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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Is FatFritz ethically doubtful? (Read 7228 times)
Seeley
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Re: Is FatFritz ethically doubtful?
Reply #40 - 03/01/21 at 13:02:17
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@ an ordinary chessplayer - You're absolutely right. I'm not defending or justifying it, simply explaining why, to my mind, so much chess journalism is toothless and anodyne.
  
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an ordinary chessplayer
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Re: Is FatFritz ethically doubtful?
Reply #39 - 03/01/21 at 07:34:45
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Seeley wrote on 02/28/21 at 23:24:01:
I think the explanation for this gulf between true reality and the reality represented in British chess journalism was that, on the chess scene, where everyone knew everyone else, no writer wanted to upset anybody for fear of the consequences it might have for that writer personally or professionally down the line, or perhaps they didn't want to malign someone they already had a personal or professional connection with.

That strategy of not wanting to upset anybody will only work as long as all crimes are victimless.
  
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Seeley
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Re: Is FatFritz ethically doubtful?
Reply #38 - 02/28/21 at 23:24:01
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an ordinary chessplayer wrote on 02/28/21 at 21:49:58:
I assumed it was journalism, maybe they would disclaim that.

The chess world is a small one, and I think this has a considerable impact on what passes for journalism within it. As a child in the UK, I used to read the two British chess periodicals and marvel at what a friendly, harmonious and controversy-free environment the chess scene was. Of course, as I grew up I realised this wasn't entirely how things were. I think the explanation for this gulf between true reality and the reality represented in British chess journalism was that, on the chess scene, where everyone knew everyone else, no writer wanted to upset anybody for fear of the consequences it might have for that writer personally or professionally down the line, or perhaps they didn't want to malign someone they already had a personal or professional connection with. Although the global chess scene is obviously much larger than the British one, it is still small enough for the same principles to apply. There may be reasons why some people don't want to upset certain other people, and this will affect what they write about each other.
  
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an ordinary chessplayer
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Re: Is FatFritz ethically doubtful?
Reply #37 - 02/28/21 at 21:49:58
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@Seeley - Good point. Perhaps not fair of me to duck the issue and then complain they did it. It depends on whether they are journalists or not. I assumed it was journalism, maybe they would disclaim that.
  
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Seeley
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Re: Is FatFritz ethically doubtful?
Reply #36 - 02/28/21 at 21:15:08
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an ordinary chessplayer wrote on 02/28/21 at 19:15:15:
ReneDescartes wrote on 02/28/21 at 17:26:51:
It's nakedly obvious what Silver is.

It's not nakedly obvious to chess.com.


I'm not convinced it's really possible to tell that from the article. I suspect that chess.com want to avoid provoking legal action just as much as you do, and if Chessbase were minded to go down that route, they'd be more likely to take aim at a widely read and influential voice in the chess world than at an anonymous individual on a small forum. The content of a piece like that will surely have needed approval from people higher up the tree at chess.com than the journalist himself - perhaps even from a lawyer - and what was originally written in the article might well have been carefully edited to sidestep any risk of committing a libel.
  
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an ordinary chessplayer
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Re: Is FatFritz ethically doubtful?
Reply #35 - 02/28/21 at 19:15:15
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ReneDescartes wrote on 02/28/21 at 17:26:51:
It's nakedly obvious what Silver is.

It's not nakedly obvious to chess.com.
  
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an ordinary chessplayer
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Re: Is FatFritz ethically doubtful?
Reply #34 - 02/28/21 at 18:48:47
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Basically I was trying to say the chess.com article is somewhat less than hard-hitting, without shouting to make the point.

Whether someone might sue me and whether they will sue me are of course two different questions. But it would be ironic for me to say something potentially libelous because I expect to get away with it, in a thread with "ethically" in the title. There's also the issue that calling the lawyers is a bit of a hurdle, but once they are activated it's not much work at all for them to rope in additional defendants on the paperwork.

A different point is: If it's a corporation or organization I have fewer qualms about stating some facts; whereas if it's a named individual I am much more cautious. This is probably inconsistent on my part because the corporation is more likely to sue me than the individual. But ethically it makes some sense, to the extent that lawful and ethical actions intersect.
  
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ReneDescartes
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Re: Is FatFritz ethically doubtful?
Reply #33 - 02/28/21 at 17:26:51
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It's totally reasonable to be restrained, especially since international libel laws are very different from the American laws, where the plaintiff has to prove ill intent. Pointing out something bad about Silver in this forum that was omitted in the chess.com article is hardly going to enlighten anyone. It's nakedly obvious what Silver is.
  
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Confused_by_Theory
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Re: Is FatFritz ethically doubtful?
Reply #32 - 02/28/21 at 13:47:52
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Hi.

I am somewhat intrigued what would lead to such reasoning; especially if it's related strictly to whatever information you don't want to put out there. Fair enough though.

It should be said that a lawsuit out of the blue against someone commenting without obvious ill intent on a relatively smallish internet site seems incredibly improbable and even after that some more very improbable things would have to happen before any legal process would even be possible; not to mention have a chance of success.

Have a nice day.

  
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an ordinary chessplayer
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Re: Is FatFritz ethically doubtful?
Reply #31 - 02/28/21 at 03:23:52
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I am purposely being non-specific because I predict at some point lawyers will be involved, and I would rather not need one myself. But you can start by looking for the places where Silver said honest/honestly.
  
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Confused_by_Theory
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Re: Is FatFritz ethically doubtful?
Reply #30 - 02/28/21 at 01:59:23
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Hi.

an ordinary chessplayer wrote on 02/27/21 at 23:56:29:
I expect most people have made up their minds already. ChessBase neither understands nor cares about the GPL and is not going to change, that was made clear. I didn't learn a shred of new information from the chess.com article, and there is some I knew before that's missing. Such missing information made me actively upset with some of chess.com's narrative descriptions in the article. As in, that's not the way it happened. Silver uses "honest" / "honestly" at the most inappropriate times. When journalists get unsatisfactory answers, they are supposed to ask ever tougher questions. But chess.com appears to want everybody to hug and say all is fine.

Would you mind being a little more specific? I don't find it easy to follow.

What would that missing information be? Where is chess.com's narrative wrong? At what point should Silver have been more thoroughly questioned?

Have a nice day.
  
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an ordinary chessplayer
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Re: Is FatFritz ethically doubtful?
Reply #29 - 02/27/21 at 23:56:29
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I expect most people have made up their minds already. ChessBase neither understands nor cares about the GPL and is not going to change, that was made clear. I didn't learn a shred of new information from the chess.com article, and there is some I knew before that's missing. Such missing information made me actively upset with some of chess.com's narrative descriptions in the article. As in, that's not the way it happened. Silver uses "honest" / "honestly" at the most inappropriate times. When journalists get unsatisfactory answers, they are supposed to ask ever tougher questions. But chess.com appears to want everybody to hug and say all is fine.
  
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Confused_by_Theory
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Re: Is FatFritz ethically doubtful?
Reply #28 - 02/27/21 at 21:21:17
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Hi.

trw wrote on 02/27/21 at 17:01:45:

This article seems well written to me. It includes quite detailed account of where the differences in viewpoints lie. Well worth a read.

Have a nice day.

P.S. there is also a chessbase article from a week ago that I am quite surprised has not been linked here yet:
https://en.chessbase.com/post/how-a-neural-network-is-made
  
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trw
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Re: Is FatFritz ethically doubtful?
Reply #27 - 02/27/21 at 17:01:45
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Jupp53
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Re: Is FatFritz ethically doubtful?
Reply #26 - 02/23/21 at 11:08:22
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trw wrote on 02/21/21 at 20:38:04:
Chessbase survives not because they GOOD at ANYTHING but because they're the only product on the market that meets the bare minimum. So they can continue to be assholes to everyone until someone wants to compete with them. The problem is chess has never really had enough money to interest competitors.


This will lead off-topic. Maybe you open a new one if you're interested in telling what your view of bare minimum is.

For me it is giving a database of master games, editing own dbs, making analysis possible.
  

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