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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Why do coaches recommend the Accelerated Dragon? (Read 1808 times)
XChess1971
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Re: Why do coaches recommend the Accelerated Dragon?
Reply #43 - 01/12/21 at 14:45:06
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Bibs wrote on 01/11/21 at 03:13:15:
Let's avoid going down that rabbit hole again, eh.

If we can just say that += means one side is pressing, and the other is slightly on the back foot. One side has it easier to play, the other more difficult. That's what it is.

If that may ultimately mean 'draw' in perfect chess, or not, that can be put to one side perhaps. Why? As this is practical chess, and I presume that most or all writing here are humans. Generally we would prefer to have something in our favour, than something against us. Yes? Agree? Good.



Not only practical chess players. Also correspondence chess players that keep up with the latest!
  
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Lauri Torni
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Re: Why do coaches recommend the Accelerated Dragon?
Reply #42 - 01/11/21 at 15:16:57
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an ordinary chessplayer wrote on 01/11/21 at 08:13:52:
Except for white's extra tempo in the Exchange French! Tongue


Indeed  Grin
  

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an ordinary chessplayer
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Re: Why do coaches recommend the Accelerated Dragon?
Reply #41 - 01/11/21 at 08:13:52
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Except for white's extra tempo in the Exchange French! Tongue
  
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Bibs
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Re: Why do coaches recommend the Accelerated Dragon?
Reply #40 - 01/11/21 at 03:13:15
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Let's avoid going down that rabbit hole again, eh.

If we can just say that += means one side is pressing, and the other is slightly on the back foot. One side has it easier to play, the other more difficult. That's what it is.

If that may ultimately mean 'draw' in perfect chess, or not, that can be put to one side perhaps. Why? As this is practical chess, and I presume that most or all writing here are humans. Generally we would prefer to have something in our favour, than something against us. Yes? Agree? Good.

  
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XChess1971
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Re: Why do coaches recommend the Accelerated Dragon?
Reply #39 - 01/10/21 at 19:00:45
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Syzygy wrote on 01/10/21 at 02:26:10:
XChess1971 wrote on 01/10/21 at 00:26:28:
bragesjo wrote on 01/08/21 at 11:36:15:
Syzygy wrote yesterday at 04:15:39:
In the delayed Alapin, the problem line is 1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 g6 3. c3 d5 4. exd5 Qxd5 5. d4 Bg7 6. Nbd2! when I haven't been able to find a clear path to equality for Black. This is another variation to keep in mind for those who prefer the Hyper-Accelerated move-order.


5...Nc6 is recommended by Raja


Yes, I also have Raja's book, but 5...Nc6 is not impressive. One good line is 6. Be3 Bg7 7. dxc5 Qxd1 8. Kxd1 Nf6 9. Bc4 O-O 10. Nbd2 Rd8 11. a4!?, intending to gain queenside space, when White is just better.

A possible continuation might be 11...Na5 12. Ba2 Nd5 13. Re1 Nc6 14. a5! +=


In many positions the += is relative and only deeper analysis show proof whether is good or not for one side or another.. I have analyzed positions all the way up to move 40 to be able to realize that what the computer says in the beginning as += in the end is ==. You can't expect a computer to say 0.00. It will never happen. You will have to analyze deeper.
  
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Syzygy
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Re: Why do coaches recommend the Accelerated Dragon?
Reply #38 - 01/10/21 at 02:26:10
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XChess1971 wrote on 01/10/21 at 00:26:28:
bragesjo wrote on 01/08/21 at 11:36:15:
Syzygy wrote yesterday at 04:15:39:
In the delayed Alapin, the problem line is 1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 g6 3. c3 d5 4. exd5 Qxd5 5. d4 Bg7 6. Nbd2! when I haven't been able to find a clear path to equality for Black. This is another variation to keep in mind for those who prefer the Hyper-Accelerated move-order.


5...Nc6 is recommended by Raja


Yes, I also have Raja's book, but 5...Nc6 is not impressive. One good line is 6. Be3 Bg7 7. dxc5 Qxd1 8. Kxd1 Nf6 9. Bc4 O-O 10. Nbd2 Rd8 11. a4!?, intending to gain queenside space, when White is just better.

A possible continuation might be 11...Na5 12. Ba2 Nd5 13. Re1 Nc6 14. a5! +=
  
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XChess1971
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Re: Why do coaches recommend the Accelerated Dragon?
Reply #37 - 01/10/21 at 00:26:28
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bragesjo wrote on 01/08/21 at 11:36:15:
Syzygy wrote yesterday at 04:15:39:
In the delayed Alapin, the problem line is 1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 g6 3. c3 d5 4. exd5 Qxd5 5. d4 Bg7 6. Nbd2! when I haven't been able to find a clear path to equality for Black. This is another variation to keep in mind for those who prefer the Hyper-Accelerated move-order.


5...Nc6 is recommended by Raja
  
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XChess1971
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Re: Why do coaches recommend the Accelerated Dragon?
Reply #36 - 01/10/21 at 00:16:49
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doefmat wrote on 01/07/21 at 05:01:47:
For someone who plays the Sicilian for the first time, does it make more sense to go for the Hyper move order or the Nc6 move order?

- With Nc6 we allow the Rossolimo but we can play 2...Nf6 against Alapin and don't need a seperate line against the Morra.
- With the hyper we allow the Delayed Alapin 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 g6 3.c3 so we also have to play sub-optimal against the regular Alapin.

Rossolimo seems pretty hard/annoying. What's your opinion?


On 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 g6 3.c3 you can play 3...d5 4.exd5 Qxd5
  
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Re: Why do coaches recommend the Accelerated Dragon?
Reply #35 - 01/10/21 at 00:12:21
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Well the Accelerated Dragon would be recommended as a way of confusing some new chess players. But if I recommended it. I would be very cautious when recommending a way of playing it. It is pretty obvious that it can not be compared to the Russian Defense. The Russia Defense is a more positional system with less imbalances.
  
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bragesjo
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Re: Why do coaches recommend the Accelerated Dragon?
Reply #34 - 01/08/21 at 14:31:55
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An other small comment, as white I have played several of the modern Marocy Bind lines where white castles long, I won vs 300 elo higher rated some days ago in online blitz event.  I even won a corr game in this line.
  
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bragesjo
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Re: Why do coaches recommend the Accelerated Dragon?
Reply #33 - 01/08/21 at 11:36:15
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Syzygy wrote on 01/08/21 at 09:15:39:
In the delayed Alapin, the problem line is 1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 g6 3. c3 d5 4. exd5 Qxd5 5. d4 Bg7 6. Nbd2! when I haven't been able to find a clear path to equality for Black. This is another variation to keep in mind for those who prefer the Hyper-Accelerated move-order.


"The Hyper Acceleratd Dragon" by Raja Panjwani also covers some anit sicilians does not play Bg7 that early in either 2 c3 or delayed c3 but prefecres Nc6 in most lines before Bg7 is played. He writes that  Ftacnik went for Bg7 and that there was tons of theory after Nbd2 and that black might by fine but he thinks that Nc6 is a better move.

EDIT
There are even an line vs Na3 where black even plays out the lighsquared Bishop to g4 and castles long before playing Bg7. /EDIT

In delayed c3 he thinks that  3 .. Nc6 is better than d5 to avoid a forced draw, it usually transposed but there are some independent lines like for example Bb5 that is a weaker version of Rossolimo since whites pawn is commited to c3.

He also suggested an intresting line vs Morra Gambit. He plays declined with d3 and follows up with an early Bg7xc3 that does not give white wants he wants ndn only way to avoid it is a way to early Nd5 where black has no problems

The only line I fear in my accelereted Dragon repertour  are Marocy Bind in the case that white players actually knows theory. I play Ng4 Qxg4 Nxd4 Qd1 e5 system in over the board games with decent score in online divisions but I would not trust it in Corr Chess.
« Last Edit: 01/08/21 at 14:30:49 by bragesjo »  
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Re: Why do coaches recommend the Accelerated Dragon?
Reply #32 - 01/08/21 at 09:35:36
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Syzygy wrote on 01/08/21 at 09:15:39:
After 9. f3, 9...Nh5 does rank among the computer's top choices. I think the natural 10. O-O might be best. After the engine line 10...Nf4 11. Kh1! (played in a couple of recent games) White maintains a characteristic small edge, even if some minor pieces are swapped off.


Yes, I agree, it seems like White maintains a small edge in this line. That also seems true if Black chooses the somewhat more combative 10...Qb6!? instead. But I guess this is something that can happen in many of the Maroczy bind variations, and also not just those that result from the Accelerated Dragon.
  
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Re: Why do coaches recommend the Accelerated Dragon?
Reply #31 - 01/08/21 at 09:21:39
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Syzygy wrote on 01/07/21 at 21:57:44:
I agree that this is probably Black's best bet against 10. h3.


Lol. I just noticed that I have commented here in another thread on the Accelerated Dragon, and the conclusion was the same in that one, that Black's best bet is probably to use this line, with 12...a5 and 13...a4!?
  
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Re: Why do coaches recommend the Accelerated Dragon?
Reply #30 - 01/08/21 at 09:15:39
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fling wrote on 01/08/21 at 08:05:29:
Syzygy wrote on 01/07/21 at 21:57:44:
The line with 22...Red8 was already seen in the correspondence game Hatzl - Moza 2014, which ended in a draw. The game continued 23. Bc4 Rac8 24. b4! axb3 25. Bxb3 Qxa3 26. Qd3, when Moza narrowly managed to defend against White's initiative with 26...Bf8. I agree that this is probably Black's best bet against 10. h3.

However, even if this entire variation is ultimately OK for Black, how should one meet 9. f3? The natural continuation 9...Bd7 10. Qd2 Nxd4 11. Bxd4 Bc6 12. O-O-O! or 11...a5 12. h4! looks quite dangerous both practically and objectively.


I see, that is interesting, thanks for sharing that game! I am not a corr-player and only have a few sources for correspondence games (Ultra Corr, CB-online plus some others), in which I could not find the mentioned game in this line. Further, the AD is not my main line, but I keep interest in it as I occasionally end up in it because I have played 1...c5 as a reply to 1.c4, or from 1. e4 c5 2. Nc3 Nc6 (not my usual answer, as I my main option is the Kan).

Thanks for pointing out 9. f3 as a dangerous alternative, which is pretty natural, as is the move 9...Bd7. Is this variation a reason for why there are no or few corr-games with 10. h3 lately?

Anyhow, I guess the critical continuation is 9...Nh5 10. Qd2, and it seems like Black has a decent game, choosing between 10...Qa5!? (which allows White to capture on c6 if he wishes) or capturing on d4 and playing ...Qa5 or maybe ...Be6 before that (which maybe can be said to be a more standard plan in the AD).

Edit: I just noticed that Shaw gives this line with 9. f3, and he recommends 9...Nh5 10. g3, with the comment that it's not clear what the knight is doing. This was also played in the game So-Mamedov, 2015. I think 10...Qa5!? looks best after that, as played in two email games, both ending in draws.


I'm not a correspondence player either - I actually found the Hatzl - Moza game using Lichess opening explorer.  Smiley

After 9. f3, 9...Nh5 does rank among the computer's top choices. I think the natural 10. O-O might be best. After the engine line 10...Nf4 11. Kh1! (played in a couple of recent games) White maintains a characteristic small edge, even if some minor pieces are swapped off.

bragesjo wrote on 01/08/21 at 08:10:51:
A small comment, if black choses to transpose to Yugoslav attack (like I do) Nxd4 + b5 system (called Forintos variation in this thread, all my books calls is Parma variation) is not enough, but the line make more sense in over the board games  than Topalov variation. White can also play h4 before Qd2 so black must know theory on either Soltis variation (black plays h5 and is fine) or play the more risky Nxd4 anyway.

An other small comment are that anti sicilian to met it depends of if black play d5 vs 2 c3 or not. I think blacks is fine is in delayed c3, it usually transposes to 2 c3 d5.  2 g6 .. move order allow Qxd4 system but I think black is fine there as well.


In the delayed Alapin, the problem line is 1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 g6 3. c3 d5 4. exd5 Qxd5 5. d4 Bg7 6. Nbd2! when I haven't been able to find a clear path to equality for Black. This is another variation to keep in mind for those who prefer the Hyper-Accelerated move-order.
  
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bragesjo
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Re: Why do coaches recommend the Accelerated Dragon?
Reply #29 - 01/08/21 at 08:10:51
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A small comment, if black choses to transpose to Yugoslav attack (like I do) Nxd4 + b5 system (called Forintos variation in this thread, all my books calls is Parma variation) is not enough, but the line make more sense in over the board games  than Topalov variation. White can also play h4 before Qd2 so black must know theory on either Soltis variation (black plays h5 and is fine) or play the more risky Nxd4 anyway.

An other small comment are that anti sicilian to met it depends of if black play d5 vs 2 c3 or not. I think blacks is fine is in delayed c3, it usually transposes to 2 c3 d5.  2 g6 .. move order allow Qxd4 system but I think black is fine there as well.
  
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