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Normal Topic Na6 king's indian in 2020 (Read 1756 times)
BobbyDigital80
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Re: Na6 king's indian in 2020
Reply #8 - 11/25/21 at 18:54:26
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trw wrote on 02/11/21 at 06:14:11:
Sinn wrote on 11/02/20 at 15:13:48:
1) Personally I play it to avoid the forces variation of the exchange king's indian. As black you don't have to fear the exchange variation structure, it favors you. But if white manage to exchange everything thanks to Bg5 and Nd5 the game soon peter out to a draw. So with this move order : 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nc3 Bg7 4.e4 d6 5.Nf3 0-0 6.Be2 Na6! 7.0-0 e5 Now 8.dxe5 dxe5 is far less of a drawing machine. 9.Bg5 is the main line of the original exchange variation with the idea 9...h6 ? 10.Bxf6 Bxf6 11.Nd5! that attacks both the bishop on f6 and the pawn on c7. But now the N on a6 protect c7 so you just gave up the bishop pair for nothing. So Bg5 is a mistake and you can't exchange all pieces.


I absolutely disagree with this btw and so does Vigorito in the chess pub archive and Golubev (probably the biggest expert on Na6 though his book is dated now). dxe5 is listed as one of the main ways for white to comfortably fight for an edge since he's better in this version but I'd argue that it is probably not too difficult to hold. Depends on exact move orders:

Ie 7. 0-0 Qe8 8. dxe5 dxe5  or 8... Qe8 9... dxe5 dxe5 or 8... c6 9. dxe5 dxe5 10. Qxd8 Rxd8 11. Rfd1 Re8 12. h3
Anyways, these lines probably shouldn't worry you.


Which eighth move for White are you referring to in this 8…Qe8 line?
  
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trw
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Re: Na6 king's indian in 2020
Reply #7 - 02/11/21 at 06:14:11
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Sinn wrote on 11/02/20 at 15:13:48:
1) Personally I play it to avoid the forces variation of the exchange king's indian. As black you don't have to fear the exchange variation structure, it favors you. But if white manage to exchange everything thanks to Bg5 and Nd5 the game soon peter out to a draw. So with this move order : 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nc3 Bg7 4.e4 d6 5.Nf3 0-0 6.Be2 Na6! 7.0-0 e5 Now 8.dxe5 dxe5 is far less of a drawing machine. 9.Bg5 is the main line of the original exchange variation with the idea 9...h6 ? 10.Bxf6 Bxf6 11.Nd5! that attacks both the bishop on f6 and the pawn on c7. But now the N on a6 protect c7 so you just gave up the bishop pair for nothing. So Bg5 is a mistake and you can't exchange all pieces.


I absolutely disagree with this btw and so does Vigorito in the chess pub archive and Golubev (probably the biggest expert on Na6 though his book is dated now). dxe5 is listed as one of the main ways for white to comfortably fight for an edge since he's better in this version but I'd argue that it is probably not too difficult to hold. Depends on exact move orders:

Ie 7. 0-0 Qe8 8. dxe5 dxe5  or 8... Qe8 9... dxe5 dxe5 or 8... c6 9. dxe5 dxe5 10. Qxd8 Rxd8 11. Rfd1 Re8 12. h3
Anyways, these lines probably shouldn't worry you.
  
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trw
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Re: Na6 king's indian in 2020
Reply #6 - 02/11/21 at 06:07:15
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That's funny, I was just looking at Kramnik-Radjabov 1-0 from the 2010 Chesspub archive.

Vigorito remarked 1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 g6 3. Nc3 Bg7 4. e4 d6 5. Nf3 O-O 6. Be2 Na6 7. O-O e5 8. Be3 c6 (8... Ng4 is the main move). 9. d5 Ng4 10. Bg5 f6 11. Bh4 11... c5 12. a3 Bd7 ({It is not apparent that the bishop should hurry to this square. The flexible} 12... Nh6 {looks best, with a likely transposition to the game quoted above although White could also try}
13. Nd2 {here.}

What do people think of 13. Nd2? Ne1 seems to be the main move far and away in actual practice but I am not sure exactly what idea Vigorito had in mind when suggesting 13. Nd2.
  
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MartinC
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Re: Na6 king's indian in 2020
Reply #5 - 02/10/21 at 09:34:03
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It does depend how low theory you want this, and how much independent work you want to do. But there's certainly a lot of scope for playing about in that position after 7 o-o.

See Wojtaszek - Caruana in the recent Wijk (7.. Bg4)

LC0 seems to think that these black options all run from 39.8% to 38.4% - ed, Na6, c6, h6, Bg4, Nc6, a5, a6, Qe7. Then all of Re8, Nbd7, b6, Qe8 stay around 37.5%.

Which of these make for genuinely interestingly different play would be a matter of research Smiley Even 'standard' play with different specifics might do it though.

Bg4 obviously has a rather strong validation. If its a workable surprise weapon at 2800 level then absent correspondence....
  
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TakeThePawn
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Re: Na6 king's indian in 2020
Reply #4 - 02/09/21 at 17:46:12
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Sinn wrote on 11/02/20 at 02:18:49:
What's the news ?

I'm interresteed in this variation but all the variation I can find date back to 2011 at least (the bojkov and Perelshteyn videos series).

They're informative and give good ideas but I wonder if they stood the test of time (almost a decades !)

Do black play still enter in the Na6 king's indian ? Was it refuted ? Tell me all about it please !

(And as a bonus question, do you personally play it ? What are your take on it ?)


It's definitely not refuted. I got the book from Burgess King's Indian for the Attacking Player in high school and started studying it. Looks like I've played it 5 times OTB and 3 times in correspondence. I think the critical line is 1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 g6 3. Nc3 Bg7 4. e4 d6 5. Nf3 O-O 6. Be2 Na6 7. O-O e5 8. Be3 Ng4 9. Bg5 where you have to decide between .. Qe8 and .. f6.
  
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Re: Na6 king's indian in 2020
Reply #3 - 11/02/20 at 16:30:21
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Re: Na6 king's indian in 2020
Reply #2 - 11/02/20 at 15:13:48
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Lol

I saw the bojkov videos, the perelshtein videos and read multiple articles I can probably answer to those question with a 2011 mind.

1) Personally I play it to avoid the forces variation of the exchange king's indian. As black you don't have to fear the exchange variation structure, it favors you. But if white manage to exchange everything thanks to Bg5 and Nd5 the game soon peter out to a draw. So with this move order : 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nc3 Bg7 4.e4 d6 5.Nf3 0-0 6.Be2 Na6! 7.0-0 e5 Now 8.dxe5 dxe5 is far less of a drawing machine. 9.Bg5 is the main line of the original exchange variation with the idea 9...h6 ? 10.Bxf6 Bxf6 11.Nd5! that attacks both the bishop on f6 and the pawn on c7. But now the N on a6 protect c7 so you just gave up the bishop pair for nothing. So Bg5 is a mistake and you can't exchange all pieces.

2) I don't know about Qc2!? Stockfish gives a Nb4 Nc6 manouveur with approximate equality.

3) 8. ...Qe7!? is indeed interresting. I didn't know about that one. To me the Na6 variation is so solid of a system you can choose a lot of lines. People really sleep on this variation lol. Very hard to crack and yet not without venom thanks to the early c4 and e4 from white that created a hole in white structure. 9.Bg5 followed by Nd5 is probably the best way to try to crack this black formation but my stockfish always go back to equality in my limited research.

4) The main line was fine in 2011 ! lol But I don't have any ressources on the new one. I don't have chessbase articles or chesspub ones on this computer. I should dig in this direction since no book was written on the subject.

1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nc3 Bg7 4.e4 d6 5.Nf3 0-0 6.Be2 Na6! 7.0-0 e5 8.Be3 Ng4 9.Bg5 Qe8 10 c5 !?

was the only critical line back then. All the other ones were positional line with no real bite. But even this line wasn't able to crack the Na6 king's indian.

A recent game :

I still have a problem with it since I don't know if black can really play for a win in any of the variation that follow white agressive play.


  
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Hale-Bopp
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Re: Na6 king's indian in 2020
Reply #1 - 11/02/20 at 08:59:57
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That's funny, because I wanted to post a question on the very same subject today.
I guess we're talking about 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nc3 Bg4 4.e4 d6 5.Nf3 0-0 6.Be2 e5 7.0-0 Na6.
I'm interested in it because I want to take up the KID as second weapon against 1.d4, and the Mar del Plata seems a bit to theory-heavy for that.

Although I don't know any sources on the subject, 8.Be3 and 8.Re1 seem to be critical?!
8.d5 Nc5 9.Qc2 a5 is a well-known line of the Petrosian that seems ok for Black.
8.dxe5 I'm not so sure about. ...dxe5 9.Qc2!? might actually pose some problems.

8.Be3 is the main line, and here 8. ...Qe7!? looks interesting to me. Now:

9.dxe5 dxe5 10.Nd5 Qd8 11.Qc2 (11.Nxf6+ Qxf6 12.c5!? Nb4 bringing the Knight to c6 looks unclear. 11. ...Bxf6 is also worth looking into.) Ng4 12.Bg5 (12.Tad1!? Nxe3 13.Nxe3 Qe4 14.Nd5 Qd8 15.c5 c6 16.Ne3 followed by Nc4 and Nd6 might put more pressure to Black's position) f6 13.Bd2 c6 14.Nc3 Qe7 looks fine for Black.

9.d5 and here 9. ...Ng4, 9. ...Ne8 and 9. ...Kh8 all look interesting.

What do you all think about those lines and what is the state of theory after the main line, 8.Le3 Ng4?
  
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Sinn
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Na6 king's indian in 2020
11/02/20 at 02:18:49
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What's the news ?

I'm interresteed in this variation but all the variation I can find date back to 2011 at least (the bojkov and Perelshteyn videos series).

They're informative and give good ideas but I wonder if they stood the test of time (almost a decades !)

Do black play still enter in the Na6 king's indian ? Was it refuted ? Tell me all about it please !

(And as a bonus question, do you personally play it ? What are your take on it ?)
  
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