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Normal Topic Orthodoxy justified (Read 520 times)
MartinC
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Re: Orthodoxy justified
Reply #7 - 06/03/21 at 08:27:27
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The trick with the new engines is to see where they suggest sensible, human looking, moves that aren't already common theory.

Can find some quite interesting ideas that way.

That they mostly reproduce classical theory is a useful check that they aren't just producing gibberish Smiley
  
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Re: Orthodoxy justified
Reply #6 - 06/03/21 at 04:56:12
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Deleting is probably not necessary. I think Bibs meant the King's Indian section is for discussion of opening theory. Your topic would be suitable for the General Chess section or the Chess and Computers section. Maybe it could be moved. I think that would require moderator intervention.

I have to say, the way you are using an engine sounds like pure research, and doesn't interest me at all. But carry on, maybe someone else will be interested.
  
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Re: Orthodoxy justified
Reply #5 - 06/03/21 at 04:13:28
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'Esoteric'? Hardly. 'Abstract'? Based on statistical findings, indeed. Sometimes, 'abstract' findings become the building blocks of an opening theory. Surely at the very least, what has been said above can bring about a special emphasis upon one particular line out of a considerable vast repertoire; orthodox variation. Once you increase the data it is entirely possible that a theme arises out of a mere collection of interesting 'coincidences'.
Or perhaps it holds no merit; there's always that possibility and I welcome that discussion. And this what this is, a mere discussion, no concrete line suggestions here. As we both agreed, opening evaluations are perilous. Nevertheless, I do completely understand if this sub-forum concerns itself with specific line suggestion, you have my approval of locking/delete this thread as you please (I saw no delete option).

  
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Bibs
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Re: Orthodoxy justified
Reply #4 - 06/03/21 at 00:19:02
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It should be noted that this is an openings theory site.

Useful to be concrete rather than esoteric and abstract here.

Opening theory ideas, suggestions?


  
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Re: Orthodoxy justified
Reply #3 - 06/02/21 at 21:06:40
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tony37 wrote on 06/02/21 at 13:46:06:
Much more interesting is what happens when you keep choosing the time-tested book moves for black, and let Stockfish play white. At move 7 the opening has barely started.


You are quite right,that would be interesting yes....but we are moving into a different area; what I do to satisfy that question is to create polyglot opening books from kings indian-exclusive databases, then run stockfish13 engine tournaments whereby one is locked in with the opening book and one is free to do as it pleases. Any conclusions are derived only after 100+ games.   Having said that, TCEC (Top Chess Engine Championship)also has in its opening books for engines both kings indian defence and attack..matter of fact, the tournament that runs currently uses them quite regularly. So a collection of those games  would partly answer what you are addressing here.

Bibs wrote on 06/02/21 at 13:41:04:
Welcome!

To be fair though, strong as engines are, it's not obvious that running engines at whatever depth will generate all that much usable new insight in the first few moves. 

But yes, kinda interesting to see what the NNUEs 'decide' to play after a few million walks around any particular park.


Thank you for the welcome. And yes, this is exactly what i find interesting; when independent engine computation arrives on a previously held human theory that was derived through the stages of history, trial and error. Now it may happen all the time or it may not , but when it does to my favourite opening...i just liked to point that out  Cool

This also explains why the line is so short; this is what happens when you let the engine lead the way after the 13th ply.

ibb.co/1qKJTMq is a picture of the situation in excel ->The first six top options for move 7.5 and onward are displayed. Numbers colourfully attached to engine moves are  ordered in the following way; evaluation(99.1--100% unless max duration ),depth and lastly at the bottom row is duration of computation (minutes,max=21). 

Conventional lines of the king's indian are identified with specific opponent moves. They are inseparable..once you start entering different values, you are deviating away from theory. Which does not serve the purpose here; to find coincidences between engine computation and historic human theory.. if you have any examples do share.





  
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Re: Orthodoxy justified
Reply #2 - 06/02/21 at 13:46:06
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Much more interesting is what happens when you keep choosing the time-tested book moves for black, and let Stockfish play white. At move 7 the opening has barely started.
  
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Re: Orthodoxy justified
Reply #1 - 06/02/21 at 13:41:04
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Welcome!

To be fair though, strong as engines are, it's not obvious that running engines at whatever depth will generate all that much usable new insight in the first few moves. 

But yes, kinda interesting to see what the NNUEs 'decide' to play after a few million walks around any particular park.
  
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Orthodoxy justified
06/02/21 at 11:19:24
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I run stockdish 13 against the kings Indian defence for the first 7 moves, manually choosing the black moves while allowing white an average of 6 minutes with 30+ depth to respond.

1. d4 Nf6 2.Nf3      g6 3.c4 Bg7  4.Nc3 O-O 5.e4 d6   6.Be2 e5 7.O-O

By ply 13, the position coincides with E94 King's Indian, orthodox variation although via a different route.

1. d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6  3.Nc3 Bg7 4.e4 d6   5.Nf3 O-O 6.Be2 e5 7.O-O

Engine evaluations at openings are perilous.. plus engines really like space occupation so the KID is looked unfavorable from the get go. The eval up to this point is 0.72 while the principal evaluation for the next move for black is 0.59 with 7...a5 (i would classify 0.72 for an engine vs engine situation to be in a somewhat significant area but for a human I would say it is found in a low disequilibrium state). However, the focus of this was not to scrutinize the evaluation (esp. in the opening moves) but to see where would the engine's optimum choices lead against the King's Indian.

The historic event that ignited much of kings Indian defence development (the soviets Bronstein, Boleslavsky to name a few) was the Zurich 1953 candidates tournament. In fact, there are two games that reached this position (Smyslov vs Geller and Gligoric vs Geller).I find it quite appealing that the historic pre-engine theory development of the orhtodox variation is also reached by today's fiercest engine out there.
  
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