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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Guerrillas Gambit Style (Read 4337 times)
hicetnunc
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Re: Guerrillas Gambit Style
Reply #10 - 03/29/21 at 10:01:07
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Bibs wrote on 03/29/21 at 07:26:24:
What does PGNspy say? Anyone use that?

Itís not just the moves of course. Itís clock times too.
And anything odd if players are on camera (this was a Petrosian issue iirc). When published ratings are known, itís also about SD and Z-scores too, as we know.

Note - I have no particular comment or opinion on this case. Iíve not seen the games yet, and know no one involved.


I have experience with pgn-spy, so I can have a look, but it's unlikely a 5-games sample is enough to reach solid conclusions for a player at this level.

I wasn't able to locate a pgn of the games though ?! Could someone help locate it ?
  

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Bibs
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Re: Guerrillas Gambit Style
Reply #9 - 03/29/21 at 08:32:13
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Yes, I share some of your feelings there TopNotch. The lack of a right of appeal leaves me feeling rather queasy. It does appear to run counter to proper and accepted ways of doing things.

Obviously the provider, whichever it may be for any of these events, does not wish to reveal too much of the means of identifying cheating, as it then becomes an arms race between cheaters and the websites. That canít happen, no. And I guess the content of the published statement would have been agreed in advance of such an event.

Presumably when providers announce big Ďcontravening the rulesí things like this, they believe they have the player(s) pretty much 100% bang to rights. Due to a mix of all types of evidence (as stated).

Iíll share a cheating story from OTB while I am here. (Have I said before? Itís possible.) 2004 Calvia Olympiad. Versus Hong Kong on board one. Neither player much good really (around 2200), must be said, but all countries can go and fight! The guy touched a piece, then tried to move another. Really blatant. Iíve never been so utterly shocked at the board - that he could even think of trying such, and even doing it. And at this flagship event too.
My reaction was a huge ĎWTF?í Complete shock (both were fairly short of time, near time control btw). I looked at him, looked around for a witness, in desperate hope. Incredibly, happily, an arbiter was right behind him and saw this unfold clearly. He made the HK player move the touched piece - a knight on the edge iirc. Phew. I won. Happy ending, but Iíll have words if I see the bloke again. Cheating ******d. Plus, huge respect to that arbiter who was alert and there. Wish I knew who.

Well, OTB canít be far off again for all of us, wherever we are. Six months, a year...

Cheers
B
  
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TopNotch
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Re: Guerrillas Gambit Style
Reply #8 - 03/29/21 at 07:42:35
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Bibs wrote on 03/29/21 at 03:50:39:


Thanks very much for bringing that scandal to my attention, a very curious case indeed. I have not analysed any of the games as yet so cannot reach any conclusions, but a few observations:

1. There needs to be more transparency, it is ludicrous to disqualify players deny them any right of appeal, claiming fair play violations but not necessarily cheating violations. This goes against all the laws of natural justice.

2. Cheating in Rapid Chess with an engine is more difficult to pull off simply due to the time control. Not impossible though, see the Tigran Petrosian case.

3. The panel claims to have physical evidence supporting their verdict of fair play violations, if that is the case they need to disclose it.

4.†The panel claims to have "Host internet platform (HIP)" evidence to support their claim of fair play violations, again they need to disclose exactly what this is and how the disqualified players are involved.

As it stands I sympathise with the players plight based on what has been presented thus far, which seems a lot like railroading and abuse of authority to me. Let's hope more comes to light in the coming weeks to clarify this situation.
  

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Bibs
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Re: Guerrillas Gambit Style
Reply #7 - 03/29/21 at 07:26:24
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What does PGNspy say? Anyone use that?

Itís not just the moves of course. Itís clock times too.
And anything odd if players are on camera (this was a Petrosian issue iirc). When published ratings are known, itís also about SD and Z-scores too, as we know.

Note - I have no particular comment or opinion on this case. Iíve not seen the games yet, and know no one involved.
  
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an ordinary chessplayer
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Re: Guerrillas Gambit Style
Reply #6 - 03/29/21 at 05:38:15
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First, I find it simply disingenuous to say someone was disqualified for fair play violations, but that does not mean it was "actual" cheating.

I played through the Iulija Osmak games and it seems inconclusive to me. She played a lot of very good moves, but she certainly did not play any crazy "engine move". Sure, she played great and her opponents did not, but at least two of her opponents put themselves in time pressure pretty early. In another one she was behind early but just managed the clock better. Overall her time usage makes sense for human play. Maybe things just went her way and she was never under pressure. Or maybe she cheated. She only played 174 moves in the five games, it's pretty slim evidence statistically.
  
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Bibs
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Re: Guerrillas Gambit Style
Reply #5 - 03/29/21 at 03:50:39
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TopNotch
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Re: Guerrillas Gambit Style
Reply #4 - 03/29/21 at 03:24:36
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Jupp53 wrote on 03/28/21 at 10:22:55:
Dividing this is the problem. It will become more and more difficult in consequence of the technical development.

Chess otb without electronical help.
Correspondence chess with all technical support allowed.
Centaur tournaments.

These are three easy and clear cut ways and everybody interested in each of it is imo a serious lover of the game.

Chess.com and Lichess suffer from the idea to be able to stop engine use in correspondence chess. They are able to detect it often. But it will be always a game of hide and seek with changing winners. I don't know it exactly. But I assume on my level FIDE 2000~ it is meanwhile easy to detect engine use till rapid time control and secure enough till classic time controls.

So most games are secure enough. The problem is more difficult if top levels are touched. Maybe I'm too indolent. What do I care about football players taking drugs? What do I care about bicycle tours accompagnied by well known doping helpers?


The problem is not with Corr chess, or Engine Chess the problem is that many players are not interested in having Engine assisted vs Engine Assisted contest, the problem is they want to use Engine assistance against fellow players to boost their results and ego while pretending they are not and when they get caught they cry and bleat and complain and deny and make excuses and beg for mercy and understanding and forgiveness. I would forgive them but only after a life ban was imposed, the only way I would consider not imposing a life ban† was if a cheater volunteeringly came forward before being caught and confessed his crimes.

Results, prestige, medals, validation once stolen is difficult and in some cases impossible to restore. I see exposure and life bans as important remedies to have at one's disposal in dealing with this scourge along with the stripping of any held titles etc. of course.

  

The man who tries to do something and fails is infinitely better than he who tries to do nothing and succeeds - Lloyd Jones Smiley
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TopNotch
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Re: Guerrillas Gambit Style
Reply #3 - 03/29/21 at 03:15:58
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an ordinary chessplayer wrote on 03/28/21 at 05:04:16:
TopNotch wrote on 03/27/21 at 23:56:07:
Point 6 is particularly troubling as FIDE is about to introduce so called hybrid tournaments, where players will be able to compete for 'OTB' IM & GM norms. Online engine cheating has already spiralled out of control and I shudder to think what the implications of introducing 'Hybrid' rated tournaments will mean for the integrity of our game.


Not sure about your objection here. Are you confusing Hybrid chess with Centaur chess? Hybrid chess refers to a player using a DGT board in the presence of an arbiter, with the opponent doing the same thing in a remote location. I would rate the risk of cheating to be somewhat higher than a typical OTB tournament, but astronomically lower than the online tournaments currently being held. Basically the only way to cheat is to have a corrupt arbiter, but even that might not be sufficient to get away with it.


If the arbiter is from the same country and that country has a vested interest in gaining more titled players, then it is a serious conflict of interest and just the appearance of a conflict of interest is a problem. Moreover most of the cheating does not happen directly in front of the Arbiter, usually outside assistance is involved or some sort of Restroom shinanigens so a DGT board and the presence of an arbiter is irrelevant to this argument.

What is more pertinent is that the Opponent in a Hybrid match is in a remote location, and it is the opponent who has the most to lose when facing a cheater. In most cases it is the opposing player or players protecting their own self interests that eventually lead to these cheaters being caught, Arbiters for the most part have no skin in the game and many really couldn't care less.
« Last Edit: 03/29/21 at 07:07:52 by TopNotch »  

The man who tries to do something and fails is infinitely better than he who tries to do nothing and succeeds - Lloyd Jones Smiley
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Jupp53
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Re: Guerrillas Gambit Style
Reply #2 - 03/28/21 at 10:22:55
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Dividing this is the problem. It will become more and more difficult in consequence of the technical development.

Chess otb without electronical help.
Correspondence chess with all technical support allowed.
Centaur tournaments.

These are three easy and clear cut ways and everybody interested in each of it is imo a serious lover of the game.

Chess.com and Lichess suffer from the idea to be able to stop engine use in correspondence chess. They are able to detect it often. But it will be always a game of hide and seek with changing winners. I don't know it exactly. But I assume on my level FIDE 2000~ it is meanwhile easy to detect engine use till rapid time control and secure enough till classic time controls.

So most games are secure enough. The problem is more difficult if top levels are touched. Maybe I'm too indolent. What do I care about football players taking drugs? What do I care about bicycle tours accompagnied by well known doping helpers?
  

Medical textbooks say I should be dead since April 2002.
Dum spiro spero. Smiley
Narcissm is the humans primary disease.
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Re: Guerrillas Gambit Style
Reply #1 - 03/28/21 at 05:04:16
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TopNotch wrote on 03/27/21 at 23:56:07:
Point 6 is particularly troubling as FIDE is about to introduce so called hybrid tournaments, where players will be able to compete for 'OTB' IM & GM norms. Online engine cheating has already spiralled out of control and I shudder to think what the implications of introducing 'Hybrid' rated tournaments will mean for the integrity of our game.


Not sure about your objection here. Are you confusing Hybrid chess with Centaur chess? Hybrid chess refers to a player using a DGT board in the presence of an arbiter, with the opponent doing the same thing in a remote location. I would rate the risk of cheating to be somewhat higher than a typical OTB tournament, but astronomically lower than the online tournaments currently being held. Basically the only way to cheat is to have a corrupt arbiter, but even that might not be sufficient to get away with it.
  
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TopNotch
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Guerrillas Gambit Style
03/27/21 at 23:56:07
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The below comments were made by one of our more controversial members in a by now infamous and locked thread. Nevertheless, while I agree that many of his posts are combative, some of his points still remain salient:

"(5) After Kasparov lost to Depp Blue in 1997, it became clear that humans should play humans and computers should play computers. Point is, a machine has a database programmed and can think faster, while a human cannot.  Likewise, the prevalence of chess engines has taken a lot of fun out of correspondence chess. This is because some 1500 can use a chess engine to win games, with people being none the wiser.

(6) I have seen chess sites where cheaters have been banned by the thousands. Why do you think I am distrustful of correspondence chess to a certain extent? Because there is the possibility that you are not playing against a human but against his computer!!

So, there you have my responses. If you want to play me in an OTB  game, say G/30 on Internet Chess Club or some other site, let me know.

Thank you for your attention."

Point 6 is particularly troubling as FIDE is about to introduce so called hybrid tournaments, where players will be able to compete for 'OTB' IM & GM norms. Online engine cheating has already spiralled out of control and I shudder to think what the implications of introducing 'Hybrid' rated tournaments will mean for the integrity of our game.

The CEO of Chess.com, IM Danny Rensch has stated that if people knew not only how rampant but also who engaged in online cheating it would shock them to the core. Many caught  cheaters still enjoy anonymity, and in my opinion that needs to change if online tournaments are to stand any chance of legitimacy.

Some of the titled players that have been caught and banned: Tal Baron; Tigran Petrosian; Akshat Chandra; Maxim Dlugy; Igors Rausis; Nigalidze Georgiadis; Sťbastien Feller <--- (This guy should have been banned for life for sure) In general the punishment for offenders continues to be way too slight, so until that changes the cheating trend will continue to rise. By the way the number of GM's and IM's that have been caught cheating in Titled Tuesday and other online events is scary according to Danny Rensch, and it's not isolated to any one Gender, for instance if anyone deserves a life ban it would be Patrycja Waszczuk  see full story here:  https://chess24.com/en/read/news/17-year-old-european-chess-champion-gets-2-year...

We simply must stop coddling these serial offenders.
  

The man who tries to do something and fails is infinitely better than he who tries to do nothing and succeeds - Lloyd Jones Smiley
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