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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) 2...Nf6 3.Bb5+ (Read 1268 times)
HAJS
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Re: 2...Nf6 3.Bb5+
Reply #13 - 03/11/21 at 20:44:53
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kylemeister wrote on 03/11/21 at 17:05:20:
HAJS wrote on 03/11/21 at 16:15:31:
The game Gonzalez Vidal, Yuri vs. Shishkov, Andrei, 2016 is as close one can get to theory after 5...Bc8 .

I notice that Black's 16th deviates from a 30-year-old game (Gurgenidze-Sturua) cited by Emms in Nunn's Chess Openings.  (He gave the line as equal.)


Qc8 is an interesting move in the game you reference but c6 has the same idea of bringing the a8 rook to d8 and queen to c7 while at the same time preventing white from playing d5.
  
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Re: 2...Nf6 3.Bb5+
Reply #12 - 03/11/21 at 17:05:20
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HAJS wrote on 03/11/21 at 16:15:31:
The game Gonzalez Vidal, Yuri vs. Shishkov, Andrei, 2016 is as close one can get to theory after 5...Bc8 .

I notice that Black's 16th deviates from a 30-year-old game (Gurgenidze-Sturua) cited by Emms in Nunn's Chess Openings.  (He gave the line as equal.)
  
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Re: 2...Nf6 3.Bb5+
Reply #11 - 03/11/21 at 16:15:31
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MNb wrote on 03/11/21 at 07:39:40:
HAJS wrote on 03/10/21 at 18:04:21:
[quote author=496269780B0 link=1615316628/1#1 date=1615335480]
1. e4 d5 2. exd5 Nf6 3. Bb5+ Bd7 4. Bc4 Bg4 5. f3 Bc8 6. Nc3 .....  6... Nbd7 7. Nge2

7.d4 with a long lasting risk free +=, as I wrote in my first comment.



I completely agree with your assessment of +=.

The game Gonzalez Vidal, Yuri vs. Shishkov, Andrei, 2016 is as close one can get to theory after 5...Bc8 .

1. e4 d5 2. exd5 Nf6 3. Bb5+ Bd7 4. Bc4 Bg4 5. f3 Bc8 6. Nc3 Nbd7 7. Nge2 Nb6
8. Bb3 Nbxd5 9. Nxd5 Nxd5 10. d4 e6 11. O-O Be7 12. c4 Nf6 13. Be3 O-O 14. Nc3
b6 15. Qe2 Ba6 16. Qf2 c6 17. Rfd1 Qc7 18. d5 Bd6 19. Qh4 cxd5 20. cxd5 Bc5 21.
Bxc5 Qxc5+ 22. Kh1 exd5 23. Nxd5 Nxd5 24. Rxd5 Qc6 25. Qf4 Rac8 26. Rd4 Qc7 27.
Qd2 Rfd8 28. Re1 Bb5 29. Rxd8+ Qxd8 30. Qb4 Be8 31. h3 g6 32. Qf4 Kg7 33. Re4
Qf6 34. Qe3 Qc6 35. Kh2 a5 36. f4 Kf8 37. Rc4 Qb7 38. Rxc8 Qxc8 39. Qxb6 a4 40.
Bxa4 Bxa4 41. Qb4+ Kg8 42. Qxa4 h5 43. Qd4 Qc1 44. b4 Qe1 45. f5 gxf5 46. b5 h4
47. Qf4 1-0

15.Qe2 might be necessary otherwise after for example 15.Re1 (the computers top choice) Black looks like he equalizes with 15.c5 (you get the isolated pawns but it should be holdable with some work).

In the game after 17.Qc7 White is a slightly better but the position for Black nevertheless looks quite acceptable to me. This assessment may of course come down to personal style. To me it just means that we are already on move 17 and Black has still to do a little work before he achieves complete equality.

What is your opinion, is it not recommended to play like this, i.e. are the positions simply too pleasant for White (no fun to be had for Black)? I suppose one has to weight the benefits of playing a less common 2...Nf6 against having to play the above positions.
  
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Re: 2...Nf6 3.Bb5+
Reply #10 - 03/11/21 at 14:58:37
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MNb wrote on 03/11/21 at 07:39:40:
HAJS wrote on 03/10/21 at 18:04:21:
[quote author=496269780B0 link=1615316628/1#1 date=1615335480]
1. e4 d5 2. exd5 Nf6 3. Bb5+ Bd7 4. Bc4 Bg4 5. f3 Bc8 6. Nc3 .....  6... Nbd7 7. Nge2

7.d4 with a long lasting risk free +=, as I wrote in my first comment.

You may like it. By choosing some other line, white can get try to get a longer-lasting, or more risk-free, or bigger +=. In particular, if it's just some normal Scandinavian structure, I want my pawn on f2, not f3.

MNb wrote on 03/11/21 at 07:39:40:
an ordinary chessplayer wrote on 03/10/21 at 21:57:08:
I know what you mean about 5...Bf5 vs 5...Bc8. At first sight it seems like 6.g4 is a free move, why let white have that? But it's also a commitment.

The point of 5...Bf5 rather is provoking 6.g4. That move looks superficially aggressive, but actually gives Black exactly what he/she wants: irrational, complex play.

White wants to play g2-g4 here, it's how white keeps the extra pawn. E.g. Fischer - Bergraser
https://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1044260
When you see something your opponent wants to do, the usual strategies are to prevent it somehow, or create counterplay somewhere else on the board. Provoking it in order to exploit it is not much discussed. g2-g4 is a horrible move positionally, which white has to live with basically forever. Black can play a gambit with ...c7-c6, in that case with white I want both my f- and g-pawns unmoved.

Maybe I should revisit this line. Engines can make one much braver about playing anti-positional moves just to keep a pawn.
  
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Re: 2...Nf6 3.Bb5+
Reply #9 - 03/11/21 at 07:39:40
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HAJS wrote on 03/10/21 at 18:04:21:
[quote author=496269780B0 link=1615316628/1#1 date=1615335480]
1. e4 d5 2. exd5 Nf6 3. Bb5+ Bd7 4. Bc4 Bg4 5. f3 Bc8 6. Nc3 .....  6... Nbd7 7. Nge2

7.d4 with a long lasting risk free +=, as I wrote in my first comment.

an ordinary chessplayer wrote on 03/10/21 at 21:57:08:
I know what you mean about 5...Bf5 vs 5...Bc8. At first sight it seems like 6.g4 is a free move, why let white have that? But it's also a commitment.

The point of 5...Bf5 rather is provoking 6.g4. That move looks superficially aggressive, but actually gives Black exactly what he/she wants: irrational, complex play.
  

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Re: 2...Nf6 3.Bb5+
Reply #8 - 03/10/21 at 23:20:03
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an ordinary chessplayer wrote on 03/10/21 at 21:57:08:
I know what you mean about 5...Bf5 vs 5...Bc8. At first sight it seems like 6.g4 is a free move, why let white have that? But it's also a commitment.

I analyzed 3.Bb5+ some 25 years ago, because we had a 2...Nf6 specialist at the club. My basic reference was Edwards (1987) The Scandinavian Defense Book I - The Modern Variation. I don't know if there was ever a Book II. I also looked at a lot of other theory books. I knew Spassky and Fischer had both won with it, so I thought maybe it would be a good sharp try for advantage. But Spassky won against a relatively weak Scandinavian specialist that he had prepared for. Fischer won against a correspondence master in an OTB tournament. And what I found is theory had long ago rejected this attempt to hang on to the pawn. So I ended up preparing a quieter response to 2...Nf6.

After 5...Bf5 6.g4 Bc8 I would rather be black(!). 5...Bc8 is also playable and even the older 5...Bf5 6.g4 Bg6 has been strengthened. So you have more than one way to play it. If you had a specific question I would have to re-install my old Bookup program to look at my Scandinavian database. We'll see about that.


That was a helpful comment and it gave me a good clue. Perhaps you are right that g4 is a commitment and 6.g4 Bc8 can maybe somehow be exploited by offering a pawn with c6 as the computer suggests and which I have is very typical for many of the Nf6 variations. Indeed, as Caruana-Akobian, White refrained from g4 with 6.Nc3 instead and waits for Black to play 6...Nbd7. Nevertheless, Akobian must have checked 7.g4 Nb6 8.Nb6 and thought Black was okay otherwise he probably wouldn't have played it against a player like Caruana.

Black also has 3...Nbd7 and there are some merits to this move that makes it worht to consider.

The perhaps more quiet variations with c2-c4 I find to be less trying than 3.Bb5+. Then White should play the mover order 3.Nf3 Nxd5 4.d4 and now I think Black's best is 4.Nf6.
  
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Re: 2...Nf6 3.Bb5+
Reply #7 - 03/10/21 at 21:57:08
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I know what you mean about 5...Bf5 vs 5...Bc8. At first sight it seems like 6.g4 is a free move, why let white have that? But it's also a commitment.

I analyzed 3.Bb5+ some 25 years ago, because we had a 2...Nf6 specialist at the club. My basic reference was Edwards (1987) The Scandinavian Defense Book I - The Modern Variation. I don't know if there was ever a Book II. I also looked at a lot of other theory books. I knew Spassky and Fischer had both won with it, so I thought maybe it would be a good sharp try for advantage. But Spassky won against a relatively weak Scandinavian specialist that he had prepared for. Fischer won against a correspondence master in an OTB tournament. And what I found is theory had long ago rejected this attempt to hang on to the pawn. So I ended up preparing a quieter response to 2...Nf6.

After 5...Bf5 6.g4 Bc8 I would rather be black(!). 5...Bc8 is also playable and even the older 5...Bf5 6.g4 Bg6 has been strengthened. So you have more than one way to play it. If you had a specific question I would have to re-install my old Bookup program to look at my Scandinavian database. We'll see about that.
  
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Re: 2...Nf6 3.Bb5+
Reply #6 - 03/10/21 at 18:09:49
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MNb wrote on 03/10/21 at 01:13:47:
On 3...Nbd7 you should consult GM Sherdon's book on the Scandinavian for all the wild stuff.


Thank you for the book recommendation. I will definitely check it out even though I agree with your assessment of 5...Bf5.
  
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Re: 2...Nf6 3.Bb5+
Reply #5 - 03/10/21 at 18:04:21
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Bibs wrote on 03/10/21 at 00:18:00:
To possibly make for better ‘conversations’, perhaps you could start off with some notes, some comments, as a starting point? What have you found thus far in your resources?

Very friendly on the whole here, but it’s good to show initial input here and in any online community,  and avoid possible adverse reactions to what may be seen to be a ‘you feed me’ type post.

All the best to you and all,

B


I understand your point Bibs (and an ordinary chessplayer) and agree this is a bad way to start a post. I repent my sins and will try to contribute in a better way going forward!

TopNotch wrote on 03/10/21 at 01:02:13:
@HAJS

Caruana,F vs Akobian,V (2016) & Arenas Vanegas, D vs Bergez, Luc (2019) are still important references and as far as I know and White looks to be better in all lines, how much better though is up for debate.


Both of these games feature 5...Bf5. I feel this move is wrong. The bishop still ends up on c8 eventually without seemingly having performed a concrete task and I do not see the point of provoking g2-g4. Better seems to be to return the bishop to c8 (5...Bc8) after which I would consider 6.Nc3, 6.Bb3 (to play play c2-c4) and 6.Bb5+.

I do not know if there have been any theoretical debate after 6...Bc8 probably not. Nevertheless, to get the conversation going here is some very superficial analysis for anyone to comment on. How much worse is Black in such position in your opinion?

1. e4 d5 2. exd5 Nf6 3. Bb5+ Bd7 4. Bc4 Bg4 5. f3 Bc8 6. Nc3 (6. Bb5+ Nbd7 7.
c4 (7. Nc3 a6 8. Ba4 b5 9. Bb3 Nb6 10. Nge2 Bb7 11. O-O Nfxd5 12. a4 b4 (12...
Qd7 13. a5 Nxc3 14. Nxc3 Nd5 15. Ne4 e6 16. d4 {Black doesn't have any issues
here and can play to get rid of his only weakness on c5.}) 13. Ne4) 7... a6 8.
Bxd7+ (8. Ba4 b5 9. cxb5 Nxd5 10. bxa6 Bxa6 11. d4 Nb4 {The position speaks
for itself.}) 8... Bxd7 9. d4 e6 10. dxe6 Bxe6 11. d5 Bf5 {I believe the
computer when it says Black is fine here. I do not mind playing a pawn down
with the bishop pair in a position like this.}) 6... Nbd7 7. Nge2 Nb6 8. Bb3 (
8. Bb5+ Bd7 9. Bxd7+ Qxd7 10. O-O Nfxd5 11. Nxd5 Nxd5 12. c4 Nf6 13. d4) 8...
Nbxd5 9. Nxd5 Nxd5 10. c4 (10. O-O e6 11. c4 Nf6 12. d4 c5 13. d5 exd5 14. cxd5
(14. Re1 Be7 15. cxd5 O-O 16. Nc3 {Black might be fine here too.}) 14... Bd6
15. Bg5 O-O {Black might just be fine here.}) 10... Nf6 11. O-O (11. d4 e6 12.
Bf4 Bd6 13. Qd2 O-O 14. O-O-O b5 15. cxb5 Bb7 16. Bxd6 Qxd6 {I like Black's
position but of course we are a pawn down.}) 11... e5 12. d4 exd4 13. Qxd4
Qxd4+ 14. Nxd4 Bc5 15. Re1+ Be6 16. Be3 Bxd4 17. Bxd4 O-O {This is perhaps
what one can expect from this variation. White as a pleasant edge.}
  
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Re: 2...Nf6 3.Bb5+
Reply #4 - 03/10/21 at 03:36:56
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Bibs wrote on 03/10/21 at 00:18:00:
‘you feed me’

The first time I have wanted a like button on chesspub.
  
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Re: 2...Nf6 3.Bb5+
Reply #3 - 03/10/21 at 01:13:47
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HAJS wrote on 03/09/21 at 19:03:48:
What is the evaluation and theory in the 2...Nf6 Scandinavian after 3.Bb5+?

I think 3.Bb5+ Bd7 4.Bc4 Bg4 5.f3 Bf5 (Bc8) 6.Nc3 Nbd7 7.d4 Nb6 8.Bb5+ Bd7 9.Bd3 pleasant and easy for White.
From Black's perspective I'd like 4...b5 to work, but the modest 5.Be2 is annoying,

HAJS wrote on 03/09/21 at 19:03:48:
Any relevant resources or annotated games would be much appreciated.

HAJS

On 3...Nbd7 you should consult GM Sherdon's book on the Scandinavian for all the wild stuff; his treatment of solid stuff like 4.d4, 4.Nc3 and 4.Nf3 is superficial though.
In answer to GM Smerdon: 3.Bb5+ appeals to me because White can avoid all the risky lines, develop smoothly and fight for central control - ie simple classical opening play. Exactly that is what Black often dislikes; developing dangerous counterplay is impossible and completely equalizing is surprisingly hard.
The only relevant sources on these solid lines I'm aware of are databases and silicon power. I've never seen annotated games. It always has amazed me that authors expect White to suddenly cling to the pawn  at all costs or to start a premature pawn storm.
  

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Re: 2...Nf6 3.Bb5+
Reply #2 - 03/10/21 at 01:02:13
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@HAJS

Caruana,F vs Akobian,V (2016) & Arenas Vanegas, D vs Bergez, Luc (2019) are still important references and as far as I know and White looks to be better in all lines, how much better though is up for debate.
  

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Re: 2...Nf6 3.Bb5+
Reply #1 - 03/10/21 at 00:18:00
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To possibly make for better ‘conversations’, perhaps you could start off with some notes, some comments, as a starting point? What have you found thus far in your resources?

Very friendly on the whole here, but it’s good to show initial input here and in any online community,  and avoid possible adverse reactions to what may be seen to be a ‘you feed me’ type post.

All the best to you and all,

B
  
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2...Nf6 3.Bb5+
03/09/21 at 19:03:48
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Hello all,

What is the evaluation and theory in the 2...Nf6 Scandinavian after 3.Bb5+? Any relevant resources or annotated games would be much appreciated.

HAJS
  
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