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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Is FatFritz ethically doubtful? (Read 7614 times)
ReneDescartes
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Re: Is FatFritz ethically doubtful?
Reply #10 - 02/16/21 at 00:01:52
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The Google translation fails to capture the flavor of the original article when the latter cites the repetition of the misspelling "Stocksh" in the documentation as evidence of Chessbase's dishonest intent:
____________________________________________
Das es sich hierbei um einen unabsichtlichen Schreibfehler handelt, kann ausgeschlossen werden. Er kommt in der Produktbeschreibung einfach zu oft vor.
„Täter: Nein Herr Staatsanwalt, er ist mir ins Messer gelaufen! – Staatsanwalt: Aber doch nicht 23 mal!“

____________________________________________
It can be ruled out that we are dealing with an inadvertent typo. It simply occurs too often in the product description.
"Perpetrator: No, Mr. Prosecutor, he ran into my knife! --Prosecutor: But definitely not 23 times!"
____________________________________________


--This case appears to be the inverse of the Shereshevsky case: Chessbase's conduct is deliberately misleading about their content's origin ("Stocksh"), and therefore intellectually dishonest; but it is probably not illegal. And here no one is implying you ought not to buy Fat Fritz 2. It's just that out of self-interest, you might not want to buy it once you are no longer mislead. I, for example, already own the Fritz GUI. I easily might have been tricked into giving Chessbase money for something that I already had together with something free and easily installed. Now that I am disabused, I will not buy Fat Fritz 2 but will download, and use in my existing Fritz GUI, the neural net from the link Proustiskeen kindly provided.

I am disgusted, but what of that? Caveat emptor!
  
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an ordinary chessplayer
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Re: Is FatFritz ethically doubtful?
Reply #9 - 02/15/21 at 21:13:38
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Fritz has always been a combination of a GUI and an engine. I think at first it was just a cut-down version of ChessBase, rather like ChessBase Lite but with an emphasis on playing. At some point they changed the GUI so one could add any UCI engine. FatFritz is NNUE enabled, and the first version is GUI + lc0 + net. FatFritz2 does not use the gpu but uses only the cpu, and is GUI + stockfish + net. So the answer to your question is:

ThinFritz
  • GUI = ChessBase
  • engine = licensed from third party author

FatFritz
  • GUI = ChessBase
  • engine = copied (legally) from lc0 (v1) or stockfish (v2)
  • net = by Albert Silver, either owned or licensed by ChessBase, that's between them
  
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Confused_by_Theory
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Re: Is FatFritz ethically doubtful?
Reply #8 - 02/15/21 at 16:18:11
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Hi.

This should be in computer chess.
What is Fat Fritz, Is it a combination of a brute force engine and neural net engine? If so what is potentially copied: One part, two parts or nothing? Is there another way of looking at it?

Have a nice day.
  
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Pawnpusher
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Re: Is FatFritz ethically doubtful?
Reply #7 - 02/15/21 at 12:03:39
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Well the compensation is that, when they copy Komodo Dragon for Fat Fritz 3, Kaufman will sue because it is copyrighted.
  
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Re: Is FatFritz ethically doubtful?
Reply #6 - 02/15/21 at 06:57:20
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Thanks for the link, I wouldn't have found it quickly. I wanted to see if ChessBase had made any contributions to Stockfish. But nope. The only minimal commits they made were to customize it for their own use.

proustiskeen wrote on 02/15/21 at 02:53:27:
The networks are completely different, and they have released the source and (soon, i think) the actual network on github. There's no violation of GPL and no ethical problem, in my view.

Yes, the network is original, and they are justified in selling that. But as for the engine itself .... Well, it's one of the drawbacks of truly free software. You can't stop anyone from forking it. Similarly, if you are giving away bottles of water, you can't stop me from taking a bottle from you and then turning around and selling it. Although I guess if my customers find out they could have had the water for free, not all of them will understand the distinction between free speech and free beer.

I'm not super upset about it, and I will still sometimes give ChessBase my coin in the future. But obviously I won't be buying any version of Fritz ever, nor recommending it, because Stockfish is still free! But before this episode I had a somewhat higher opinion of the ChessBase team.
  
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proustiskeen
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Re: Is FatFritz ethically doubtful?
Reply #5 - 02/15/21 at 04:02:19
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Re: Is FatFritz ethically doubtful?
Reply #4 - 02/15/21 at 03:08:11
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Quote:
We couldn’t find any repositories matching 'fatfritz'

Do you have a link to the source repository on github?
  
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proustiskeen
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Re: Is FatFritz ethically doubtful?
Reply #3 - 02/15/21 at 02:53:27
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The networks are completely different, and they have released the source and (soon, i think) the actual network on github. There's no violation of GPL and no ethical problem, in my view.
  
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ReneDescartes
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Re: Is FatFritz ethically doubtful?
Reply #2 - 02/14/21 at 11:06:50
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Fat Fritz not only is like Lc0, but is Lc0, only with a different learning history? I had no idea. I thought someone had actually written code exclusively available through Chessbase

Maybe I can make a mashup of recent Springsteen footage and call it Fat ReneDescartes.
  
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Re: Is FatFritz ethically doubtful?
Reply #1 - 02/14/21 at 05:30:38
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Thanks for the link. My German comprehension is not great if the subject is not chess moves, but the Apple translation worked fine for me.

My reaction when I saw the product announcements on en.chessbase.com was they are actually selling the customized neural net by Albert Silver. Therefore I didn't think it was _so_ bad. But this article throws a different light on it. I think the mispelling Stocksh shows an ill intent of ChessBase towards their customers. And looking at the (I think second) article again
https://en.chessbase.com/post/fat-fritz-2-best-of-both-worlds
it now seems to me that it's couched in a way to minimize the dependence on Stockfish 12. But I missed that at first reading because I'm familiar with the story, so I sort of filled in some of the blanks myself as I was reading.

Of course there is a long tradition of slick commercial chess programs having somebody else's engine under the hood. But those would have been commercial arrangements, and the consumer was not only paying for the strength of the engine, but also the useful packaging. I have in mind the Chessmaster series, and another example for me was something called Sierra Chess Complete. No doubt there were other cases.

This is different, because they didn't pay the engine author(s), and more importantly they are directly marketing the strength of the engine itself, even saying it is stronger than Stockfish 12. For a long time I didn't realize the ChessBase part of Fritz is just the GUI, and the engine has always been by someone else. When Rybka became Fritz is when I finally figured it out. I guess from ChessBase's point of view there's really not that much difference between a commercial arrangement where they are obligated by the author to pay, and a similar commercial (sic) arrangement where they are not obligated to pay and therefore they don't. But from an outside viewpoint I think it's a good illustration of Sorite's paradox, aka the fallacy of the beard, which I like to restate as "a difference of degree becomes a difference in kind".
  
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Is FatFritz ethically doubtful?
02/13/21 at 20:20:29
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Is there a corresponding article in english? https://schach.computer/fat-fritz-2-ein-unmoralisches-angebot/

The authors say FatFritz1 is Lc0 and FatFritz2 is Stockfish12Nnue. Does CB try to twit the customers by asking much money for a free program? Legal behavior, but all right?
  

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