Latest Updates:
Page Index Toggle Pages: 1 [2] 3 
Topic Tools
Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Is FatFritz ethically doubtful? (Read 7613 times)
trw
YaBB Moderator
*****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 1375
Joined: 05/06/08
Gender: Male
Re: Is FatFritz ethically doubtful?
Reply #25 - 02/21/21 at 20:38:04
Post Tools
I would say it is unethical given SF has a freaking blog post on it... https://blog.stockfishchess.org/post/643239805544792064/statement-on-fat-fritz-2...

Also, I saw three different chess related groups I am in raising money to sue Chessbase over this. I am not lawyer and have no idea if they have a case. However, I shared the threads with two chess lawyers I know who said that it had merit.

As for chessbase itself, I've always felt it was clunky, old, poor ui, overpriced, the world's worst customer service (on the level of comcast) and a website that makes a person wish for hell instead. But what are these competitors you speak of? Certainly not SCID? Chessbase survives not because they GOOD at ANYTHING but because they're the only product on the market that meets the bare minimum. So they can continue to be assholes to everyone until someone wants to compete with them. The problem is chess has never really had enough money to interest competitors.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Bibs
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 2273
Joined: 10/24/06
Re: Is FatFritz ethically doubtful?
Reply #24 - 02/21/21 at 02:57:45
Post Tools
Link for SF13 for you:
https://stockfishchess.org/download/

  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
ReneDescartes
God Member
*****
Offline


Qu'est-ce donc que je
suis? Une chose qui pense.

Posts: 1205
Joined: 05/17/10
Gender: Male
Re: Is FatFritz ethically doubtful?
Reply #23 - 02/21/21 at 02:47:27
Post Tools
Good news -- Stockfish 13 is released, significantly stronger than Stockfish 12, rendering  FatFritz2 an outdated clone.
« Last Edit: 02/21/21 at 14:56:51 by ReneDescartes »  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Bibs
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 2273
Joined: 10/24/06
Re: Is FatFritz ethically doubtful?
Reply #22 - 02/19/21 at 07:42:25
Post Tools
This from lichess:

https://lichess.org/blog/YCvy7xMAACIA8007/fat-fritz-2-is-a-rip-off?fbclid=IwAR1i...

The suggestion there is that Albert Silver is knowingly entirely dishonest in his claims for Fat Fritz 2.

And has been systematically dishonest through the whole time of Fat Fritz and Fat Fritz 2.

And that Chessbase are too. That saddens me.

  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Jupp53
God Member
*****
Offline


be

Posts: 986
Location: Frankfurt/Main
Joined: 01/04/09
Gender: Male
Re: Is FatFritz ethically doubtful?
Reply #21 - 02/18/21 at 21:03:22
Post Tools
ReneDescartes wrote on 02/18/21 at 17:50:35:
IsaVulpes wrote on 02/17/21 at 02:56:38:
Everything about ChessBase is a joke. A company stuck in 1995, passed left and right by "upstarts", that now tries to save itself from the onslaught of modern chess tools by selling stolen content.

I like, and still sometimes buy, their flagship products Chessbase, Megabase with its annotated games, and the Fritz GUI and its graphics, playing, and training options. What upstart products take the place of these? Online-only subscription services? In the long run, those are more expensive.


If you don't need (additional) annotaded games the game service from ChessAssistan is much cheaper. 20€ iirc. In case you have chesspublishing this should be sufficient. A friend of mine, Elo 2100 comes along with TWIC.
  

Medical textbooks say I should be dead since April 2002.
Dum spiro spero. Smiley
Narcissm is the humans primary disease.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MW
Senior Member
****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 256
Joined: 04/20/18
Gender: Male
Re: Is FatFritz ethically doubtful?
Reply #20 - 02/18/21 at 18:58:14
Post Tools
IsaVulpes wrote on 02/17/21 at 02:56:38:
Everything about ChessBase is a joke. A company stuck in 1995, passed left and right by "upstarts", that now tries to save itself from the onslaught of modern chess tools by selling stolen content.


With my IT skills being pretty limited I have always found the Chessbase staff to be extremely patient and helpful so I'm a little bewildered by the "passed left and right by upstarts" comment. That has certainly not been my experience and lord knows I have hounded them enough for help over the years.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
ReneDescartes
God Member
*****
Offline


Qu'est-ce donc que je
suis? Une chose qui pense.

Posts: 1205
Joined: 05/17/10
Gender: Male
Re: Is FatFritz ethically doubtful?
Reply #19 - 02/18/21 at 17:50:35
Post Tools
IsaVulpes wrote on 02/17/21 at 02:56:38:
Everything about ChessBase is a joke. A company stuck in 1995, passed left and right by "upstarts", that now tries to save itself from the onslaught of modern chess tools by selling stolen content.

I like, and still sometimes buy, their flagship products Chessbase, Megabase with its annotated games, and the Fritz GUI and its graphics, playing, and training options. What upstart products take the place of these? Online-only subscription services? In the long run, those are more expensive.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
bragesjo
God Member
*****
Offline


CCE at ICCF 2021

Posts: 1716
Location: Eskilstuna
Joined: 06/30/06
Gender: Male
Re: Is FatFritz ethically doubtful?
Reply #18 - 02/17/21 at 16:27:48
Post Tools
I have used Google a bit and read slightly odd thing that the version of the net that is on Github are weaker than the version of the net in the commercial product....
  
Back to top
WWW  
IP Logged
 
bragesjo
God Member
*****
Offline


CCE at ICCF 2021

Posts: 1716
Location: Eskilstuna
Joined: 06/30/06
Gender: Male
Re: Is FatFritz ethically doubtful?
Reply #17 - 02/17/21 at 13:16:55
Post Tools
Fat Fritz 2.0 box has written in very smal text on the back (with risk that I make som manual typos, missed some word or read som word wrong).

"Fat Fritz 2.0 is an original neural network that is powered by a modifed version of Stockfish. Stockfish is an open-source project licenced through the GPL v3 with all due rights. The source code of Stockfish and the modifications for Fat Fritz 2.0 can be found  on Github."
  
Back to top
WWW  
IP Logged
 
an ordinary chessplayer
God Member
*****
Offline


I used to be not bad.

Posts: 1333
Location: Columbus, OH (USA)
Joined: 01/02/15
Re: Is FatFritz ethically doubtful?
Reply #16 - 02/17/21 at 04:25:04
Post Tools
I don't think "everything" about ChessBase is a joke. ChessBase is not only (Fat)Fritz. They do some things right, but also they are making some obvious and serious mistakes. Also, I am not a lawyer (standard disclaimer), but it's not clear to me the net has to be released at all. Something for knowledgeable people to explain. I have to wonder who is making the decisions about Fritz, and Houdini (news to me), but it's all the same "department". Maybe it's simple ignorance, maybe it's getting bad advice, maybe whatever. The somebody inside ChessBase with the final say should know better.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Confused_by_Theory
Senior Member
****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 440
Location: Europe
Joined: 05/13/15
Gender: Male
Re: Is FatFritz ethically doubtful?
Reply #15 - 02/17/21 at 03:32:02
Post Tools
Hi.

Confused_by_Theory wrote on 02/15/21 at 16:18:11:
This should be in computer chess.
Jupp53 wrote on 02/16/21 at 12:21:39:
No. There's a topic about the technical details in the computer chess section. This is about the ethical behaviour of the chessbase managers. FatFritz is only an example.

That's fine. To my mind naming the tread something with Chessbase and having a clarification in the opening post about thread purpose would be good practice here though.

I.e. we have this other thread about the program Fat Fritz 2 (link) but here let's discuss Chessbase ethics and business practices because reasons why we need new thread.

Have a nice day.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
IsaVulpes
Senior Member
****
Offline


No.

Posts: 343
Joined: 12/09/07
Re: Is FatFritz ethically doubtful?
Reply #14 - 02/17/21 at 02:56:38
Post Tools
proustiskeen wrote on 02/15/21 at 02:53:27:
The networks are completely different, and they have released the source and (soon, i think) the actual network on github. There's no violation of GPL and no ethical problem, in my view.

"Selling Stockfish derivatives is possible with the GPLv3 license we grant, but not without requirements. In particular, the license states that if one redistributes a program derived from our work, the corresponding modifications of our sources and all information needed to build that program must be made available. Only after explicitly informing Albert Silver (the author of the net in Fat Fritz 2) of a license violation have matching C++ sources, but not the net weights, been made available. "
- https://blog.stockfishchess.org/post/643239805544792064/statement-on-fat-fritz-2

Everything about FF2 is ethically garbage.
The jury is out whether it is legal at all, they are -as of now- effectively breaking the GPL licence, at the very least in spirit.

"soon, I think" is obviously too late.
If someone is telling you 'You can sell this, but only if you tell everyone you got it from me', you can't start selling it and wait a month (or however long) with telling people. That was the precondition.
If the net has to be released to the public before you start selling (that is how I understand it), then every cent that they made from Fat Fritz up until actually releasing the net is grounds for calling a lawyer.

Not that this type of behavior by ChessBase should surprise anyone -
June last year, they published a long sales pitch for the entire Houdini series https://en.chessbase.com/post/10-years-houdini ; this is 2 months after https://chess.stackexchange.com/questions/29181/is-houdini-6-a-stockfish-clone this thread clarified that the entire engine is stolen (on talkchess, the discussion had been running for a while prior).
It is still for sale at full price in their shop https://shop.chessbase.com/en/products/houdini_6_pro_multiprocessor_version .

Everything about ChessBase is a joke. A company stuck in 1995, passed left and right by "upstarts", that now tries to save itself from the onslaught of modern chess tools by selling stolen content.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Jupp53
God Member
*****
Offline


be

Posts: 986
Location: Frankfurt/Main
Joined: 01/04/09
Gender: Male
Re: Is FatFritz ethically doubtful?
Reply #13 - 02/16/21 at 12:21:39
Post Tools
Confused_by_Theory wrote on 02/15/21 at 16:18:11:
Hi.

This should be in computer chess.


No. There's a topic about the technical details in the computer chess section. This is about the ethical behaviour of the chessbase managers. FatFritz is only an example.
  

Medical textbooks say I should be dead since April 2002.
Dum spiro spero. Smiley
Narcissm is the humans primary disease.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
an ordinary chessplayer
God Member
*****
Offline


I used to be not bad.

Posts: 1333
Location: Columbus, OH (USA)
Joined: 01/02/15
Re: Is FatFritz ethically doubtful?
Reply #12 - 02/16/21 at 00:32:29
Post Tools
ReneDescartes wrote on 02/16/21 at 00:01:52:
I will not buy Fat Fritz 2 but will download and use in my existing Fritz GUI the neural net from the link Proustiskeen kindly provided.

You might have to build "FatFritz2" from source. They changed the net size from 256 to 512, so I think the net is now incompatible with the Stockfish build. Okay I don't know for sure, but I think that might be the case.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
an ordinary chessplayer
God Member
*****
Offline


I used to be not bad.

Posts: 1333
Location: Columbus, OH (USA)
Joined: 01/02/15
Re: Is FatFritz ethically doubtful?
Reply #11 - 02/16/21 at 00:24:37
Post Tools
I used Apple translation and it captured that flavor perfectly. I agree it is legal conduct. On the face of it ChessBase is trying to mislead by the mispelling stocksh. It's remotely possible someone mistakenly added stocksh to a spell-check dictionary, in which case it would have passed an infinite number of times. (Not that I think that's what actually happened.) Their article on en.chessbase.com spells Stockfish correctly, but there they say it is "based on" Stockfish, which I would say is an inaccurate description.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Page Index Toggle Pages: 1 [2] 3 
Topic Tools
Bookmarks: del.icio.us Digg Facebook Google Google+ Linked in reddit StumbleUpon Twitter Yahoo