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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Fishbein on French Exchange (Read 5537 times)
MNb
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Re: Fishbein on French Exchange
Reply #29 - 05/24/21 at 05:37:22
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an ordinary chessplayer wrote on 05/23/21 at 17:28:15:
7...Bf5!? 8.Bxf5 Nxf5 9.Re1+ Nge7 I'm not sure how white should "punish" this

He/she shouldn't even try, with or without scare quotes.
Btw Black has a very easy game after 8...Qxf5 iso the more ambitious 8...Nxf5.

an ordinary chessplayer wrote on 05/23/21 at 17:28:15:
..... certainly not by 10.Qd3 O-O 11.Nbd2 Qd7 12.Nf1 when black is tempo ahead of Spraggett - Rocha (there the wN is already on g3).

Black can do better as the game transposes to Samblic-Jurkovic, Bizovac 2006 with 10...Qd7 11.Nbd2 f6. GM Fishbein can say what he wants, with this move Black controls square e5 forever. Here Black also has a slight lead in development while White has to make a decicion: 12.b4 O-O, 12.Nf1 O-O-O. It seems to me that the fairly neutral 12.a4 maintains equality. As Black I would be pretty confident against a weaker opponent though; in this sense Black has won the opening battle.
But White has several better moves than 10.Qd3: 10.a4 (idea 11.Na3), 10.Ne5  and 10.Qb3 should all be fine without pretending an opening edge.

an ordinary chessplayer wrote on 05/23/21 at 17:28:15:
Fishbein doesn't analyze any alternatives for either side.

I am not surprised. Yet 6...Nge7 was already played by Nimzovitch in 1927 and 7...Bf5 more than ten times in the previous century.
Thanks for confirming my thoughts on GM Fishbein as expressed in previous comments.
  

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Re: Fishbein on French Exchange
Reply #28 - 05/23/21 at 17:54:12
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an ordinary chessplayer wrote on 05/23/21 at 17:28:15:
Which book is Moskalenko's latest?

Published last month:
https://www.newinchess.com/the-fully-fledged-french
  
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an ordinary chessplayer
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Re: Fishbein on French Exchange
Reply #27 - 05/23/21 at 17:28:15
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MNb wrote on 05/23/21 at 06:23:23:
an ordinary chessplayer wrote on 05/22/21 at 21:22:31:
4.Nf3 Nc6 5.c3 Bd6 6.Bd3 Nge7 7.O-O Bg4 8.Re1 Qd7 9.Nbd2 O-O-O { ?! --Fishbein pg.176 }
  ( 9...O-O Fressinet - Short, World rapid ch, Riadh 2017 --Fishbein pg.180-182 (game74))
10.b4 Ng6 Thavandiran - So, PRO League 2019 (1/2, 53) --Fishbein pg.176-178 (game 72)
  ( 10...Rde8 Stojchev - Jacimovic, Struga 2012 (1/2, 18) --Fishbein pg.178-179 (game73) RR Fishbein says white was winning in the final position.


Interesting. A few years ago I looked at this via 4.Bd3 Nc6 5.c3 Bd6 6.Nf3 from Black's perspective and concluded that White has the better attacking chances after 10.b4, ie castling queenside is too risky. Then I looked at 9...f6 (iso 9...O-O-O) and concluded that Black's best is castling kingside followed by ...Bf5. Finally I wondered if Black can save a tempo with 6...Nge7 (iso 6...Bg4) followed by 7...Bf5 as pointed out by GM Moskalenko in his latest book on the French; only after 7.Qc2 Black plays Bg4 as in Braga-Moskalenko, Barbera 2001. Black claims to play an improved version of the Thavandiran-So game, because Qc2 is a suboptimal move.
Just my two SRD (worth less than ever in this time of inflation).

Which book is Moskalenko's latest? Fishbein has in his bibliography Moskalenko (2015) The Even More Flexible French.

1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.exd5

Spraggett says "!". For some strange reasons I am interested in this line for white. One contributor is an important tournament I played as a junior, which I won because of three games in the Exchange French, none of which involved me! In the second one, the top-ranked player was held to a draw, later allowing me to finish 1/2-point in first. Yet objectively the move deserves "?!" because it gives away all white's positional advantage and reduces it strictly to the first move. It's an uncommon case of an opening I have looked at a lot, yet played hardly ever. However it's not completely a wasted effort -- my record on the black side of the Exchange French is outstanding.

3...exd5 4.Nf3 Nc6 5.c3

Fishbein has
  • 5.Bb5 - 6 games
  • 5.c3/5.Bd3 - 3 games
  • 5.Nc3!? - 3 games
  • 5.h3!? - 1 game
This is the only place in the book, except for the Introduction (chapter 1), where he gives more than one line for white. I speculate that previously he played 5.Bb5 and now he doesn't really have an answer.

5.Bd3 Bg4 6.O-O Bd6 Fressinet - Short move order, I was sure must have been a typo, or a double-inaccuracy in a rapid game, but no: 6...Nxd4 7.Qe1+ Ne6 8.Ne5 +=. Should the GM have mentioned this? Perhaps he just expects *all* his readers to be able to figure this out with an engine's help.

5...Bd6 6.Bd3 Nge7 7.O-O Bg4

This is the Stojchev - Jacimovic move order. Between 5.c3/5.Bd3 and 9.Re1 Fishbein doesn't analyze any alternatives for either side, nor in his other two games in this line. 7...Bf5!? 8.Bxf5 Nxf5 9.Re1+ Nge7 I'm not sure how white should "punish" this, certainly not by 10.Qd3 O-O 11.Nbd2 Qd7 12.Nf1 when black is tempo ahead of Spraggett - Rocha (there the wN is already on g3).

8.Nbd2 Qd7 9.Re1

In the notes to Thavandiran - So, he quotes Spraggett - Rivera, Lisbon 2014, but he doesn't seem to be aware of Spraggett's article on the Exchange French. See spraggettonchess.com 2016.11.04 at archive.org.
  • 9...f6 10.Nf1 O-O-O 11.b4 +/- (1:0, 57) Spraggett - Stella, Figuera da Foz 2016
  • 9...O-O-O 10.b4 +/- (1:0, 59) Spraggett - Rivera, Lisbon 2014
  • 9...O-O "small edge" according to Spraggett 10.Nf1 Bf5 11.Ng3 (Fishbein gives instead 11.Ne3 and 11.Be2) Bxd3 12.Qxd3 Bxg3?! 13.hxg3 (1:0, 33) Spraggett - Rocha, Ponto Delgado 2016

I wouldn't be at all surprised if 9...O-O "small edge" turns out to be "no edge". Unfortunately black won't have many winning chances with same side castling.
  
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Re: Fishbein on French Exchange
Reply #26 - 05/23/21 at 08:58:00
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Just because its amusing - after 5 Bg5 there, Leela is very gently keen on 5...h6 ^ 6 Bh4 g5 7 Bg3 Bg7 and Ne4. That definitely unbalances the position!
  
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Re: Fishbein on French Exchange
Reply #25 - 05/23/21 at 06:23:23
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an ordinary chessplayer wrote on 05/22/21 at 21:22:31:
4.Nf3 Nc6 5.c3 Bd6 6.Bd3 Nge7 7.O-O Bg4 8.Re1 Qd7 9.Nbd2 O-O-O { ?! --Fishbein pg.176 }
  ( 9...O-O Fressinet - Short, World rapid ch, Riadh 2017 --Fishbein pg.180-182 (game74))
10.b4 Ng6 Thavandiran - So, PRO League 2019 (1/2, 53) --Fishbein pg.176-178 (game 72)
  ( 10...Rde8 Stojchev - Jacimovic, Struga 2012 (1/2, 18) --Fishbein pg.178-179 (game73) RR Fishbein says white was winning in the final position.


Interesting. A few years ago I looked at this via 4.Bd3 Nc6 5.c3 Bd6 6.Nf3 from Black's perspective and concluded that White has the better attacking chances after 10.b4, ie castling queenside is too risky. Then I looked at 9...f6 (iso 9...O-O-O) and concluded that Black's best is castling kingside followed by ...Bf5. Finally I wondered if Black can save a tempo with 6...Nge7 (iso 6...Bg4) followed by 7...Bf5 as pointed out by GM Moskalenko in his latest book on the French; only after 7.Qc2 Black plays Bg4 as in Braga-Moskalenko, Barbera 2001. Black claims to play an improved version of the Thavandiran-So game, because Qc2 is a suboptimal move.
Just my two SRD (worth less than ever in this time of inflation).
  

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Re: Fishbein on French Exchange
Reply #24 - 05/22/21 at 23:19:38
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Yes, in a note on page 179 he answers 9...f6!? with 10.a4 "I don't think the weakness on e6 can help black in the long term". After a short variation "White has some initiative, although black's position is solid".

It's not a "secrets" type book, there are no N! moves. I have no doubt Fishbein is not telling us everything he knows. It's mostly a proposed repertoire for white, plus illustrative games giving typical play in some "other" Exchange French lines. There are examples of sub-optimal play by both sides, with Fishbein explaining what would have been better. Other players may not like that, wanting only the best moves, but I find second-rate (e.g. second-rate to a GM) play very helpful for understanding an opening. The book doesn't proclaim anything revolutionary for white. It's just an opening Fishbein likes and has played for a long time.

Fishbein - Gulko, Philadelphia 1993 (1:0, 57) pages 101-103 (game 39) Edited:
fixed the game number

https://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1054340

1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.exd5 exd5 4.Nf3 Nf6 5.Bg5

Here's an example of sub-optimal play. Fishbein says this works against everything except 5...Bd6!, and on page 108 he explains this in words but no moves. Even so, 5.Bg5 has been played quite a bit, and it seems the rationale for 5...Bd6! must not be super-obvious even to strong players, since they often play something else.

5...Be7 6.Bd3 Bg4 7.O-O O-O 8.Nbd2 h6 9.Bh4 c5 10.dxc5 Bxc5 11.c3 Nc6 12.Qa4

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Position after 12.Qa4

Quote:
"!" This was very good home preparation. I had been studying with grandmaster Gregory Kaidanov the year before. I don't remember in what exact context we were analyzing the Exchange French. In this position I suggested 12.Qb3, but Gregory proposed a less obvious, but much better move, 12.Qa4. It asks the black bishop an unpleasant question.
--Fishbein, page 101

To be honest, black looks pretty solid after the game's 12...Be6 or the possible 12...Bd7 in a note. Gulko must have been annoyed to lose. But if white has studied this type of position and knows exactly what to do with it, it seems a valid way to play.
  
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Re: Fishbein on French Exchange
Reply #23 - 05/22/21 at 22:05:08
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an ordinary chessplayer wrote on 05/22/21 at 21:22:31:
  • 5.c3 Bd6 6.Bd3 Nge7 7.O-O Bg4 8.Re1 Qd7 9.Nbd2 O-O-O { ?! --Fishbein pg.176 }
      ( 9...O-O Fressinet - Short, World rapid ch, Riadh 2017 --Fishbein pg.180-182 (game74))
    10.b4 Ng6 Thavandiran - So, PRO League 2019 (1/2, 53) --Fishbein pg.176-178 (game 72)
      ( 10...Rde8 Stojchev - Jacimovic, Struga 2012 (1/2, 18) --Fishbein pg.178-179 (game73) RR Fishbein says white was winning in the final position. )

I wonder if he addresses 9...f6, which came up here a decade ago.
https://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/chess/YaBB.pl?num=1308353396/25#25
  
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Re: Fishbein on French Exchange
Reply #22 - 05/22/21 at 21:22:31
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Quote:
To be honest, my first reaction is: why would anyone buy this rather than Sielecki's "Keep it Simple 1.e4" and get a full e4 repertoire to boot.


Well obviously Fishbein has a lot more material on the Exchange French: Fishbein 240 pages vs Sielecki 43 pages. Since the page sizes are different, I randomly selected two consecutive pages for each author to compare:

Author/page   moves words diagrams
Fishbein/140   83   233   2
Fishbein/141   47    85   4
Sielecki/252   54   244   2
Sielecki/253   36   242   3


I compared Fishbein to Sielecki in the, in my opinion, important 4...Nc6 variation. It's a bit of a difference. Sielecki doesn't analyze 11...Be6 at all. Fishbein analyzes only 11...Be6. When I read Sielecki I was hesitant about this line with 5.Bb5 Bd6 6.c4 dxc4 7.d5, and reading Fishbein reinforces my hesitation. Unfortunately, Sielecki offers white no help if this line does not lead anywhere. Fishbein gives some alternatives, and although I'm not convinced white has anything in those lines either, at least white is not stuck playing the exact same nothing position every time.

1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.exd5 exd5 4.Nf3 Nc6

  5.Bb5


Quote:
This is the only testing move. White needs to have something concrete against ...Bd6 / ...Nge7. A lame move like 5.Bd3 leads nowhere after 5...Bg4.
--Sielecki pg.252

Quote:
John Watson convincingly shows that the line with Bf1-b5 and the trade on c6 (sic) gives white nothing. We will propose three other ways of playing against ...Nc6.
--Fishbein pg.163

  • 5.c3 Bd6 6.Bd3 Nge7 7.O-O Bg4 8.Re1 Qd7 9.Nbd2 O-O-O { ?! --Fishbein pg.176 }
      ( 9...O-O Fressinet - Short, World rapid ch, Riadh 2017 --Fishbein pg.180-182 (game74))
    10.b4 Ng6 Thavandiran - So, PRO League 2019 (1/2, 53) --Fishbein pg.176-178 (game 72)
      ( 10...Rde8 Stojchev - Jacimovic, Struga 2012 (1/2, 18) --Fishbein pg.178-179 (game73) RR Fishbein says white was winning in the final position. )
  • 5.Nc3!? Bg4
      ( 5...Bb4 6.Bd3 transposes to chapter 10 3.Nc3 Bb4 4.exd5 exd5 5.Bd3 Nc6 6.Nf3 --Fishbein pg.183 )
    6.Bb5 Ne7 Hovhannisyan - Grigoryan, Yerevan 2015 (1:0, 37) --Fishbein pg.183-185 (game 75)
      ( 6...Nf6 (by transposition) Fischer - Petrosian, c final (9), Buenos Aires 1971 (1:0,46) --Fishbein pg.185-186 (game 76) )
  • 5.h3!? Fishbein - Shetty, World Open, Arlington 2014 (1:0, 33) --Fishbein pg.186-189 (game 77)

  5...Bd6 6.c4 dxc4 7.d5 a6 8.Ba4 b5 9.dxc6 bxa4 10.O-O Ne7 11.Qxa4

11.Nbd2

Quote:
This is not yet popular, but it is better than 11.Qa4. I think that white retains a small edge after this move. It is nothing special, but it's the kind of position you will win sometimes and should never lose. After already having completed my analysis I noticed that Axel Smith recommends the same approach in his _e3 Poison_ book - an additional stamp of approval.
--Sielecki pg.253.
4...Nc6 is better in comparison (to 4...Bg4), but I still feel that rather white is calling the shots here. Make sure to study this line until the end. It is usually chosen by theoretically prepared people who will know more than just up to move 11.
--Sielecki pg.255

Quote:
A more subtle move order is 11.Nbd2, and here John Watson's prescription of 11...Be6! is effective ...
--Fishbein pg.167


* * * * * * * *
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Position after 11.Nbd2

11...Be6 analysis to move 18 (=) and in parenthesis quoting Davletbayeva - X.Zhang, Asian Continental women's 2015 to move 16 (=) --Fishbein pg.167
    ( 11...c3 quoting Meier - Bluebaum, Dresden 2017 to move 18 (+=) --Sielecki pg.253-254 (variation B1) )
    ( 11...O-O analysis to move 16 (+=) --Sielecki pg.254 (variation B2) )

  11...O-O

11...Rb8 Turova - Rajlich, Budapest 2005 (0:1, 38) --Fishbein pg.167-169 (game 68)

  12.Nbd2 Gelfand - Alekseev, World rapid ch, St Petersburg 2018 (1:0, 32) --Fishbein pg.165-167 (game67)

12.Qxc4 Kasparov - Bareev, rapid, Paris 1991 (1:0, 46) --Fishbein pg.163-165 (game 66)
  

FishbeinSielecki.pgn ( 3 KB | 22 Downloads )
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Re: Fishbein on French Exchange
Reply #21 - 05/20/21 at 21:10:08
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I commented on Fishbein's book in the Opening Repertoire How-To thread.
https://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/chess/YaBB.pl?num=1614190532/35#35
  
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Re: Fishbein on French Exchange
Reply #20 - 12/23/20 at 13:37:19
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I have never played the Exchange Variation with White but since I have some experience from Black´s side I´m tempted to try 3.exd5 exd5 4.Bd3 Nc6 5.Bb5!? someday.
  
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Re: Fishbein on French Exchange
Reply #19 - 12/23/20 at 07:11:36
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FreeRepublic wrote on 12/18/20 at 00:08:08:
That said, I do not see how white can be any worse in a symmetrical position where he is a tempo up..

There is one disadvantage with being a tempo up - White has to reveal his/her intentions first. A simple example: after 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.exd5 exd5 4.Bd3 Black has Nc6. White won't get that position with an extra tempo after 4.Nc3 because Black can deviate, especially with ...Bb4. At the other hand 4.Bb5+ doesn't make sense.
Of course you're right that this is not nearly enough to argue for Black having an edge. Still Black can use this to maximize winning chances.
The only reason that there is no theory on the French Exchange is that nobody has written a book on it with systematical research. There is an abundance of games, even on (near) GM level.
  

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Re: Fishbein on French Exchange
Reply #18 - 12/22/20 at 20:04:03
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Quote:
I'm not sure there is that much theory on the exchange French.


Some of the positions that can arise when White plays lines involving c4 can also arise, admittedly sometimes with tempo differences from the Queens Gambit Accepted and the Petrov.
  
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Re: Fishbein on French Exchange
Reply #17 - 12/18/20 at 06:58:55
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Of course black isn't better, I was making a joke. Spraggett on his website said the Exchange Variation was best(!), so there is one strong player. Some GM-types I associate with the Exchange Variation: Morphy, Maroczy, Shaked, Ashley, Miezes. There are others but I forget at the moment. But aside from Spraggett I don't think any of them claimed it was advantageous for white.

I've looked at it carefully and think white has, as one GM says, "practical chances only". Sielecki's assessments in his 1.e4 book are, in my view, airily over-confident about white's play. In most of those IQP positions, even if white has a slight initiative, I would rather be black.
  
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Re: Fishbein on French Exchange
Reply #16 - 12/18/20 at 00:08:08
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I have never been tempted to play the exchange variation as white. 3e5, 3Nd2, and 3 Nc3 are more threatening in my, and most everyone else's, opinion. That said, I do not see how white can be any worse in a symmetrical position where he is a tempo up.

I think there is a bias against symmetry, and against the symmetrical choice. Most players just don't care for symmetrical positions. These biases tend to slide into evaluations. So we learn that white is better in the symmetrical Petroff, but White has nothing in the symmetrical French exchange variation, or the exchange Slav. Whichever side chooses symmetry has made a strategic mistake.

Curiously enough Black scores better in the exchange French. However I think that is due to the black being the better player. Perhaps it is time for a strong player to champion the exchange variation.
  
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Re: Fishbein on French Exchange
Reply #15 - 12/15/20 at 10:25:27
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MNb wrote on 12/09/20 at 17:36:24:
Aha. It doesn't occur to you that I misunderstood your Straggler's comment and thought your his question was about GM Fishbein's book on the Scotch Gambit?
OK.

You didn't misunderstand my comment. I'm sure my standards are not as high as yours: I am but a humble patzer trying to put together a repertoire for my young pupil, and for this purpose I have found Fishbein's book useful. But I am having trouble following your criticism about Weeramantry-Curdo. Were you perhaps thinking of Weeramantry-Brooks, Chicago 1994, which in 2011 you thought (no doubt rightly) was equal? But perhaps we should pursue this in the 1.e4 e5 section. I couldn't find a thread on Fishbein's book.
  
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