe2+
19. Qxe2 hxg3
20. fxg3 Kh8
21. Bg5 Nd7
22. Bh6 Rg8
23. Rxf7

The final position is better for Black but at least there is interesting, active play for White and some opportunities for Black to screw up.

However I think the line in general may just be better for Black as the knight gets lodged into d4 and it's impossible to remove without either cxb4 or cxd4, at which point the Black knight will (possibly after ...a5) make its way to c5 and hit the two weakest pawns on the board, a4 and d3.


There are also some problems with the lines where Black plays e5+c5 with Nf6.  The book recommends pushing f4, but after exf4 Nxf4 it is just an equal position:

1. c4 Nf6
2. g3 g6
3. Bg2 Bg7
4. Nc3 d6
5. e4 e5
6. Nge2 0-0
7. 0-0 c5
8. d3 Nc6
9. h3 Be6
10. f4 exf4

and I don't see any reason to believe White is better.  Fortunately I think the Rb1+b4 idea works well here, for instance

10. Rb1 Qd7
11. Kh2 Nd4
12. b4 b6
13. bxc5 bxc5
14. Nxd4 cxd4
15. Nd5 Bxd5
16. cxd5
and I can believe White holding a slight edge here since he will be able to add h4+Bh3 to the queenside.  But it is probably pretty tough to win.
  
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Re: Chessable Botvinnik English
Reply #13 - 04/03/21 at 16:16:03
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an ordinary chessplayer wrote on 04/02/21 at 15:40:30:
To my mind more nitty-gritty is more theoretical not less. Smiley  I always prefer more variations and fewer words, so I'm not sure if I should be the one to recommend books for you.


My dream chess book would be focused mostly on the pawn structures (or "fragments"), the major decisions that both players must make, the common strategies used by both sides and how to handle them, and a gallery of common tactical and attacking patterns.  And only then delve into the theory.

For instance in the Botvinnik English, you play Nd5, Black captures and you have the choice of cxd5 or exd5.  This is one of the major decisions White must make and I would like to see a solid section explaining the impact of each recapture and the conditions under which they are good/bad, to help guide players in making this decision.  This is how you truly "master" an opening, not just memorizing cxd5 in this line, exd5 in that one.

The book does a good job of this in a few places, it repeatedly highlights how after Nd4 you should play Rb1/b4 to yank away the defending c5-pawn, and draws the reader's attention to the Bxh3/Nf3+ tactic.  But I would like to see things like this more explicitly laid out.

Kosten's book does a good job of this in many places as he explains some common pawn structures and the features of those pawn structures, common tactical patterns, and the strategies for both sides.  My guess is that most people who read Kosten's book remember all that stuff and don't remember the theory as much.
  
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