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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) 3 Nc3 d6 4 Be3 a6 5 Qd2 b5 6 0-0-0 Nd7 7 h4 h6!? (Read 1241 times)
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Re: 3 Nc3 d6 4 Be3 a6 5 Qd2 b5 6 0-0-0 Nd7 7 h4 h6!?
Reply #11 - 09/17/21 at 16:30:48
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I'd prefer 7.Bd3 but even more so 6.h4 or 5.h4.
I intended to buy the volume with the Pirc as well, but am not so sure now.
  

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Re: 3 Nc3 d6 4 Be3 a6 5 Qd2 b5 6 0-0-0 Nd7 7 h4 h6!?
Reply #10 - 09/17/21 at 12:57:37
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Hi.

I notice Gawain Jones, in his Cofeehouse repertoire, simply plays f3 if:
1.e4 g6 2.d4 Bg7 3.Nc3 d6 4.Be3 a6 5.Qd2 b5 6.0-0-0 Bb7
gets played. I think I will go buy those books later today.

Edit: second volume not yet out. Do'h!

Have a nice day.
« Last Edit: 09/17/21 at 20:50:31 by Confused_by_Theory »  
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Re: 3 Nc3 d6 4 Be3 a6 5 Qd2 b5 6 0-0-0 Nd7 7 h4 h6!?
Reply #9 - 09/12/21 at 22:00:09
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Hi.

Haven't really had time to ponder the consequences of 6...Nd7 compared to 6...Bb7. As you allude to it is probably a somewhat important decision.

If one wants to be totally consistent with these h6 setups one would probably even need to consider if the choice between Bb7 and Nd7 is the same with or without h4 and h6 played. In other words in these two positions:
1.e4 g6 2.d4 Bg7 3.Nc3 d6 4.Be3 a6 5.Qd2 b5 6.0-0-0
1.e4 g6 2.d4 Bg7 3.Nc3 d6 4.Be3 a6 5.Qd2 b5 6.h4 h6 7.O-O-O

If there is something that speaks for Nd7 in both positions it is likely that after:
1.e4 g6 2.d4 Bg7 3.Nc3 d6 4.Be3 a6 5.Qd2 b5 6.O-O-O Nd7 7.h4 h6 8.Bd3
Black is perhaps not forced to play with 8...Bb7. Options honestly doesn't look totally inspiring but maybe 8...Rb8!? is playable.

As a sidenote not strictly relating to h4 vs h6 positions I still think you can consider going for Tiger's:
1.e4 g6 2.d4 Bg7 3.Nc3 d6 4.Be3 a6 5.Qd2 b5 6.O-O-O Nd7 7.h4 h5 8.Nh3 c6!? (9.Ng5)
Apart from Tiger's 9...Qc7 (Tiger 2014, p.155) 9...Nb6 and 9...Nh6!? both look interesting. Quite non-forcing positions in general. Probably worthy of some investigation. My point more specifically is that having all these options with the Bishop on c8 and not b7 is probably an upside of waiting with the bishop on move six.

That's probably it though.

When it comes to
1.e4 g6 2.d4 Bg7 3.Nc3 d6 4.Be3 a6 5.Qd2 b5 6.O-O-O Bb7
It does absolutely have a big point if white feels he needs to play f3. The most interesting try has to be ignoring the threat of b5-b4 and Bxe4 as white though.
7.h4!? b4 8.8.Nce2 Bxe4 9.h5 is decent compensation in case of 9...a5 10.d5!? and otherwise you win back the pawn as white by Qxb4 and should keep some kind of kingside pressure.

If
1.e4 g6 2.d4 Bg7 3.Nc3 d6 4.Be3 a6 5.Qd2 b5 6.O-O-O Bb7 7.h4 h6
white can again go for 8.Bd3 but also has
8.f4!? b4!?
8...h5 is probably safer but in some sense loses a tempo so it would be nice if something else worked.
9.Nce2 Bxe4 10.Ng3 with decent compensation.

Have a nice day.
  
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Michael Ayton
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Re: 3 Nc3 d6 4 Be3 a6 5 Qd2 b5 6 0-0-0 Nd7 7 h4 h6!?
Reply #8 - 08/22/21 at 22:20:49
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MEA CULPA!!

Sincere apologies to you, C_b_T, and to anyone else who looked at the stem position I gave in the title of this thread, which … should actually never appear on the board!

My error was in blindly copying my old notes. Had I instead looked at my new ones, I’d have recalled that after 5 Qd2 b5 6 0-0-0, Black should play 6 …Bb7! and not 6 …Nd7?!. Of course I did not know, until C_b_T pointed it out, that after 7 h4, 7 …h6 runs into 8 e5! (which I think is really dangerous for Black), and that is an important theoretical find! But I did know that 7 …h5 8 Nh3 is difficult for Black, since the position after 8 …Bb7 9 Ng5 (where White hasn’t wasted time with f2–f3) is one Black should avoid, while after 8 …c6 9 Ng5 Qc7 10 f3 Ngf6 11 Kb1, 11 …0-0 runs into 12 g4! (old stuff) and 11 …Bb7 12 g3!? is also good for White.

With [6 0-0-0] 6 …Bb7! Black avoids all this, and with this Bishop active on the long diagonal e4–e5 stuff largely loses its sting; now 7 h4 h6! (7 …h5?! 8 Nh3! Nd7 9 Ng5, as above) 8 f3 Nd7 leads to the positions I mentioned in my initial post, as of course does 8 f3 Nd7 9 h4 h6. Alternatively, 6 h4 h6 (on 6 …h5 7 0-0-0 Black has alternatives to 7 …Bb7?! 8 Nh3 ∆ Ng5!) 7 0-0-0 Bb7! 8 f3 Nd7, or 7 f3 Nd7 8 0-0-0 Bb7, transposes. Theoretically, after 6 0-0-0 the point of 6 …Bb7 is to provoke f2–f3 (either immediately or after h4 h6), but I prefer to think of it in terms of Black needing to meet the active 0-0-0 with an active response; delaying that with …Nd7?! seems just too passive.

There is one …Bb7-based position where White can play e4–e5, and that occurs after 6 0-0-0 Bb7! 7 f3 Nd7 8 h4 h5 9 Nh3, but here White has already spent time on f2–f3, so after 9 …Rc8! 10 Ng5 (I suppose 10 e5 is possible here, but it doesn't seem too dangerous) c5 11 e5 cd 12 e6 fe 13 Bd4 e5, Black has sufficient counterplay, according to Tiger Hillarp-Persson.
  
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Re: 3 Nc3 d6 4 Be3 a6 5 Qd2 b5 6 0-0-0 Nd7 7 h4 h6!?
Reply #7 - 08/13/21 at 08:10:33
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Hi.

I also analysed some options

12.Nf4!? g5 13.hxg5 hxg5 14.Nfe2 g4 15.Rxh8 Bxh8 16.Rh1 Bg7 17.Bh6 Bxg2!
17...Bxh6 18.Rxh6 c5 19.dxc5 Qc7 20.cxd6 Qxd6 21.g3!? Seems like a small pull for white.
18.Bxg7 Bxh1 19.Bxf8 Kd7 20.Bg7 Qg8 21.Qh6 Bf3 Is probably acceptable for black.

12.Rhe1 b4 13.Na4 Nd5 14.c4 bxc3 15.Naxc3 Qd7
Looks more or less ok for black.

12.a3!? Qd7

12...Kd7 Actually works here as well it appears. Got a bit sad when I realised as this means just playing a3 and waiting is not quite as clever of an idea. Still seems to have some point though.
13.f3
13.Nf4 O-O-O 14.Bxg6
14.f3 g5 15.hxg5 hxg5 16.Rxh8 gxf4 17.Rxf8 Rxf8 18.Bxf4 Qe8 Black seems ok.
14...Nxg6 15.Nxg6 Rhg8 16.f3 Qe8 17.h5 Nxh5
17...e5? Is a weird Leela suggestion. 18.dxe5 Nxh5 19.Nd5 Bxd5 20.Qxd5 Qxg6 21.e6! Kb8 22.Rxh5 Qxg2 23.Kb1! Rgf8 24.Qc6 Qxf3 25.Qxa6 Qxd1+ 26.Ka2 c5 27.Bxc5! dxc5 28.Qxb5+ Ka8 29.Rxc5 Qd5+ 30.Rxd5 Rxd5 31.Qxd5+ White wins.
18.Nxe7+ Qxe7 19.Rxh5 Is perhaps mildly better for white, but black has potential for counterplay with his nice bishops. )
13...Bc6
13...O-O-O 14.Bf2 Nd5 15.Kb1 Is more positional. White is not in a hurry despite being down a pawn and will try to probe slowly. Black has a playable position though.
14.Nf4 a5 15.Rh3 b4 16.Nce2 Bb5
16...g5 17.hxg5 hxg5 18.Rxh8 Bxh8 19.Rh1 gxf4? 20.Rxh8 fxe3 21.Bg6+ Kd8 22.Rxf8+ Ne8 23.Qxe3 Is cute.
17.Nxg6
17.Rg3 g5 18.hxg5 hxg5 19.Rxg5 Bxd3 20.Rxg7 Bh7 21.axb4?! axb4 22.Qxb4 c5 With counterplay.
17...Nxg6 18.Bxg6+ Kd8 19.Nf4 bxa3 20.bxa3 Nd5 21.Nxd5 exd5 22.Rg3
Doesn't look impressive but also not totally comfortable for black. His position is a bit split and both h6 and a5 are somewhat weak.

Instinctively 10.Nh3 with the idea of waiting with Bd3 should be an option as well; although I haven't looked at it.

Have a nice day.
  
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Re: 3 Nc3 d6 4 Be3 a6 5 Qd2 b5 6 0-0-0 Nd7 7 h4 h6!?
Reply #6 - 08/13/21 at 08:01:02
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Hello.

Michael Ayton wrote on 08/10/21 at 18:47:41:
H'mm, that ...Kd7 plan looks highly artificial to me. I haven't managed to have a real look at it, but 12 ...Qd7 and 13 ...0-0-0 seems the obvious thing to examine -- maybe Black can simplify with ...Nd5 and/or tee up for ...c7-c5?

Yea. trying to go Qd7 and 0-0-0 is the second way of going about things. It doesn't really defend g6 though, which would seem like a drawback. On the other hand if white goes for the most straightforward:

1.e4 g6 2.d4 Bg7 3.Nc3 d6 4.Be3 a6 5.Qd2 b5 6.h4 h6 7.O-O-O Nd7 8.e5 Bb7 9.e6 fxe6 10.Bd3 Nf8 11.Nge2 Nf6 12.f3 Qd7 13.Nf4
Your suggestion of:
13...0-0-0
Seems to give black certain chances of finding positional factors to compensate for giving back the extra pawn. That being said I would be worried about white going for greed with:
14.Bxg6!?
14.Nxg6 Nxg6 15.Bxg6 b4 16.Ne2 Nd5 Does look playable for a black player with enough belief in the fundamentals of his or her position being ok.
14...Nxg6
14...e5 15.dxe5 dxe5 16.Bf5 exf4 17.Bxd7+ Rxd7 18.Qe2 fxe3 Seems fun but it also looks like black comes under some pressure from temporarily being a bit dis-coordinated.
15.Nxg6 Rhg8 16.Bxh6 Bxh6 17.Qxh6 Qe8 18.Nf4 b4 19.Nce2(D)
Maybe white is inconvenienced enough to have some problems in demonstrating the value of the now white material advantage. Looks risky though.

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Have a nice day.
  
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Re: 3 Nc3 d6 4 Be3 a6 5 Qd2 b5 6 0-0-0 Nd7 7 h4 h6!?
Reply #5 - 08/10/21 at 18:47:41
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H'mm, that ...Kd7 plan looks highly artificial to me. I haven't managed to have a real look at it, but 12 ...Qd7 and 13 ...0-0-0 seems the obvious thing to examine -- maybe Black can simplify with ...Nd5 and/or tee up for ...c7-c5?

Stigma wrote on 08/09/21 at 23:08:01:
POW = Prisoner Of War, right?! Wow, glad to hear you got out of that one! Which war, if I may ask?

Nah, until the pressure of work struck (pow!), I was partying on wheels, while protecting our wildlife. Cheesy

  
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Re: 3 Nc3 d6 4 Be3 a6 5 Qd2 b5 6 0-0-0 Nd7 7 h4 h6!?
Reply #4 - 08/09/21 at 23:08:01
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Michael Ayton wrote on 08/08/21 at 19:49:33:
Sorry to have been ‘absent’ for yonks and yonks! About time POW was a thing of the past over here …


POW = Prisoner Of War, right?! Wow, glad to hear you got out of that one! Which war, if I may ask?
  

Improvement begins at the edge of your comfort zone. -Jonathan Rowson
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Re: 3 Nc3 d6 4 Be3 a6 5 Qd2 b5 6 0-0-0 Nd7 7 h4 h6!?
Reply #3 - 08/09/21 at 19:25:42
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Hi.

No worries.

As to who comes up with suggestions... sure it's all me - completely unaided Smiley.

Michael Ayton wrote on 08/08/21 at 19:49:33:
I would guess that 8 …Bb7 9 e6 fe 10 Bd3 Nf8 is the way Black should go and that the GMs have reckoned he’s OK, but then how do you begin to evaluate this position?! After 11 Nge2 Nf6 12 f3 my engine comes up with the truly remarkable 12 …Kd7!?, possibly with ideas of …Qe8 and running the King to c8. Weird!

12...Kd7 sort of makes sense ultimately though as those (freeing e8 and getting king away) are important things.

For white the computer basically just wants to play slowly and improve pieces. Even the king. I guess a good line to illustrate would be:
1.e4 g6 2.d4 Bg7 3.Nc3 d6 4.Be3 a6 5.Qd2 b5 6.h4 h6 7.O-O-O Nd7 8.e5 Bb7 9.e6 fxe6 10.Bd3 Nf8 11.Nge2 Nf6 12.f3 Kd7 13.Kb1 Qe8 14.a3 Rb8 15.Rhf1 Kc8 16.g4 Qf7 17.Nf4 Bc6 (D)

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White can go either Na2 to go to b4, Ne4 or even Be4. Black has very little counterplay.

I suspect both sides have refinements though. E.g.
1.e4 g6 2.d4 Bg7 3.Nc3 d6 4.Be3 a6 5.Qd2 b5 6.h4 h6 7.O-O-O Nd7 8.e5 Bb7 9.e6 fxe6 10.Bd3 Nf8 11.Nge2 Nf6 12.f3
12.a3!?
12...Kd7 13.Kb1 Qe8 14.a3 Rb8 15.Rhf1
15.Nf4!?
15...Kc8 16.g4 N6d7!?
To activate the knight.
17.Ng3 Nf6 18.Nge2 N6d7 19.f4 h5 20.g5 Nb6 21.Nc1 Nc4 22.Qe2 Qc6 23.Ka2!?
23.Ne4 Nxe3 24.Qxe3 Qb6 still looks like a good positional grip for white but black has managed to exchange a piece at least.
23...Nxa3! 24.Kxa3 b4+ 25.Kxb4 Qb6+ 26.Ka3 Qa5+ 27.Na4 Bc6 28.b3 Qb4+ 29.Ka2 Bxa4 30.Qe1 Qxe1 31.Rfxe1
With a more simplified position.

Have a nice day.
  
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Re: 3 Nc3 d6 4 Be3 a6 5 Qd2 b5 6 0-0-0 Nd7 7 h4 h6!?
Reply #2 - 08/08/21 at 19:49:33
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Hi CbT,

Sorry to have been ‘absent’ for yonks and yonks! About time POW was a thing of the past over here …

I have to put my hand up and confess I never considered your 8 e5!? here, just because I haven’t seen it mentioned anywhere. But unlike me, you thought for yourself and came up with a really interesting suggestion!

I would guess that 8 …Bb7 9 e6 fe 10 Bd3 Nf8 is the way Black should go and that the GMs have reckoned he’s OK, but then how do you begin to evaluate this position?! After 11 Nge2 Nf6 12 f3 my engine comes up with the truly remarkable 12 …Kd7!?, possibly with ideas of …Qe8 and running the King to c8. Weird!

Thus far I think …h6 is always possible in response to h4, but I’ll try to make a ‘flow chart’ of what I reckon to be the crunchiest lines ‘post-Tiger’ as soon as I get time …
  
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Re: 3 Nc3 d6 4 Be3 a6 5 Qd2 b5 6 0-0-0 Nd7 7 h4 h6!?
Reply #1 - 05/05/21 at 00:15:28
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Hi.

Some experimental thought, but both 8.e5 and 8.Bd3 are interesting with this move order (or a 6.h4 one). They seem like untried ideas though. Maybe you even try to avoid the first (8.e5). E.g.

1.e4 d6 2.d4 g6 3.Nc3 Bg7 4.Be3 a6 5.Qd2 b5 6.h4 h6
6...Bb7 7.h5 Seems not good to allow.
6...Nf6 is a Pirc
6...h5!?
7.0-0-0
7.Bd3 Nd7 8.f4
8.0-0-0!? and if not moving the bishop to b7, then some other move needs to work like: 8...Nf6, 8...Rb8!? or even 8...c6
8...h5 9.Nf3 Nh6 10.O-O-O
Not having played Bb7 may work in black's favour black here e.g.
10...c6!? 11.f5!? gxf5 12.exf5 b4 13.Ne2!? Qa5 With some counterplay.
7...Nd7
7...Bb7 8.Bd3 Nd7 9.f4 c5
9...h5 10.Nf3 Nh6!? but here Bb7 has been played and this is not necessarily the best version.
10.dxc5 Nxc5
10...b4 11.Na4 Qa5 12.b3
12...Bc6 13.cxd6 Bxa4 14.bxa4 Qxa4 15.Kb1 Seems not that dangerous for white.
12...Nxc5 13.Bxc5 dxc5 14.e5 Is also not overly threatening for white
11.Bxc5 dxc5 12.e5 c4 13.Be4 Qxd2+ 14.Rxd2 Bxe4 15.Nxe4 h5 16.Nf3 Nh6
8.e5!? dxe5
8...Bb7 9.e6!? fxe6 10.Bd3 Nf8 11.Nge2 Nf6 12.f3 Looks like a good version of this type of position for white, but at the same time black is solid in the short term.
9.dxe5 Bxe5 10.h5 g5 11.f4 gxf4 12.Bxf4
12...Bb7 13.Bxe5 Nxe5 14.Qf4 Nd7 15.Nf3 transposes but with one extra move.
12...Bxf4 13.Qxf4 Bb7 14.Nf3 e5 15.Qf5!? Ne7 16.Qh3 (D) This has to be good compensation.

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As for the other more standard move sequences, they are very hard to get to grips with. Maybe I will analyse out (longer not to some absurd level) a couple of the best looking lines.

Have a nice day.
  
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3 Nc3 d6 4 Be3 a6 5 Qd2 b5 6 0-0-0 Nd7 7 h4 h6!?
04/21/21 at 09:58:04
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The ‘Pseudo-Dragon’ lines of the Modern Defence are, I think, hugely strategically complex and absolutely fascinating, whether Black goes for …h5 or …h6. The former may be the ‘main line’, but the latter has been widely endorsed and played, e.g. by Kamsky. As a sweeping generalisation it might be less wild than …h5, but either side can get blown off the board quickly if they don’t watch out …

White normally starts with 8 f3 (8 f4 being met with 8 …h5!) when after 8 …Bb7 White has various tries. Maybe the main line (if there is one) is 9 Nh3, when Black can play the direct 9 …Rc8, idea …c5, or the standard Knight manoeuvre 9 …Ngf6 10 Kb1 Nb6 11 a3 (normally thought necessary to prevent …b4) Nfd7, when Tiger has a long line in his book beginning 12 h5 g5 13 Nf2 Rc8 14 Ng4 c5.

On move nine White can go 9 g4 immediately, but then multiple responses have been suggested for Black: Tiger gives 9 …c5 and 9 …e6; 9…Rc8 has also been played/recommended; and Nemec on Chessable has recently recommended 9 …Ngf6 10 Kb1 Nb6 11 a3 Nfd7. Perhaps more critical is 9 h5 g5 10 Nge2!? (10 d5?! Ne5), when on ChessPublishing the game Nanu-Nevednichy is given; this continued 10 …Nb6 11 Ng3 e6, when 12 Bd3 is given as a bit better for White. But going back to move ten, when I first saw this position I thought, why not just 10 …c5? I can’t argue with GMs, but I notice this is also the choice of Stockfish 13, and looks to hold up (albeit on my still-to-be-replaced PC)?

Maybe Black’s basic strategies in all this boil down to two (a quick …c5 with or without …Rc8, or a quick …Nb6/…Ngf6/…Nfd7 intending …b4), but deciding which plan to implement when given all the different move orders is quite a thing! In this context the latest ChessPub update by Justin Tan has me perplexed. Annotating the game So-Nepo, which went 8 …Nb6 9 Bd3!? (another try!) Bb7 10 Nh3 e6 11 g4 Ne7, Tan suggests here 12 h5 g5 13 Kb1, teeing up for f2-f4, as a big advantage for White, and since he gives no other moves the implication (intended or otherwise) is that the whole …h6 system is under a cloud. But 10 …e6 isn’t forced, so I want to know what’s wrong with 10 …Ngf6, when, after 11 g4, both 11 …Nfd7 and 11…h5 have been successfully played. And secondly, after the ‘normal’ 8 …Bb7 (iso 8 …Nb6) 9 Nh3, Black still has 9 …Rc8 as given above (Tiger p. 170).

Thoughts?
  
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