Latest Updates:
Normal Topic What's this line ? (Read 3015 times)
Paddy
God Member
*****
Offline


The truth will out!

Posts: 965
Location: Manchester
Joined: 01/10/03
Gender: Male
Re: What's this line ?
Reply #6 - 01/09/21 at 21:02:09
Post Tools
MNb wrote on 01/09/21 at 08:04:50:
Paddy wrote on 01/09/21 at 00:03:12:
This line might be an attempt to improve slightly on the line 1 e4 e5 2 Nf3 Nc6 3 Bc4 Bc5 4 c3 Nf6 5 d4 exd4 6 0-0?! Nxe4! 7 cxd4 d5!.

Here White wins the pawn back 8.dxc5 dxc4 9.Qe2 due to the pin of Ne4 (Black is still fine). So I doubt if the delay d2-d3-d4 pays off objectively.

Thanks MNb - I don't disagree!

Probably the main virtue (apart from novelty and confusion factor) of the new line is that the queens are kept on! But also perhaps that the best responses according to some engines are to allow the doubling of the black c-pawns and then place the bishop on the ugly square b7. Meanwhile White can continue as if oblivious to being a pawn down, use the e5 square and blockade the extra black pawn by controlling and maybe occupying the c5-square. It seems rather hard for Black to come up with a plan to make the extra pawn count, which can be frustrating of course and lead to excessive calculation and loss of time on the clock.

By the way, in the older line 1 e4 e5 2 Nf3 Nc6 3 Bc4 Bc5 4 c3 Nf6 5 d4 exd4 6 0-0?! Nxe4! 7 cxd4 d5! 8.dxc5 dxc4 9.Qe2 instead of 9...Qd3 there is the engine suggestion of 9...Qe7 and if 10 Qxc4 Bf5, with the plan of 0-0-0 and a tense unbalanced game in prospect, in which Stockfish 12 prefers Black very slightly at depth 36.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MNb
God Member
*****
Offline


Rudolf Spielmann forever

Posts: 10764
Location: Moengo
Joined: 01/05/04
Gender: Male
Re: What's this line ?
Reply #5 - 01/09/21 at 08:04:50
Post Tools
Paddy wrote on 01/09/21 at 00:03:12:
This line might be an attempt to improve slightly on the line 1 e4 e5 2 Nf3 Nc6 3 Bc4 Bc5 4 c3 Nf6 5 d4 exd4 6 0-0?! Nxe4! 7 cxd4 d5!.

Here White wins the pawn back 8.dxc5 dxc4 9.Qe2 due to the pin of Ne4 (Black is still fine). So I doubt if the delay d2-d3-d4 pays off objectively.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
GC Lichtenberg
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paddy
God Member
*****
Offline


The truth will out!

Posts: 965
Location: Manchester
Joined: 01/10/03
Gender: Male
Re: What's this line ?
Reply #4 - 01/09/21 at 00:03:12
Post Tools
This line might be an attempt to improve slightly on the line 1 e4 e5 2 Nf3 Nc6 3 Bc4 Bc5 4 c3 Nf6 5 d4 exd4 6 0-0?! Nxe4! 7 cxd4 d5!.

After 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Bc5 4.0-0 Nf6 5.c3 Nxe4 6.d3 Nf6 (6...Nd6 7 Bb3 seems worse) 7 d4 exd4 8 cxd4 d5! (if the bishop moves then d4-d5 always gives White plenty of positional - and practical - compensation for the pawn in such positions) we reach a similar position except that the black king's knight is arguably less active on f6 instead of e4.

Even so, although White has some compensation Black should be fine, although especially at a fast rate of play such lines can set practical problems if Black is unfamiliar with them.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
brabo
God Member
*****
Offline


Welcome chessfriend

Posts: 1071
Joined: 02/02/07
Re: What's this line ?
Reply #3 - 01/08/21 at 07:48:45
Post Tools
hicetnunc wrote on 01/07/21 at 15:43:37:
Today I played a training game and met a line I've never heard of in the Italian : 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Bc5 4.c3 Nf6 5.0-0 Nxe4 6.d3 Nf6 7.d4

I thought my opponent had mouse-slipped somewhere, but I quickly ran into problems and lost the game : https://lichess.org/joeH1uCatp4w

I'm wondering where this line comes from ? Is it referenced anywhere ?

I guess your opponent was the Turkish IM Omer Faruk : https://ratings.fide.com/profile/6354564
  
Back to top
WWW  
IP Logged
 
brabo
God Member
*****
Offline


Welcome chessfriend

Posts: 1071
Joined: 02/02/07
Re: What's this line ?
Reply #2 - 01/08/21 at 06:36:27
Post Tools
I've seen the line more than once passing by. I even played a correspondence-game against it in 2000 see below. However the engines have dramatically improved in 20 years so this needs once to be revised.

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Bc5 4.0-0 Nf6 5.c3 Nxe4 6.d3 Nxf2 7.Rxf2 Bxf2+ 8.Kxf2 d6 9.Bg5 f6 10.Bh4 d5 11.Bb5 Qd6 12.Kf1 Bd7 13.Nbd2 0-0-0 14.a4 g5 15.Bf2 a6 16. Bxc6 Qxc6 17.Qc2 g4 18.Ng1 f5 19.b4 Qh6 20.h4 gxh3(e.p.) 21.Nxh3 e4 22.Bd4 Rhg8 23.Nb3 f4 24.Ng1 f3 25.gxf3 e3 26.Bxe3 Qxe3 27.Qf2 Rxg1+ 0-1
Mate follows in 3 more moves.

I notice Stockfish 12 doesn't like much my Nxf2 today but in the year 2000 it allowed me to beat a 2200 rated correspondence player with it.
Anyway the line is for sure more tricky than an ordinary mouseslip.
  
Back to top
WWW  
IP Logged
 
an ordinary chessplayer
God Member
*****
Offline


I used to be not bad.

Posts: 1723
Location: Columbus, OH (USA)
Joined: 01/02/15
Re: What's this line ?
Reply #1 - 01/08/21 at 00:11:15
Post Tools
I never saw that one before. Your play looked logical. I would rather just give back the pawn than play a move like ...Bc8-b7, but actually I don't see a convenient way to do it at that moment, and Hiarcs approves your play. Maybe 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Bc5 4.c3 Nf6 5.O-O Nxe4 6.d3 Nf6 7.d4 exd4 8.cxd4 d5 9.Bb5 Be7 10.Nc3 Bd7!? to keep the pawns nice. It's no more passive than your 10...O-O 11.Bxc6 bxc6 12.Ne5 Bb7. But white can also vary with 10.Bxc6 bxc6 11.Nc3 O-O 12.Ne5 transposing back into your game.

The most frustrating mistake to face is the one that is not as stupid as it looks.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
hicetnunc
Full Member
***
Offline


"Do something scary every
day"

Posts: 237
Location: Paris, France
Joined: 01/04/03
Gender: Male
What's this line ?
01/07/21 at 15:43:37
Post Tools
Today I played a training game and met a line I've never heard of in the Italian : 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Bc5 4.c3 Nf6 5.0-0 Nxe4 6.d3 Nf6 7.d4

I thought my opponent had mouse-slipped somewhere, but I quickly ran into problems and lost the game : https://lichess.org/joeH1uCatp4w

I'm wondering where this line comes from ? Is it referenced anywhere ?
  

48 yo, 1920 elo
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Bookmarks: del.icio.us Digg Facebook Google Google+ Linked in reddit StumbleUpon Twitter Yahoo