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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Dragon 2 (Read 1089 times)
bragesjo
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Re: Dragon 2
Reply #20 - 06/10/21 at 08:56:44
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I can add one last thing. In two Correspondence chess games I can explain better the differences between engine types.

In one Correspondence Chess game Fat Fritz 2 saw a mate in 11 almost instantly while Dragon 2 did not see it proposing an other move that also would have won very easy but slower. But in one other Corr game Fat Fritz 2 was extremly slow(!) and thougt winning for me but did not see the move. Dragon 2 suggested an other move than Fat Fritz 2 and after I enterted the move Fat Fritz saw the strenth of the move evaluting as even better for my than its own suggestions.

Engines based an calculating long lines fast can spot forced mates or long tactical lines fast while other types of engines can discovered better positional moves.
  
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bragesjo
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Re: Dragon 2
Reply #19 - 05/25/21 at 07:33:16
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I can explain the text its mostly a joke. Once upon it time it said Sicilian Dragon.

Nimzo Indian is more like a start position rather than an opening. Both sides can coose many setups and can sub systems where both gets intesting play.

The joke is based an
1. Most players play 3 Nf3 3 g3 or 3a thus black need a tag Team partner
2. Most club player who opens 1 d4 play some sort of dpawn special
3.  Even if a club player allows Nimzo the most common move is Bd2.
4. In my Correspondence Chess Nimzo is even rarer most of my Nimzo games are in Quuensgambit Nimzo hybrid Ragozin or some Bogo Indian games where white playes 4 Nc3.

EDIT
Updated my profile to a better text
  
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cathexis
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Re: Dragon 2
Reply #18 - 05/24/21 at 21:41:13
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Since you believe, "Long live the Nimzo-Indian," have you ever tried running lines of it through Dragon 2 vs Stockfish? White's choices for move four can lead you deep into the rabbit hole whether you play white or black.
  
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bragesjo
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Re: Dragon 2
Reply #17 - 05/24/21 at 19:51:07
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I chatted a bit with a friend who has experience of Komodo and he said its based on with rather than speed and understanding rather than long likes like Stockfish. Probebly Dragon 2 used same approach.
  
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bragesjo
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Re: Dragon 2
Reply #16 - 05/24/21 at 17:51:10
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I am not an engine expert or engine developer but from what I have read there are several approaches to create engines.

Each and every engine (and clones) has unique way to store the board interal , an unique way to suggest candiate moves and unique way to evaluate the position.

Some engines undertands that a move is good based on evaluations at large depth. Some engines understands that a move is good by evaluating the current position by more parameters  thus trusting its own assesment more and som engine does a more broad search thus impossible to get high depth. Both appaches has strengths and weaknesses, if not looking to deep best move may be missed or looking to deep horizon effect can acour and missing good replyes on the way.

The different approaches leads to different strengt,  in very tactical position I would prefere a higher depth based engine while in imbalanced or more postional position maybee an other type.
« Last Edit: 05/24/21 at 18:52:48 by bragesjo »  
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cathexis
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Re: Dragon 2
Reply #15 - 05/24/21 at 12:22:59
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I want to ask a little more about what you mean by "more based on positional understanding"? I'm not trying to nitpick you, just understand better. I also understand that some of this may be more intuitive on your part. Mainly, do you yourself gain greater positional understanding from Dragon's moves? Or do you feel those moves reflect a greater positional understanding by Dragon? How do you tell the difference and what benefit do you gain from it?

I'm asking anyone who cares to reply.
  
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Re: Dragon 2
Reply #14 - 05/24/21 at 11:03:17
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I think that is mostly the gist of the idea.
  
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bragesjo
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Re: Dragon 2
Reply #13 - 05/23/21 at 13:55:40
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Since I never used Komodo before or Dragon either I became intested to see how it works so I bought Dragon 2 from developers directly. Not that I need it more of curiosety.

The engine seems to use a different approach than Stockfish. Stockfish strengh is reaching high depts fast while Dragon 2, and I assume Komodo,  the strengt is more based on positional understanding.
  
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cathexis
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Re: Dragon 2
Reply #12 - 05/21/21 at 11:51:10
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OK, thanks people!
  
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Re: Dragon 2
Reply #11 - 05/21/21 at 10:18:44
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I frequently use LcO and Stockfish to analyze, like Magnus says LcO is more understandable. But it is easy to use two engines concurrently.
  
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Re: Dragon 2
Reply #10 - 05/20/21 at 18:24:03
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cathexis wrote on 05/20/21 at 13:13:37:
Going slightly further off-topic,

What is the benefit of acquiring Komodo in the first place? I too, saw it for sale on CB. I have Fritz 17 paid-for and Stockfish 13. I use Stockfish 13 as default whether using Fritz, Hiarcs, or SCID. Since it is a reasonable assumption that no one here up to and including Super-GMs is going to beat Stockfish on full strength, how will it benefit your personal analysis use of engines to include, say Komodo or Houdini too?

For example; You have a book on the NID and you have some ideas of your own about lines in the Capablanca variation. You want to run both your ideas and the author's suggestions through the engine to move-check for possible blunders (or perhaps the most optimal path that combines the book with your own ideas). You've got Stockfish, why get another? I do get that engines don't see everything. But then again, none of your opponents is ever going to outplay Stockfish anyway. If you're an explorer in an unknown land and you need to cross a crocodile-infested stream, you can fell a tree the falls onto the other side and that will do. Or you can believe you shouldn't even try unless you can build a proper stone bridge first. One is provably stronger and better. The other does the job and gets you back to exploring. I hope you see the point. I'm not being snarky, just curious.


I often use Komodo to analyze my games, because I understand its evaluation better. SF often says I'm winning/losing after the first positional mistake in the game, which may be true at its level, but not at mine  Cool
  

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cathexis
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Re: Dragon 2
Reply #9 - 05/20/21 at 17:28:58
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I have another question but will move it to the proper forum. Thx!

EDIT: Ooops! Meant to say, start a new thread.
  
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bragesjo
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Re: Dragon 2
Reply #8 - 05/20/21 at 15:55:03
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Dragon 2 is on rating list ranked as nr 3 in blitz
https://ccrl.chessdom.com/ccrl/404/

Dragon 2 is also number 3 in a 40 moves in two min list.

Dragon 2 is however not in rapid list yet, Dragon 1 is listed as nr 3.

https://ccrl.chessdom.com/ccrl/4040/

  
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an ordinary chessplayer
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Re: Dragon 2
Reply #7 - 05/20/21 at 14:24:52
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Edited:
I see Bibs already answered.
You are correct, for blunder checking your own ideas any old engine will suffice. I prefer Stockfish 11 for that. For generating new ideas though, it does matter which engine you use. I find your explorer analogy confusing. Basically, if you know why you want a specific engine and know how to take advantage of its differences, then it's worth thinking about paying for it. If you don't know, then you might as well use the strongest free engine.
  
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bragesjo
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Re: Dragon 2
Reply #6 - 05/20/21 at 14:04:10
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Well the short answer is in normal cases there no extra point in buying or using extra engines if you have Stockfish 13.

Some engines can provide new ideas in old openings, but the ideas can be objectivly weaker than Stockfish suggestions but opponents may not have seened the new idea. Think of  the Wch Match where Karpov came up with a new move vs Korchnoi in Ruy Lopez and won since Korchnoi had not seen the new move but when they played later Karpov played the old move instead.

In Correspondence Chess is a bit different. Some engines are better than other in different middlegames positions and some are better in endgames (before tablebases positions). But there are little value to uses more than 2 engines. Its not even nesssesary to buy any engines since for example both Stockfish and Lc0 are free.

I have seen in Computer rating lists reports that Stockfish 13 does not win or draw every single game, no engines does that. Engine 1 can have higher rating than in Engine 2 but engine 2 can still win the individual games depening on type of position. However the better engine scores more total points  vs most engines thus has higher rating.
  
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