Latest Updates:
Page Index Toggle Pages: 1 2 [3] 4 
Topic Tools
Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) The Scandinavian for Club Players (Read 7422 times)
Sandman
Full Member
***
Offline



Posts: 121
Joined: 05/10/07
Gender: Male
Re: The Scandinavian for Club Players
Reply #23 - 06/25/21 at 23:30:20
Post Tools
Bibs wrote on 05/30/21 at 03:25:31:
I personally really like black at the bottom for black rep stuff.



I also prefer it this way. I like to have the side I’m “playing” on the bottom.
  

“All it takes is one bad day to reduce the sanest man alive to lunacy.
That's how far the world is from where I am.
Just one bad day.”
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MNb
God Member
*****
Offline


Rudolf Spielmann forever

Posts: 10621
Location: Moengo
Joined: 01/05/04
Gender: Male
Re: The Scandinavian for Club Players
Reply #22 - 06/16/21 at 11:39:50
Post Tools
The same in The Netherlands - I always has known it as the Scandinavische Verdediging. The same with Pachman, 1980's. Even Harman/Taulbut and Emms called their books The Scandinavian. I have seen The Centre Counter before, but only seldomly.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
GC Lichtenberg
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
bragesjo
God Member
*****
Offline


CCE at ICCF 2021

Posts: 1703
Location: Eskilstuna
Joined: 06/30/06
Gender: Male
Re: The Scandinavian for Club Players
Reply #21 - 06/16/21 at 07:43:10
Post Tools
About the name, in Sweden is been called Skandinavisk (Scandinavian) since forever since the defence was developed and analysed a lot by Swedes and other scandinavian players. But I know is its often called Centre Counter in english.
  
Back to top
WWW  
IP Logged
 
bragesjo
God Member
*****
Offline


CCE at ICCF 2021

Posts: 1703
Location: Eskilstuna
Joined: 06/30/06
Gender: Male
Re: The Scandinavian for Club Players
Reply #20 - 06/16/21 at 07:32:30
Post Tools
I have the book. The book shows typical plans for white to look out for in every sub chapter and shows ideas for black as well. Then there is a theory section. I bougt the book since I got bored of all c3 Sicilians in over the board games and almost very other games I played was other antis , some sharp and intresting and some other not.

I have never played this opening before so I have no idea how theory goes, a larger chapter is 1 e4 d5 2 exd5 Qxd5 3 Nc3 Qa5 4 d4 Sf6 5 Nf3 Bf5 that has several subchapters. I have not computer checked the line but for a human eye blacks position looks reasonable. ModernChess has an opening databas that also goes for Bf5 system so I assume its the new mainline.
  
Back to top
WWW  
IP Logged
 
MW
Full Member
***
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 247
Joined: 04/20/18
Gender: Male
Re: The Scandinavian for Club Players
Reply #19 - 06/15/21 at 21:44:40
Post Tools
Does anyone have this book and if so what do they think of it? I played this opening in my younger days (it was called The Centre Counter back then) with reasonable success at the club level...

I'm just looking for an opening that I can play in online blitz that doesn't result in endless 2nd move variants of the Sicilian or exchange French's....  1...e5 isn't much better, lets face it there is only so much of the slow Italian a man can take.

Thanks
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
an ordinary chessplayer
God Member
*****
Offline


I used to be not bad.

Posts: 1275
Location: Columbus, OH (USA)
Joined: 01/02/15
Re: The Scandinavian for Club Players
Reply #18 - 06/03/21 at 18:29:59
Post Tools
Glenn Snow wrote on 06/03/21 at 14:21:31:
The 2...Nf6 just seems refuted.

The contrarian in me suddenly wants to take up 2...Nf6.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Glenn Snow
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 1719
Location: Franklin
Joined: 09/27/03
Gender: Male
Re: The Scandinavian for Club Players
Reply #17 - 06/03/21 at 14:21:31
Post Tools
The Scandinavian is a "decent opening"?  I think that remains to be seen.  I rather agree with Topnotch that all three major variations are under a cloud.  Perhaps this book has rehabilitated the 3...Qa5 variation.  The 2...Nf6 just seems refuted.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Dink Heckler
God Member
*****
Offline


Love-Forty

Posts: 808
Joined: 02/01/07
Gender: Male
Re: The Scandinavian for Club Players
Reply #16 - 05/31/21 at 08:47:04
Post Tools
I don't have a problem with the orientation of diagrams per se. My gripe is that books that make the conscious choice to orientate Black South-North are statistically likely to be even less objective than usual regarding Black's prospects  Smiley
  

'Am I any good at tactics?'
'Computer says No!'
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
an ordinary chessplayer
God Member
*****
Offline


I used to be not bad.

Posts: 1275
Location: Columbus, OH (USA)
Joined: 01/02/15
Re: The Scandinavian for Club Players
Reply #15 - 05/30/21 at 05:22:11
Post Tools
Re: Black on the bottom on diagrams.

It doesn't bother me either way, and that's why I *don't* flip the diagrams in software. New game : whatever the software decides is at bottom is fine for me. Usually it's white on bottom, why should I change it? I can play a whole game as black versus the engine with my side at the top. It's still chess. A lot of puzzle software has black on the bottom for black to move puzzles. I don't flip those either. Fun fact: sometimes I accidentally flip the diagram, and when that happens I usually just leave it flipped. "Oops, guess I just found the flip button." There are two times it matters to me:  (1) When I'm following a book, I want the software diagrams to match the book diagrams. (2) When I'm playing blindfold against the engine ("blindfold mode" but technically not blindfold since the board is visible) then I want my side at the bottom, because that's how I'm visualizing it.

People who care are like the people who used to insist that books and magazines needed to be in English Descriptive Notation for a million "reasons" that all amounted to "I like it better". Okay cool, you like it better is actually a valid reason, but one person one vote. Tradition is another possible reason. But tradition is also used to justify nonsense that should have been changed a long time ago. So maybe tradition should only be used as a tie-breaker argument. As an aside, I will note that sometimes I purchase black repertoire products for openings I only play from the white side. What do the black-on-bottom folks think of that scenario?
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Bibs
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 2264
Joined: 10/24/06
Re: The Scandinavian for Club Players
Reply #14 - 05/30/21 at 03:25:31
Post Tools
I personally really like black at the bottom for black rep stuff. Just baffles me that this is not normal. Do people insist on pulling up a chair and sitting next to the white guy and moving from there? Then, looking from black's POV seems helpful and normal here.

How do people use CB, or play online? What POV? I always flip.

(Sorry, genuinely curious. But that does appear to digress).

I think the Scandi (and it's partner-in-outlook the Alekhine) are both perfectly reasonable openings to choose, for most players, practically speaking.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
an ordinary chessplayer
God Member
*****
Offline


I used to be not bad.

Posts: 1275
Location: Columbus, OH (USA)
Joined: 01/02/15
Re: The Scandinavian for Club Players
Reply #13 - 05/29/21 at 09:39:00
Post Tools
No comment on diagrams with black-on-bottom. No comment on Illingworth's website design choices.
Quote:
What makes the Scandinavian so easy to learn and master, and so effective against club players and masters?
  1. You force a specific type of position on the board, which the opponent can't effectively avoid.
  2. Your first 10-15 moves are generally the same (or similar) setups, with familiar middlegame and endgame plans.
  3. You’ll often gain a time advantage early in the game. You can play standard ideas, relying on your greater experience and understanding of the position. Your opponent has to make most of the tough decisions.
  4. You can understand the opening at a Grandmaster level relatively quickly, and still be better prepared than your opponents. By playing the Scandinavian, your opponent will be less comfortable than you on your ‘home’ territory.

Isn't that really like one-and-a-half reasons rather than four? You play the same moves because it's the same structure, and you have "more experience" because you are always playing the same structure, et cetera, et cetera. The Scandinavian is a decent opening, but it can be oversold. Each of Illingworth's inter-dependent points also has a counterpoint.
  1. Playing the same structure in every game kills the imagination. Larsen said that about the Benko Gambit (or was it the Stonewall?), and I feel the same applies to the Scandinavian.
  2. If you are always playing the same first 10-15 moves, you become very predictable. The Scandinavian doesn't work so well if you keep repeating it against the same opponent.
  3. As for getting a time (clock) advantage -- He who lives by the sword, dies by the sword. A really good way to die horribly in the 3...Qa5 Scandinavian is to answer some goofy white "inaccuracy" with a quick, routine, "pre-programmed" move. Yes, I lost that way once with black. Then I saw the value, and have won that way at least a couple of times with white.
  4. If black can understand the opening at GM level quickly, then so can white. The reason whites don't prepare well against it is because they don't face it often. If you make it your main defense, you change that dynamic. Now they *will* prepare. And here is where the nature of the opening will turn against black, because there aren't many opportunities for black to vary (see point #2). When white starts playing GM-type moves, there may not be a decent way to avoid their preparation.

I looked at the modern-chess repertoire linked by TopNotch, and it seems incredibly narrow. At least Illingworth offers alternatives for black (3...Qd6, 3...Qd8, 2...Nf6).

Despite those reservations about the Scandinavian, I still feel it's valid as a second- or third-string opening. I have considered taking it up again, this time not as a sharp Smerdon-style rabbit-basher, but more as an Arkell-style slow-drip: I'm not winning, but that doesn't mean I'm agreeing to a draw. Ask me again at move 120 and we'll see.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Dink Heckler
God Member
*****
Offline


Love-Forty

Posts: 808
Joined: 02/01/07
Gender: Male
Re: The Scandinavian for Club Players
Reply #12 - 05/29/21 at 08:04:23
Post Tools
I'm incapable of taking a chess book seriously where the diagrams have Black playing South to North (I seem to recall, perhaps incorrectly, that the 'Black is OK' series did this, but I'll give them a pass for quirky iconoclasm).

As for that website, yes indeed; reminds me of the interwebs circa 1995, and no-one wants to be reminded of that.
  

'Am I any good at tactics?'
'Computer says No!'
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Bibs
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 2264
Joined: 10/24/06
Re: The Scandinavian for Club Players
Reply #11 - 05/29/21 at 01:23:56
Post Tools
Illingworth was a very good writer here. Put lots of effort in and he provided interesting detail. Was reliably good reading each month in the QG section. Respect, and good luck to the fella based on that.

But that website and that advertising is atrocious. Car crash design and thinking. Ugh.

  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
TopNotch
God Member
*****
Offline


I only look 1 move ahead,
but its always the best

Posts: 2145
Joined: 01/04/03
Gender: Male
Re: The Scandinavian for Club Players
Reply #10 - 05/28/21 at 18:30:54
Post Tools
  

The man who tries to do something and fails is infinitely better than he who tries to do nothing and succeeds - Lloyd Jones Smiley
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
RoleyPoley
God Member
*****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 696
Location: London
Joined: 12/29/13
Gender: Male
Re: The Scandinavian for Club Players
Reply #9 - 05/28/21 at 14:55:31
Post Tools
I'm looking forward to having a closer look at this book
  

"As Mikhail Tal would say ' Let's have a bit of hooliganism! '"

Victor Bologan.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Page Index Toggle Pages: 1 2 [3] 4 
Topic Tools
Bookmarks: del.icio.us Digg Facebook Google Google+ Linked in reddit StumbleUpon Twitter Yahoo