Latest Updates:
Page Index Toggle Pages: 1 [2] 
Topic Tools
Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Chessable Botvinnik English (Read 3205 times)
Michael Ayton
God Member
*****
Offline


‘You’re never alone with
a doppelgänger.’

Posts: 1883
Location: durham
Joined: 04/19/03
Gender: Male
Re: Chessable Botvinnik English
Reply #12 - 04/02/21 at 16:20:35
Post Tools
I bought myself the book for Christmas. I still haven't had time to go through it really properly, but I do have some thoughts.

In a sense I possibly know what Bulldog means, since it does look as though there's often more emphasis on kingside action than on centre-transformation strategy. Maybe I'm being over-schematic but I always thought of the latter as 'the' main strategic idea behind the Botvinnik (against ...e5): specifically, exf5 followed by d3-d4 changing the structure to White's advantage. Maybe the emphasis, such as it is, on kingside play reflects Williams' style?

The book's upholding of the Botvinnik formation against '...c5 without ...e5' setups from Black did make me wonder whether theory had changed its mind on this at all, since the Botvinnik against ...c5 has often been regarded as solid but less impressive than against ...e5. If there's any new thinking here the book doesn't mention it. If Black goes for a KID setup with ...g6/..d6/...Nf6 I still prefer to meet it with a system Tony Kosten has commended on here, namely e3/Nge2 intending d2-d4, which scores well in my database. You can play this against a KID formation whatever, I guess (Ghaem Maghami seems to be the main specialist); if you know your opponent will play the KID, you can even play d4 on move one! Cheesy

All this said, I do think AOC's point is relevant here -- I find the book's organisation rather confusing, but a lot of lines do receive some pretty thorough coverage, even if (inevitably given the target readership) not on the Marin scale.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
an ordinary chessplayer
God Member
*****
Offline


I used to be not bad.

Posts: 1118
Location: Columbus, OH (USA)
Joined: 01/02/15
Re: Chessable Botvinnik English
Reply #11 - 04/02/21 at 15:40:30
Post Tools
Bulldog wrote on 04/02/21 at 00:16:38:
I feel like there's a lot of potential for a more nitty-gritty Botvinnik book that's less theoretical and more about principles and rules.

To my mind more nitty-gritty is more theoretical not less. Smiley  I always prefer more variations and fewer words, so I'm not sure if I should be the one to recommend books for you. But you may be interested in reading recommendations by others:
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Bulldog
YaBB Newbies
*
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 8
Joined: 03/10/21
Gender: Male
Re: Chessable Botvinnik English
Reply #10 - 04/02/21 at 00:16:38
Post Tools
I purchased this and it is OK but I don't feel like I'm coming away with a mastery of all the different gears and levers of the Botvinnik.  It's a reasonable opening book but I feel like there's a lot of potential for a more nitty-gritty Botvinnik book that's less theoretical and more about principles and rules.  The book has a short section at the beginning with a handful of annotated games that goes over more general principles.  Most of the games involve waiting for Black to make some mistake and then launching into a kingside attack with f4-f5, h3, g4, Ng3, h4, g5.

But playing the Botvinnik System at a high level, you will rarely get such a kingside attack, instead most of the games are going to revolve around the tension in the center and timing with the central and queenside pawn breaks.  I've also found that it's generally pretty easy for Black to lock up the kingside and reach a closed position where the ...b5 break on the queenside is all that's left.

I am also curious what other coverage there is of the "Botvinnik System" against ...c5 setups (actually a c4 Sicilian).  I poked around a little and couldn't find any other books that cover this line in much depth at all, but it is actually very interesting.  In particular, if you want to play the Botvinnik as a general repertoire against King's Indian setups, you have to be prepared for folks to play a move order delaying ...e5 in which case they can play ...c5 once you play e4.

I haven't tackled Marin yet so maybe he covers these Botvinnik systems in more depth?  Or does he only cover the system against e5/Nc6 as Kosten does?
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MW
Full Member
***
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 236
Joined: 04/20/18
Gender: Male
Re: Chessable Botvinnik English
Reply #9 - 12/11/20 at 02:38:44
Post Tools
For those of us living down-under it is also now available through Book Depository...I've been advised by them that my copy is on the way!!
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
TD
God Member
*****
Offline


Feyenoord forever!

Posts: 546
Location: Rotterdam, NLD
Joined: 02/12/11
Re: Chessable Botvinnik English
Reply #8 - 12/08/20 at 20:20:19
Post Tools
Michael Ayton wrote on 12/08/20 at 20:07:44:
Anyone got this book and can comment on it? (But I'm confused. Amazon [UK] is saying it hasn't yet been released and can be pre-ordered, while also advertising a second-hand copy!)

In the Netherlands it is available coming saturday, https://www.debestezet.nl/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=4759
and in Germany next tuesday, https://www.schachversand.de/the-iron-english.html
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Michael Ayton
God Member
*****
Offline


‘You’re never alone with
a doppelgänger.’

Posts: 1883
Location: durham
Joined: 04/19/03
Gender: Male
Re: Chessable Botvinnik English
Reply #7 - 12/08/20 at 20:07:44
Post Tools
Anyone got this book and can comment on it? (But I'm confused. Amazon [UK] is saying it hasn't yet been released and can be pre-ordered, while also advertising a second-hand copy!)

Interesting that he's recommending the Botvinnik set-up after ...c5 (without ...e5). That's often been thought not as impressive as after ...e5 (while still being perfectly respectable of course). Has anything changed here, I wonder?
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
TD
God Member
*****
Offline


Feyenoord forever!

Posts: 546
Location: Rotterdam, NLD
Joined: 02/12/11
Re: Chessable Botvinnik English
Reply #6 - 11/02/20 at 08:02:17
Post Tools
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Krudos
YaBB Newbies
*
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 30
Joined: 04/17/18
Re: Chessable Botvinnik English
Reply #5 - 10/28/20 at 14:11:28
Post Tools
That is very good news - I find it helpful to have a book that goes with such course
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MW
Full Member
***
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 236
Joined: 04/20/18
Gender: Male
Re: Chessable Botvinnik English
Reply #4 - 10/27/20 at 19:19:36
Post Tools
I see Everyman are publishing this in book format under the title "Opening Repertoire The Iron English" due out November...
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MW
Full Member
***
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 236
Joined: 04/20/18
Gender: Male
Re: Chessable Botvinnik English
Reply #3 - 10/01/20 at 19:03:23
Post Tools
TopNotch wrote on 10/01/20 at 16:05:04:
MW wrote on 09/28/20 at 22:21:25:
This question has also been asked in the discussion section of the Chessable course.....seems that 2 e4 is the recommendation against both 1...c6 and 1....e6. 


Is that the recommendation against 1...c5 as well, and if not why not. Wink



No they go for regular g3 set-ups against the symmetrical....as for why, they have just recorded a Q & A on Chess 24 where they cover their reasoning for selecting 2 e4 against 1...e6 and 1...c6. If you are not a Chess 24 member you can still watch the session from the achieves.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
TopNotch
God Member
*****
Offline


I only look 1 move ahead,
but its always the best

Posts: 2084
Joined: 01/04/03
Gender: Male
Re: Chessable Botvinnik English
Reply #2 - 10/01/20 at 16:05:04
Post Tools
MW wrote on 09/28/20 at 22:21:25:
This question has also been asked in the discussion section of the Chessable course.....seems that 2 e4 is the recommendation against both 1...c6 and 1....e6. 


Is that the recommendation against 1...c5 as well, and if not why not. Wink
  

The man who tries to do something and fails is infinitely better than he who tries to do nothing and succeeds - Lloyd Jones Smiley
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MW
Full Member
***
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 236
Joined: 04/20/18
Gender: Male
Re: Chessable Botvinnik English
Reply #1 - 09/28/20 at 22:21:25
Post Tools
This question has also been asked in the discussion section of the Chessable course.....seems that 2 e4 is the recommendation against both 1...c6 and 1....e6.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Laramonet
Senior Member
****
Offline


Gwyddbwll am byth !

Posts: 316
Location: Kidwelly
Joined: 03/16/07
Gender: Male
Chessable Botvinnik English
09/28/20 at 19:32:06
Post Tools
This course has just been published, done by Simon Williams and Richard Palliser. It has an interesting move order e.g. 1.c4 e5 2.Nc3 to get to the Botvinnik. Against e6, it goes 1.c4 Nf6 2.Nc3 e6 3.Nc3 with the Mikenas. However, it doesn't reveal the recommendations against two of the soundest replies i.e. 1.c4 e6 or 1.c4 c6. If they stick with 2.Nc3 this would lead to main line d4 lines and lots of theory. If 2.g3. that's still a lot of theory and strategy to leave to the apparent footnotes of the course. Anyone know ?
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Page Index Toggle Pages: 1 [2] 
Topic Tools
Bookmarks: del.icio.us Digg Facebook Google Google+ Linked in reddit StumbleUpon Twitter Yahoo