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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) State of the trendy Variation with a6-Nbd7 (Read 1135 times)
TopNotch
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Re: State of the trendy Variation with a6-Nbd7
Reply #12 - 11/23/20 at 22:10:56
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PatzerNoster wrote on 11/23/20 at 22:07:27:
I wonder what happens if Black switches plans and plays 8. ... c6 here?! Doesn't look that terrible to me.


Looks like we were posting at the same time.  Cool
  

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PatzerNoster
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Re: State of the trendy Variation with a6-Nbd7
Reply #11 - 11/23/20 at 22:10:11
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@Topnotch: when I wrote my answer yours wasn't there, we seem to have posted almost at the same time.

Anyway, it seems we agree  Wink
  
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Re: State of the trendy Variation with a6-Nbd7
Reply #10 - 11/23/20 at 22:07:27
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I wonder what happens if Black switches plans and plays 8. ... c6 here?! Doesn't look that terrible to me.
  
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TopNotch
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Re: State of the trendy Variation with a6-Nbd7
Reply #9 - 11/23/20 at 22:02:44
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kylemeister wrote on 11/23/20 at 20:10:45:
Incidentally 8. 0-0-0 b5 was given as "!" in some old ECO/Informant theory, but after 9. e5 Ne8 it only gave 10. f4.


Yeah that b5 move is given an exclam in just about all sources including Bologan, but chess is undergoing a rapid renaissance due to the rise of neural network engines and the like, forcing chess players to re-examine long held evaluations and assessments. To be honest as a diehard KID player myself I really wanted to make that a6, Nbd7 and b5 line work, it would have simplified my life Smiley but alas no such luck, a sample line goes: 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nc3 Bg7 4.e4 d6 5.f3 0-0 6.Be3 a6 7.Qd2 Nbd7 8.0-0-0 b5 9.e5 Ne8 10.h4!? b4!? 11.Ne4 c5 12.h5 cxd4 13.Bxd4 dxe5 14.Be3!? [Route 1 chess, I had to Force Stockfish to focus on this, for some reason it was infatuated by the stupid and illogical 14.Bc5 when for a human it is clear to see this is a play for mate position] 14...Qa5 15.hxg6 hxg6 [15...Qxa2 16.gxf7+ Rxf7 17.Qxb4±] 16.Bh6 Qxa2 17.Bxg7 Qa1+ 18.Kc2 Qa4+ [Stockfish didn't want to analyse any further calling it a draw by perpetual check, so I forced it to do some more work]  19.Kb1! Nxg7 20.Be2! now the real analysis begins, it was around about here that I decided I wanted no part of this as Black even if he can find a draw somewhere with perfect play.

There is one last glimmer of hope for Black players wanting to use this a6, Nbd7 setup and it goes:  1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nc3 Bg7 4.e4 d6 5.f3 0-0 6.Be3 a6 7.Qd2 Nbd7 8.0-0-0 c6!? There are not many practical test here, but Black seems to have more resources than after 8...b5, primarily because 9.e5 is not as killing, Black will follow up with a quick Qa5 only then b5 and hope for the best. This fresh line represents his best chance at generating sufficient counterplay, only time will tell.    
  

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kylemeister
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Re: State of the trendy Variation with a6-Nbd7
Reply #8 - 11/23/20 at 20:10:45
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Incidentally 8. 0-0-0 b5 was given as "!" in some old ECO/Informant theory, but after 9. e5 Ne8 it only gave 10. f4.
  
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TopNotch
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Re: State of the trendy Variation with a6-Nbd7
Reply #7 - 11/23/20 at 19:58:44
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@pioleiva

Yeah you overlooked quite a lot, barely scratching the surface, not enough to just let Stockfish run you have to help point it in the right directions. I suppose Smith could have forgotten something, but that's quite sloppy when the consequences is a quick 1-0, Caveat Emptor I suppose but that brain fart of his really made me second guess everything else presented on the DVD. By the way Smith also stated that he was aware that b4 had been played in the past but thought it was premature in the position under consideration.

The position sucks for another reason as well, but this time a more positional one: 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nc3 Bg7 4.e4 d6 5.f3 0-0 6.Be3 a6 7.Qd2 Nbd7 8.0-0-0 b5 9.e5! Ne8 10.c5!? c6 11.f4 Leading to another depressing position for Black.

What can I tell you, the line maybe trendy for now but I don't expect that trend to last if strong players happen to stumble upon this thread and word gets out. Even if Black could manage to grovel a draw somewhere in this mess, I'm sure this is not what he is aiming for.

Maybe Vigorito will see this and devote an update to it.
  

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pioleiva
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Re: State of the trendy Variation with a6-Nbd7
Reply #6 - 11/23/20 at 19:01:01
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TopNotch wrote on 11/23/20 at 18:23:34:
mxstoe wrote on 11/19/20 at 18:47:15:
Hey, are there any ways to improve on the recen play of White players in the recently popular line with a6-Nbd7 followed by an eventual b5 pawn sac?


I have played this setup for Black but in my opinion if White defers Nge2 and just goes 0-0-0 instead then Black is close to lost!

The line goes:

1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nc3 Bg7 4.e4 d6 5.f3 0-0 6.Be3 a6 7.Qd2 Nbd7 8.0-0-0 b5 9.e5! Ne8 10.h4 c5 11.h5 cxd4 12.Bxd4 Nxe5 All this was suggested by GM (Though I wonder at times) Bryan Smith in a recent DVD entitled Smashing 1.d4 Players with The Kings Indian Defense https://www.ichess.net/shop/smashing-1d4-players-kings-indian-defense-bryan-smit...  Smith now states " I don't see mate and black has excellent counterplay" The only problem is that after the simple and obvious 13.hxg6+- Black can't recapture and he's dead lost. I analysed the position deeply after 8.0-0-0 b5 9.e5! Ne8 10.h4 and concluded that Black is just busted, so if you catch a GM in this line congratulations.

Shame on you Bryan Smith.


Isn't it a possibility that Bryan Smith "forgot" to include 11....b4 12.Nd5 (or Ne4) before playing cxd4 13.Bxd4 and now either Nxe5 (in case of Nd5) or dxe5 (in case of Ne4).

I do not have the fastest hardware, but my Stockfish 12 after  12.Ne4 cxd4 13. Bxd4 dxe5 comes up with 0.00 and a perpetual after either 14.Be3 or Bc5.

Better seems to be 12.Nd5 cxd4 13.Bxd4 Nxe5 and White might be better, but at least Black is not busted and it seems quite complicated. and also White can easily go astray in the complications. The longer my Stockfish is running the only meaningful try it gives for White is 14.f4 Ng4 15.hxg6 fxg6 16.Nf3 Nef6 and the complications continue, but it's nothing conclusive...

Or have I overlooked something rather simple? Of course I have not devoted the time to this position Topnotch obviously did...
  
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TopNotch
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Re: State of the trendy Variation with a6-Nbd7
Reply #5 - 11/23/20 at 18:23:34
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mxstoe wrote on 11/19/20 at 18:47:15:
Hey, are there any ways to improve on the recen play of White players in the recently popular line with a6-Nbd7 followed by an eventual b5 pawn sac?


I have played this setup for Black but in my opinion if White defers Nge2 and just goes 0-0-0 instead then Black is close to lost!

The line goes:

1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nc3 Bg7 4.e4 d6 5.f3 0-0 6.Be3 a6 7.Qd2 Nbd7 8.0-0-0 b5 9.e5! Ne8 10.h4 c5 11.h5 cxd4 12.Bxd4 Nxe5 All this was suggested by GM (Though I wonder at times) Bryan Smith in a recent DVD entitled Smashing 1.d4 Players with The Kings Indian Defense https://www.ichess.net/shop/smashing-1d4-players-kings-indian-defense-bryan-smit...  Smith now states " I don't see mate and black has excellent counterplay" The only problem is that after the simple and obvious 13.hxg6+- Black can't recapture and he's dead lost. I analysed the position deeply after 8.0-0-0 b5 9.e5! Ne8 10.h4 and concluded that Black is just busted, so if you catch a GM in this line congratulations.

Shame on you Bryan Smith.
  

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Re: State of the trendy Variation with a6-Nbd7
Reply #4 - 11/20/20 at 23:04:08
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I don't know anything about this line, but I fired up Lc0 out of curiosity and she recommends 6.g3!? That might be a direction to investigate.
  
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Re: State of the trendy Variation with a6-Nbd7
Reply #3 - 11/20/20 at 11:27:35
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Yes , that is the line i meant. Are there any ways to deviate for white which are still promising?

  
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Re: State of the trendy Variation with a6-Nbd7
Reply #2 - 11/19/20 at 19:34:18
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I assume it refers to (to use the move order in the latest KID update) 5.Nge2 a6 6.f3 0-0 7.Be3 Nbd7 8.Qd2 b5.
  
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Re: State of the trendy Variation with a6-Nbd7
Reply #1 - 11/19/20 at 19:10:55
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Could you tell us what all the other moves are, please? Thanks.
  
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State of the trendy Variation with a6-Nbd7
11/19/20 at 18:47:15
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Hey, are there any ways to improve on the recen play of White players in the recently popular line with a6-Nbd7 followed by an eventual b5 pawn sac?
  
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