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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Chessable Botvinnik English (Read 13857 times)
Darthmambo
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Re: Chessable Botvinnik English
Reply #30 - 05/29/21 at 20:31:18
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So what do they give vs c5 on move one?

Oh so for those who have it, would you use all there reconmendations? Or say maybe vs nf6 go for a kid, or vs e6 no e4, etc....
  
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PatzerNoster
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Re: Chessable Botvinnik English
Reply #29 - 05/24/21 at 13:41:29
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TopNotch wrote on 05/24/21 at 00:50:17:
Palliser wrote a book for Everyman Chess circa 2006 - 2007 entitled "Beating Unusual Chess Openings" guess what he recommends there against the English, you guessed it, the Symmetrical specifically the Botvinnik Triangle.


Back then I used to play this system according to the book against 1.Nf3 and 1.c4 and was quite successful with it (cannot remember any loss).
I think this still is a valid way to play with Black.

With colors reversed, I am not really afraid of this though...
  
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TopNotch
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Re: Chessable Botvinnik English
Reply #28 - 05/24/21 at 00:50:17
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Michael Ayton wrote on 04/12/21 at 12:53:56:
Quote:
How do you break symmetry?

I was meaning only positions where Black goes for a KID setup with ...g6/..d6/...Nf6 (i.e. already has ...Nf6 in), so there won't be any symmetry. I don't favour e2-e3 in the Pure Symmetrical where Black can copy White's moves -- as I understand it, while there may be a few pitfalls for Black here, correct defence leaves White with next to nothing.


Palliser co wrote this course and is a columnist here so perhaps he has some thoughts. BTW didja know that Palliser wrote a book for Everyman Chess circa 2006 - 2007 entitled "Beating Unusual Chess Openings" guess what he recommends there against the English, you guessed it, the Symmetrical specifically the Botvinnik Triangle.

Blows your mind don't it. Roll Eyes
  

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Michael Ayton
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Re: Chessable Botvinnik English
Reply #27 - 04/12/21 at 12:53:56
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Quote:
How do you break symmetry?

I was meaning only positions where Black goes for a KID setup with ...g6/..d6/...Nf6 (i.e. already has ...Nf6 in), so there won't be any symmetry. I don't favour e2-e3 in the Pure Symmetrical where Black can copy White's moves -- as I understand it, while there may be a few pitfalls for Black here, correct defence leaves White with next to nothing.
  
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Re: Chessable Botvinnik English
Reply #26 - 04/12/21 at 05:18:35
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Michael Ayton wrote on 04/10/21 at 13:29:10:
f e3/Nge2 and e4/Nge2 against Black's ...c5 without ...e5? I like the former myself,

How do you break symmetry?
  

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Michael Ayton
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Re: Chessable Botvinnik English
Reply #25 - 04/10/21 at 17:42:26
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Thanks Tony, that's really interesting! I reckon there's a gap in the market for a book on such English systems discussing strategy in detail rather than just giving showers of moves -- if you wrote it I'm sure it'd fly off the shelves!
  
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Re: Chessable Botvinnik English
Reply #24 - 04/10/21 at 17:17:10
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Michael Ayton wrote on 04/10/21 at 13:29:10:
Have you any views, Tony, on the relative merits of e3/Nge2 and e4/Nge2 against Black's ...c5 without ...e5? I like the former myself, but perhaps it's just a matter of taste? 


I played them both quite a lot, particularly the Botvinnik setup, although I thought this was just equal. I used to play it against young, theoretical players, who might not be that conversant with all the strategical ideas, and also against strong players when I was happy to play solidly and avoid risks.
I have always felt that the e3 and Nge2 system was more promising, and that White could often get a small plus, so I personally think this is slightly better, objectively.
  
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Michael Ayton
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Re: Chessable Botvinnik English
Reply #23 - 04/10/21 at 13:29:10
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Have you any views, Tony, on the relative merits of e3/Nge2 and e4/Nge2 against Black's ...c5 without ...e5? I like the former myself, but perhaps it's just a matter of taste?
  
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Re: Chessable Botvinnik English
Reply #22 - 04/10/21 at 11:24:32
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Bulldog wrote on 04/10/21 at 02:14:13:
19. d4 just loses the e4 pawn though, unless I'm missing something?


Yes, but White gets more than enough compensation for it, all his pieces are becoming active, and will probably win it back fairly soon.
I must admit to not really understanding the rationale behind these lines with Qd2 and Bh6 myself, I always went for queenside play in addition to converting the central structure into something favorable.
  
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an ordinary chessplayer
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Re: Chessable Botvinnik English
Reply #21 - 04/10/21 at 10:24:32
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1.c4 c5 2.g3 Nc6 3.Bg2 g6 4.Nc3 Bg7 5.e4 d6 6.Nge2 Nf6 7.d3 O-O 8.O-O Rb8 9.h3 a6 10.a4 Nd7 11.Be3 Nd4 12.Rb1 b6 13.b4 Bb7 14.Qd2 e6 15.Bh6 Bxh6 16.Qxh6 Nxe2+ 17.Nxe2 cxb4 18.Rxb4 Nc5

Bulldog wrote on 04/10/21 at 02:14:13:
19. d4 just loses the e4 pawn though, unless I'm missing something?

How do I know if you are missing something if you don't give any moves? I don't think 19.d4 loses a pawn, e.g. 19...Nxe4 20.Rfb1 Ba8 21.Qe3 Nf6 22.Bxa8 Rxa8 23.Rxb6.

This line is equal, I agree with that. I disagreed with both your assertions that white is losing a pawn...
  
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Re: Chessable Botvinnik English
Reply #20 - 04/10/21 at 02:14:13
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an ordinary chessplayer wrote on 04/08/21 at 17:16:00:
1.c4 c5 2.g3 Nc6 3.Bg2 g6 4.Nc3 Bg7 5.e4 d6 6.Nge2 Nf6 7.d3 O-O 8.O-O Rb8 9.h3 a6 10.a4 Nd7 11.Be3 Nd4 12.Rb1 b6 13.b4 Bb7 14.Qd2 e6 15.Bh6

Bulldog wrote on 04/08/21 at 07:25:38:
... but this simply loses a pawn, to ...

15...Bxh6 16.Qxh6 Nxe2+ 17.Nxe2 cxb4 18.Rxb4 Nc5 19.Qe3 a5

Hi, you should double-check this. 19.Rfb1 looks like a good move to me, and after that the engine doesn't think white is losing a pawn. Also the engine suggestion 19.d4 saves the pawn...


That's true, after Rfb1 White can restore material balance with 19...Nxd3 20. Rxb6.  Although I would still rather have Black's position.  19...Ba8 20. a5 Nxd3 21. Rxb6 Qc7 22. Qe3 Ne5 looks very difficult to squeeze a win out of.

19. d4 just loses the e4 pawn though, unless I'm missing something?
  
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Michael Ayton
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Re: Chessable Botvinnik English
Reply #19 - 04/08/21 at 17:59:47
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Quote:
Historical notes:  the Rogoff-Smejkal game I mentioned in that old thread was cited by Gallagher in NCO (as unclear) and by Carsten Hansen in his Symmetrical English book (as "with chances for both sides").  Rogoff annotated it for Chess Life & Review (p. 564/p. 20 of the .pdf).
http://uscf1-nyc1.aodhosting.com/CL-AND-CR-ALL/CL-ALL/1976/1976_10.pdf

Great stuff kylemeister -- ta!
  
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Re: Chessable Botvinnik English
Reply #18 - 04/08/21 at 17:16:00
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1.c4 c5 2.g3 Nc6 3.Bg2 g6 4.Nc3 Bg7 5.e4 d6 6.Nge2 Nf6 7.d3 O-O 8.O-O Rb8 9.h3 a6 10.a4 Nd7 11.Be3 Nd4 12.Rb1 b6 13.b4 Bb7 14.Qd2 e6 15.Bh6

Bulldog wrote on 04/08/21 at 07:25:38:
... but this simply loses a pawn, to ...

15...Bxh6 16.Qxh6 Nxe2+ 17.Nxe2 cxb4 18.Rxb4 Nc5 19.Qe3 a5

Hi, you should double-check this. 19.Rfb1 looks like a good move to me, and after that the engine doesn't think white is losing a pawn. Also the engine suggestion 19.d4 saves the pawn...
  
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Re: Chessable Botvinnik English
Reply #17 - 04/08/21 at 17:00:05
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Michael Ayton wrote on 04/08/21 at 16:23:25:
Hi Tony. What I was remembering, somewhat wonkily probably, was this old thread, where in Reply #16 Tony K. writes 'After 7 0-0 and 8 d4 White does have some space advantage, and can count on a small plus - I like playing this myself': http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/chess/YaBB.pl?num=1278109744

Historical notes:  the Rogoff-Smejkal game I mentioned in that old thread was cited by Gallagher in NCO (as unclear) and by Carsten Hansen in his Symmetrical English book (as "with chances for both sides").  Rogoff annotated it for Chess Life & Review (p. 564/p. 20 of the .pdf).
http://uscf1-nyc1.aodhosting.com/CL-AND-CR-ALL/CL-ALL/1976/1976_10.pdf
  
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Michael Ayton
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Re: Chessable Botvinnik English
Reply #16 - 04/08/21 at 16:23:25
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Quote:
Can you link me to this reference? I have always been interested in this system but never tried it out myself.

Hi Tony. What I was remembering, somewhat wonkily probably, was this old thread, where in Reply #16 Tony K. writes 'After 7 0-0 and 8 d4 White does have some space advantage, and can count on a small plus - I like playing this myself': http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/chess/YaBB.pl?num=1278109744

I don't think more got said but who knows, Tony might see this and give us a brief update? Smiley

  
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