Latest Updates:
Page Index Toggle Pages: 1 2 3 [4] 
Topic Tools
Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Opening Repertoire How-To (Read 20368 times)
an ordinary chessplayer
God Member
*****
Offline


I used to be not bad.

Posts: 1692
Location: Columbus, OH (USA)
Joined: 01/02/15
Re: Opening Repertoire How-To
Reply #14 - 05/14/21 at 06:10:23
Post Tools
Soltis (2010) Studying Chess Made Easy (256 pages) has a chapter 4 "The right way to study an opening" (pages 95-123). In general I think this is a very good book. I wish something like it had been available 30 years earlier. I am certainly going to implement one or two of his training ideas even at this late stage of my life. But I specifically borrowed it from the library because I saw a table of contents online and was curious about chapter 4.

Contents
  • Foreword (5)
  • Chapter 1 Chess isn't school (7)
  • Chapter 2 Cultivating your chess sense (31)
  • Chapter 3 The biggest study myth (71)
  • Chapter 4 The right way to study an opening (95)
  • Chapter 5 Two-and-a-half move chess (124)
  • Chapter 6 Overcoming endgame phobia (156)
  • Chapter 7 Learning to live with TMI (189)
  • Chapter 8 How to learn more from a master game (220)
  • Solutions (256)

Soltis radically asserts that opening memorization comes before opening understanding. (I agree, but most authors advise the opposite.) As an example he gives 

1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 a6 6.Be2 e6 7.O-O Nc6 8.Be3 Be7 9.f4 Qc7 10.Kh1 O-O 11.a4 Re8 12.Bf3 Bd7 13.Nb3 b6 14.g4

* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
*

Actually, he doesn't give the moves leading up to the diagram, and the diagram in the book has the white bishop on g3. It's such a well-known theoretical position that the first time through the book I didn't even notice that! I'm not sure the move order I gave is at all "best", but it has been played. Anyway, Soltis makes the point that knowing various plans from here won't do much good if you can't remember the moves that lead to the diagram. Strictly speaking he's not correct, because you could reach an analogous position where the plans are more or less still applicable. But as a practical matter he is correct.

Quote:
You can't rely on common sense and logic to get to move five, let alone to 15. Even in 1 e4 e5 openings you need to remember some highly unlikely moves.

This is very true. You also can't calculate the best moves in most openings, so the right amount of book knowedge is indispensable. Soltis doesn't say what, or how, or how much to memorize. My own advice is, at the start, for each opening try to memorize exactly one complete master game. It's a lot, but at least you are also spending some time on the middlegame and the endgame (if there is one). It's too much effort to always learn complete games, but certainly one complete game for each main line is reasonable.

A couple of other points Soltis makes are, learn openings one at a time, and be aware there is Too Much Information (TMI) out there. I won't reproduce his entire chapter, but on 22 pages he recommends this sequence for learning a new opening:
  • Getting acquainted (he suggests a couple of methods)
  • Tabiyas (normal positions), and ideal positions (more like traps)
  • Main lines (after the tabiya)
  • Sidelines (after the tabiya), and detours (before the tabiya)
  • What to do after the opening

And then on the next six pages he covers some practical questions and answers on how to play openings better. I think he mentions openings in a couple other places in the book, but there's no index, and I don't want to re-read the whole thing to find a couple of minor points.

Aside: For some reason Soltis consistently spells tabiya as tabia. That's not how I learned it, and I can't recall having seen that spelling anywhere else.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
an ordinary chessplayer
God Member
*****
Offline


I used to be not bad.

Posts: 1692
Location: Columbus, OH (USA)
Joined: 01/02/15
Re: Opening Repertoire How-To
Reply #13 - 02/28/21 at 04:21:26
Post Tools
Two articles by GM Avetik Grigoryan, I think he wrote them in the order presented:
The second article is highly relevant to the topic at hand. The first article is relevant but not quite as relevant, still it's so good I thought it was worth including here. I think on the whole the chessmood team is doing interesting stuff.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
an ordinary chessplayer
God Member
*****
Offline


I used to be not bad.

Posts: 1692
Location: Columbus, OH (USA)
Joined: 01/02/15
Re: Opening Repertoire How-To
Reply #12 - 02/28/21 at 00:27:47
Post Tools
I don't like videos, and could count the number I've watched on youtube on one hand. Before today that is. I looked at 34 youtube videos relating to this topic. I may have lost count, and I have another 60 or so links yet to be followed. In particular there's one by GM Molton from Chess Academy that might be good, but it's (1:35:04) and I'm youtubed out and need a mental health break. So here are the best two, with the unedited notes I took while watching. Although the below were the two best, there were more good ideas in some of the other videos.

(1) My Chess Notebook 2020.12.08 Building a Chess Opening Repertoire with Lichess Studies 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JBMt-wdH6xE (0:17:15) 
Leonard Blackburn LBB86@lichess 
My studies owner:LBB86 
no folders , use Word doc with links to organize 
lichess | learn | study | + (new) 
book icon -.> tree (masters|lichess) 
he is recommending just the top move in masters tree 
study is autosaved (sic) 
comments, arrows, highlights (right-click) 
also recommends use books or videos 
for spaced repetition: new chapter | analysis mode = interactive lesson 
1 quiz (chapter) for each branch "Quiz 1" .. "Quiz 21" 
give a short verbal reason for every move you make , mnemonic (sic) 
balance between detail and brevity 
switch to lichess database to prepare against weaker players 
repertoire cannot be complete, just ideas 
70 subscribers 194 videos channel born 2020.09.01 
student of Ben Finegold 
--this guy is very smart , math professor 

(2) Max Warmerdam 2020.06.12 How To Build An Opening Repertoire 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uXjRzwV-H4s (0:17:25) 
IM Max Warmerdam
chessbase 
example is Najdorf 
lines to look at and lines not to look at 
critical lines first 
database engine are your two friends don't follow blindly 
--good video his first for youtube 

When you watch enough videos on youtube you start to see blatant plagiarism. There was one strong player who reproduced the first half of the My Chess Studies video but did it worse, then he added some not useful stuff at the end so I guess he can sleep at night. The worst was someone who just posted another guy's video under his own name, I reported that one to youtube.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
ReneDescartes
God Member
*****
Offline


Qu'est-ce donc que je
suis? Une chose qui pense.

Posts: 1236
Joined: 05/17/10
Gender: Male
Re: Opening Repertoire How-To
Reply #11 - 02/26/21 at 12:58:51
Post Tools
I agree, that's the kind of harmless crutch a beginner needs, perfect as a piece of a beginner chapter. It would be easy to prevent misunderstandings about the completed formation being some kind of ideal to construct when the opponent is actually doing something.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Bibs
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 2338
Joined: 10/24/06
Re: Opening Repertoire How-To
Reply #10 - 02/26/21 at 07:10:53
Post Tools
Yes, for a beginner, this kinda thing is certainly helpful.

Key:
Pieces out quickly.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
an ordinary chessplayer
God Member
*****
Offline


I used to be not bad.

Posts: 1692
Location: Columbus, OH (USA)
Joined: 01/02/15
Re: Opening Repertoire How-To
Reply #9 - 02/26/21 at 07:06:34
Post Tools
Bibs wrote on 02/26/21 at 03:46:15:
Basically, yes. Almost universal except, unfortunately, against that exact black set-up.

It is easier if White does not place knights on both f3 and c3 versus the hippo.

Of course. I strongly believe against the hippo white should play either e4+d4+f4, or e4+d4+c4. But isn't this good enough for a beginner? It's just a scheme for white to get all the pieces developed. Not being able to move forward from this position is more of a middlegame problem. This is raising a good point that at some stage of the opening repertoire process, choosing a move has to be connected to a plan -- just not for beginners. So for example in the Najdorf I gave earlier, 7...Qb6 is one of the "best" moves, but it's not a good move at all if black is unwilling to play 8...Qxb2.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
an ordinary chessplayer
God Member
*****
Offline


I used to be not bad.

Posts: 1692
Location: Columbus, OH (USA)
Joined: 01/02/15
Re: Opening Repertoire How-To
Reply #8 - 02/26/21 at 06:49:39
Post Tools
ReneDescartes wrote on 02/26/21 at 03:16:17:
an ordinary chessplayer wrote on 02/25/21 at 19:28:44:

I think Reuben Fine (1943) Ideas Behind the Chess Openings had excellent advice. When your opponent doesn't fight for the center, just play like this:

r2qk2r/1bpnnpb1/pp1pp1pp/8/2BPPB2/2N2N2/PPPQ1PPP/3RR1K1 w kq - 0 11

All right! A gladiatorial match between Fred Reinfeld and a Hippopotamus! It's very close to these games, where Black worsens his dark-square weakness in an attempt to break out, then loses to an attack on the kingside dark squares:

[Event "Berlin East AdW 2nd"]
[Site "Berlin East"]
[Date "1985.09.05"]
[Round "5"]
[White "Kruszynski, Wlodzimierz"]
[Black "Thal, Olaf"]
[Result "1-0"]

1.e4 g6 2.d4 Bg7 3.Nc3 d6 4.Nf3 Nd7 5.Bc4 e6 6.Bg5 Ne7 7.Qd2 h6 8.Bf4 a6 9.a4 b6 10.O-O Bb7 11.h3 Nf6 12.Rfe1 Nxe4 13.Nxe4 Bxe4 14.Rxe4 d5 15.Bxd5 Nxd5 16.Be5 Nf6 17.Rf4 g5 18.Bxf6 Bxf6 19.Re4 Qd5 20.Qe2 Kf8 21.Re1 b5 22.c3 Rb8 23.Ne5 Kg7 24.Qh5 Rbf8 25.h4 bxa4 26.Rg4 Rh7 27.Rg3 Kh8 28.Rf3 Bxe5 29.Rxe5 Qb3 30.Rf6 Qxb2 31.Rexe6 gxh4 32.Rxa6 Qxc3 33.Qe5 Kg8 34.Rg6+ fxg6 35.Rxg6+ Kf7 36.Qe6# 1-0

[Event "ESP-chT"]
[Site "Salamanca"]
[Date "1998.??.??"]
[Round "4"]
[White "Paramos Dominguez, Roberto"]
[Black "Granados Gomez, Manuel"]
[Result "1-0"]

1.e4 b6 2.d4 Bb7 3.Bd3 e6 4.Nf3 d6 5.O-O Nd7 6.Qe2 Ne7 7.Nc3 g6 8.Bf4 Bg7 9.Rad1 a6 10.Rfe1 h6 11.Qe3 Nf8 12.Bc4 g5 13.Bg3 Neg6 14.h3 b5 15.Bb3 Nd7 16.a4 b4 17.Na2 a5 18.c3 bxc3 19.Nxc3 O-O 20.Bc2 Qe7 21.e5 d5 22.Nb5 Rfc8 23.Rc1 Nb8 24.Nh2 Na6 25.f4 Nxf4 26.Bxf4 gxf4 27.Qxf4 Nb4 28.Bb1 Bc6 29.Ng4 Qg5 30.Qf2 Bxb5 31.axb5 c6 32.b6 Rab8 33.Rc3 Kh8 34.Rg3 Qh4 35.Nf6 Rxb6 36.Kh2 Bxf6 37.exf6 Qh5 38.Rg7 1-0


Way to go off on a tangent. Smiley

I just now checked my facts. My memory wasn't perfect, but since I haven't looked at this book in over 25 years, I didn't do too badly. Actually it was: 
Reuben Fine (1942) Chess The Easy Way page 67 
1.e4 g6 2.d4 Bg7 3.Nc3 d6 4.Nf3 Nd7 5.Bc4 e6 6.O-O Ne7 7.Bf4 O-O 8.Qd2 +/- (Diagram 51)

* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
*
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Bibs
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 2338
Joined: 10/24/06
Re: Opening Repertoire How-To
Reply #7 - 02/26/21 at 03:46:15
Post Tools
Basically, yes. Almost universal except, unfortunately, against that exact black set-up.

It is easier if White does not place knights on both f3 and c3 versus the hippo.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
ReneDescartes
God Member
*****
Offline


Qu'est-ce donc que je
suis? Une chose qui pense.

Posts: 1236
Joined: 05/17/10
Gender: Male
Re: Opening Repertoire How-To
Reply #6 - 02/26/21 at 03:16:17
Post Tools
an ordinary chessplayer wrote on 02/25/21 at 19:28:44:

I think Reuben Fine (1943) Ideas Behind the Chess Openings had excellent advice. When your opponent doesn't fight for the center, just play like this:

* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
*

All right! A gladiatorial match between Fred Reinfeld and a Hippopotamus! It's very close to these games, where Black worsens his dark-square weakness in an attempt to break out, then loses to an attack on the kingside dark squares:
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
cathexis
God Member
*****
Offline


No matter where you go,
there you are.

Posts: 620
Joined: 03/03/20
Re: Opening Repertoire How-To
Reply #5 - 02/26/21 at 00:32:18
Post Tools
I think I understand you better aoc. I was in part riffing off the terms "just learned the rules," which implies a real babe in the woods to me. Hence the emphasis on the most basic instruction.

This quote from you:

Quote:
Example: You are going to play the Najdorf Sicilian as black. After 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 a6 6.Bg5 e6 7.f4, your choices are: 7...Qb6, 7...Be7, 7...Nbd7, 7...Qc7, 7...h6, 7...b5, 7...Nc6, 7...Bd7, and I can't think of any others. The precise question under consideration is, how do you decide which one is for you? As opposed to following some repertoire book and letting the author decide.


Certainly, this is the most intriguing to me. Finding a path to my own decision making, and in the most beneficial way would be great. No chicken feed that, genuine gold dust.

 
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
an ordinary chessplayer
God Member
*****
Offline


I used to be not bad.

Posts: 1692
Location: Columbus, OH (USA)
Joined: 01/02/15
Re: Opening Repertoire How-To
Reply #4 - 02/25/21 at 21:01:12
Post Tools
Re-reading cathexis's post, I want to clarify the subject under discussion is not how to learn an opening, nor is it how to choose an opening. The subject is, within the context of a chosen opening, how one goes about defining the exact responses to any play by the opponent.

Example: You are going to play the Najdorf Sicilian as black. After 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 a6 6.Bg5 e6 7.f4, your choices are: 7...Qb6, 7...Be7, 7...Nbd7, 7...Qc7, 7...h6, 7...b5, 7...Nc6, 7...Bd7, and I can't think of any others. The precise question under consideration is, how do you decide which one is for you? As opposed to following some repertoire book and letting the author decide.

But it's not about the Najdorf and whether that's a good opening for you. Maybe you want to play the Scandinavian. After 1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Qxd5 3.Nc3, you have to decide between, roughly in order of age: 3...Qd8, 3...Qa5, 3...Qd6, 3...Qe5+. And you have a similar problem in a totally different position. How to solve it?

Another way of putting it. Suppose you were going to write a repertoire book, without plagiarizing. Now imagine you are going to write that book for exactly one customer - yourself. So you will tailor the book for the audience of one, and that means your method of choosing will also be tailored.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
an ordinary chessplayer
God Member
*****
Offline


I used to be not bad.

Posts: 1692
Location: Columbus, OH (USA)
Joined: 01/02/15
Re: Opening Repertoire How-To
Reply #3 - 02/25/21 at 19:28:44
Post Tools
Was thinking about this more and already want to revise a couple things. Firstly, I said one opening for white and one for black, but it's already on the wrong track. It should never be about *any* opening, just about the method. Secondly was exactly the point ReneDescartes made. The opening repertoire uses progressive deepening, so the preparation method should do the same thing. Thirdly, this is fundamentally a do-it-yourself idea, so although we can recognize and use the chess ecosystem, it's always about *avoiding* canned repertoires and *making* our own repertoire, using similar methodology to what a titled player might do to turn around and sell to us. Finally, we have to make some assumptions about our players. Is it fair to assume they have these things?
  • desktop PC
  • database software (but not necessarily an actual database)
  • engine
  • and what else?

Not to worry cathexis, I'm not advocating beginners to have a tree of analysis and a contingency for every possibility.

So here's my idea for level one. Go to https://www.pgnmentor.com/files.html and under Players get the MacKenzie.pgn file (only 198 games!). Open that database in your chess software and using the search, save all games where Mackenzie was white in one database, black in another database. Then, supposing you want to know how to play black, you open up the database and see how MacKenzie played. And when you look at MacKenzie's opening, make sure to play through the whole game!

The only thing remaining is what advice to give about moves MacKenzie didn't face? I think Reuben Fine (1943) Ideas Behind the Chess Openings had excellent advice. When your opponent doesn't fight for the center, just play like this:

* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
*
I picked MacKenzie because he was a nice classical master and winner of some tournaments who had a straightforward and sensible repertoire. Morphy was "better", but he played a lot of inferior opposition which made him choose crazy openings sometimes. Other good choices could be Lasker or Schlechter, but not Capablanca because of the Caro-Kann and Nimzo-Indian.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
cathexis
God Member
*****
Offline


No matter where you go,
there you are.

Posts: 620
Joined: 03/03/20
Re: Opening Repertoire How-To
Reply #2 - 02/25/21 at 18:08:20
Post Tools
Well since I AM a Beginner, 

A few remarks FWIW:

I think a big part of Sillman's Endgame book success is due to the fact that basic Endgame knowledge can be reduced to literally three pieces out of the 32 the game starts with, 2 Kings and a Queen, etc. Whereas every opening has technically 32 pieces just from the get-go. (yes, I know 16 "pieces" and 16 pawns but you get the idea). Sillman skillfully organizes his text to the beginner's mind; for instance the fundamental endgame concept of opposition is not even formally introduced until page 42, even though 2 kings alone on a board to display opposition is one piece fewer than in the first chapter. So he is telling us what a endgame looks like before teaching theory. You, "get your feet wet" first. Your mileage may vary, but if you agree with this than this beginner strongly believes level one should be focusing on no particular opening at all, but rather reviewing what is going on in the opening, making sense of this 32-piece crowd, and why it matters. Common beginner complaints like, "What do I do if my opponent goes out-of-book?" should also be addressed.  This segues with Rene's stress on the importance of middlegame concepts, which this beginner highly seconds.

By deciding to teach in a progressive leveled approach you now have at least one fundamental decision to make: Expose learners to various openings beginning with ones that might be deemed "easier" - and that is debatable, I'm sure. Then introducing harder or more complex but different openings as you go on. Or, by choosing a select few that are introduced in their most basic form - but then *staying* with just those few all the way; each level being defined as a deeper and deeper exploration of the chosen openings. Some of you may laugh at my admitting to owning more chess books than I have read: not often seen in your ranks, I'm sure! I just finished my 1st opening book devoted to but a single opening: McDonald's "Ruy Lopez, Move by Move." Comparing that to Silecki's "1.e4" and similar I can't tell you how much more helpful the former was to me. Even if there might be much my beginner status may have missed, knowing I was going to focus on the same opening throughout really propelled me onwards. I don't know if you consider it a mere intro-book, but its broad survey of most of what White may face from Black, along with lots of helpful annotations to try and absorb made it a very important read for me.

Bottom line: I think beginner's will get the most from such an effort if you - 1. begin with an general survey of the history, usage, theory of openings with an eye to their role in adopting a (hopefully) favorable middlegame. 2. Resolve on a few famous, but useful openings that will be developed to real depth by the end of the course. 3. Include a sub-section within each chapter offering practical advice on that level's influence on the future of your middle game.

Again FWIW,

Cathexis

  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
ReneDescartes
God Member
*****
Offline


Qu'est-ce donc que je
suis? Une chose qui pense.

Posts: 1236
Joined: 05/17/10
Gender: Male
Re: Opening Repertoire How-To
Reply #1 - 02/25/21 at 16:38:26
Post Tools
It's a great idea, but a lot of work! I know what you mean about the actual openings not mattering so much.

I know a coach who won prizes for little kiddies (1st, 2nd grade) by teaching them to get through the opening with the Caro-Kann. Their opponents had no idea  how to conduct a proper attack, so they had few disasters in the opening. The head of the school loved the prizes, and the kids were probably only mildly crippled for life. I ran into another coach who won prizes for little kiddies by taking the opposite approach. He told them them that knights are worth more than rooks, they should bring their queen out early to h5 against even the French and Sicilian (but not the Modern, one supposes), and that the pawns that matter are on c2 and f7. That was much more grotesque, but it probably didn't hurt the students so much, because at least they engaged in active piece play when they weren't behind in development. Eventually they found out that rooks are worth more than knights.

The truth is that a lot of opening skill is for the moment useless for the class players that learn it; rather, it's sound preparation and forming good habits for future gain. It's like little kids learning about "function machines"--students are given preparation, but they don't know for what. Even once functions appear in the curriculum without a disguise, they are nothing but an alternate notation for y until trigonometry, and in truth you don't need function notation to solve problems until you start composing and inverting and transforming functions in calculus. In chess openings, we have to teach central control to prepare a wing attack for students that don't know how to attack the king or the queenside, pawn levers to open files for students that don't know to control them or use them once they have them, pawn structure for students that can't win by attacking  pawn weaknesses, and so on.

The most efficient approach, it seems to me, would be for the lines for various player classes to be largely the same, but with varying cutoffs and omissions. Each chapter could use the the last chapter or its index as a starting point and introduce some new concepts along with some new opening moves that depend on those concepts. Accordingly, one could talk about development for beginners, central control and attack for D players, pawn breaks for C players, pawn weaknesses for B players, etc. One could also teach a little middlegame skill in each chapter along with the opening ideas that depend on the techniques. 

I actually think that the most important functions of such a book would be (1) to reassure students that it's ok to stop and (2)to use the fascination and fear of the opening to lure readers into learning the middlegame concepts they really need.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
an ordinary chessplayer
God Member
*****
Offline


I used to be not bad.

Posts: 1692
Location: Columbus, OH (USA)
Joined: 01/02/15
Opening Repertoire How-To
02/24/21 at 18:15:32
Post Tools
Quoting myself here:
Quote:
The one course they should be offering is "Complete Guide to Creating an Opening Repertoire", structured by level the same as Silman's Complete Endgame Course: From Beginner to Expert.

I don't see why we here at chesspub could not do this as an exercise in crowdsourcing. What are the steps for creating an opening repertoire, by level. Identify the steps, then just do the steps, level by level. The actual opening repertoire literally doesn't matter, it's the process that's important. Just pick an opening, any opening, one for white one for black. Start at step one, level one, identify, do, move on.

It might take years to complete, it may actually never be complete, but could still be enormously useful.

Step zero: list the levels.
  1. Just learned the rules, playing on lichess.org.
  2. Joined a club.
  3. Playing rated OTB.
  4. Improver, class C,B,A.
  5. CM.
  6. NM/FM.
  7. You are on your own.

Is that a good list?

Level one, step one: ? 

Please don't say "beginners don't need a repertoire", that's a cop-out. Every chessplayer needs an opening repertoire at every stage, because every game begins in the opening. It's just the repertoire needs of a beginner are rudimentary. Every book has a chapter one.

P.S. I'm well aware there's nothing stopping someone from copy/pasting our efforts into a pdf book and selling the result on amazon. Could catch a few customers unaware. It's worth doing anyway.

P.P.S. Cue brabo telling us he already did all this on his blog, in 3,2,1...
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Page Index Toggle Pages: 1 2 3 [4] 
Topic Tools
Bookmarks: del.icio.us Digg Facebook Google Google+ Linked in reddit StumbleUpon Twitter Yahoo