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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Lifetime Repertoires: Dragon Sicilian (Read 3049 times)
RoleyPoley
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Re: Lifetime Repertoires: Dragon Sicilian
Reply #18 - 11/21/21 at 14:57:35
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an ordinary chessplayer wrote on 07/04/21 at 09:27:04:
Your counter-arguments are worth considering, but consider also this scenario: Tomorrow Giri starts playing the Dragon against other top players. Would this new fact increase your confidence in the chessable repertoire, decrease your confidence, or make no difference?


Giri is playing the Dragon against Shirov at the European Team Championships today. Came out of a chameleon/ Accelerated Dragon move order.

Edit: drawn in 35 moves. Giri having slightly more time left on the clock. I think the computer gauge on the chess 24 site had it level throughout most if not all of the game.
« Last Edit: 11/21/21 at 17:33:43 by RoleyPoley »  

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XChess1971
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Re: Lifetime Repertoires: Dragon Sicilian
Reply #17 - 09/12/21 at 03:22:27
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XChess1971 wrote on 07/04/21 at 17:42:14:
One last thing I wanted to mention is that you still need to study the Soltis after 9.Bc4 Bd7 10.h4 h5 11.0-0-0 Rc8 12.Bb3 Ne5 by transposition. And here 13.Kb1 Nc4 is the recommended move. But 13...Re8 would take you back to the 12.Kb1 line (9.Bc4 Bd7 10.0-0-0 Rc8 11.Bb3 Ne5 12.Kb1 Re8 13.h4 h5)

Happy 4 of July to all Americans!


Knock knock!
Good evening everybody at least for the ones on EST time in the US.

I wanted to mention something I was suspecting. Recently a game between Stockfish 14 vs Lc0, TCEC Season 21 was uploaded to youtube. On the Variation 12.Kb1 Re8 white unleashed 13.h3 (a move that I already knew. The point is to hold back the h-pawn and be ready for a possible f4 as g4 is covered.) in that game black continued with 13...Qc7 and after 14.Bh6 Bh8 white played 15.h4 (as there is no longer 15...h5 to make it harder for white). After 15...Nc4 16.Qd3 Ne5 17.Qf1 Nc4 18.Bc1 Qc5 19.g4! white simply had a better game.

I myself had analyzed this position and concluded that maybe 13...Nc4 could be a better option. After 14.Bxc4 Rxc4 15.Qd3 Rc8 16.g4 looks better. But 15...Qc8 16.g4 Rxc3 17.Qxc3 Qxc3 18.bxc3 Rc8 19.Nb3 where after 19...Bb5 (19...Rxc3 20.Rhe1 h5 21.Rd3 Rc8 22.Bd4 Bc6 23.e5 dxe5 24.Bxe5 white looks better) 20.Rhe1 Nd7 black has some chances defending it.
Other possible options are 13.a3, 13.Rhe1, 13.Rhg1 and 13.g4

Below the PGN. Food for thought!!!


[Event "TCEC Season 21 - Viewer Submitted Openings Bonus 21"]
[Site "https://lichess.org/cWlvSxBJ"]
[Date "2021.08.31"]
[Round "3.10"]
[White "Stockfish 14_202108220915"]
[Black "LCZero 0.28_69722-vf20"]
[Result "1-0"]
[WhiteElo "3644"]
[BlackElo "3620"]
[Variant "Standard"]
[TimeControl "2700+5"]
[ECO "B78"]
[Opening "Sicilian Defense: Dragon Variation, Yugoslav Attack, Old Line"]
[Termination "Normal"]
[Annotator "lichess.org"]

1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nc3 g6 6. Be3 Bg7 7. f3 O-O 8. Qd2 Nc6 9. Bc4 Bd7 10. O-O-O Rc8 { B78 Sicilian Defense: Dragon Variation, Yugoslav Attack, Old Line } 11. Bb3 Ne5 12. Kb1 Re8 13. h3 Qc7 14. Bh6 Bh8 15. h4 Nc4 16. Qd3 Ne5 17. Qf1 Nc4 18. Bc1 Qc5 19. g4 Nxg4 20. h5 Bxd4 21. hxg6 Nf6 22. Ne2 Be3 23. gxh7+ Kh8 24. Bxc4 Bxc1 25. Rxc1 Qxc4 26. Qg2 Rc5? { (0.76 → 2.12) Mistake. Bg4 was best. } (26... Bg4 27. Rhg1) 27. b3 Qb5 28. Rhg1 Bg4 29. Nd4 Qb4 30. Rcd1 Rg5 31. fxg4 Qc3 32. Nf5 Nd7?! { (2.18 → 2.91) Inaccuracy. a5 was best. } (32... a5 33. a4) 33. Qf2 f6 34. e5 Nxe5 35. Nxe7 Nxg4 36. Rxg4 Rxg4 37. Qf5 Rxe7 38. Qxg4 Rg7 39. Qf4 Qe5 40. Qf2 Kxh7 41. Qxa7 f5 42. Qb8 Qe7 43. a4 Rg6 44. Qc8 Qf7 45. Qd8 Rf6 46. Rh1+ Rh6 47. Re1 Re6 48. Qh4+ Rh6 49. Qg5 Rg6 50. Rh1+ Kg7 51. Qh4 Qe8 52. Qh7+ Kf6 53. Qxb7 Qe4 54. Qh7 f4 55. Qh8+ Kf5 56. Qh3+ Kf6 57. a5 Rg3 58. Qh8+ Kf7 59. Rh7+ Ke6 60. Qc8+ Kd5 61. Qb7+ Kd4 62. Qa7+ Kd5 63. Qa8+ Kd4 64. Qa7+ Kd5 65. Qb7+ Kd4 66. Qb6+ Kd5 67. Qb5+ Kd4 68. Qb6+ Kd5 69. Rh5+ Ke6 70. Rh6+ Rg6 71. Rxg6+ Qxg6 72. a6 Qe4 73. a7 f3 74. Qd8 f2 75. Qe8+ Kf6 76. Qxe4 f1=Q+ 77. Kb2 Kf7?! { (73.24 → Mate in 7) Checkmate is now unavoidable. Qa6 was best. } (77... Qa6 78. a8=R Qxa8 79. Qxa8 Ke5 80. c4 Kf6 81. Qf8+ Ke6 82. Qe8+ Kf6 83. Qd7 Ke5 84. Qe7+) 78. Qh7+ Ke6 79. a8=Q Qf6+ 80. Ka2 Qh8 81. Qhe4+ Kd7 82. Qa7+ Kd8 83. Qea8# { White wins by checkmate. } 1-0

  
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Re: Lifetime Repertoires: Dragon Sicilian
Reply #16 - 07/05/21 at 10:11:12
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Thanks!! Vive l'Amerique!
  
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XChess1971
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Re: Lifetime Repertoires: Dragon Sicilian
Reply #15 - 07/04/21 at 17:42:14
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One last thing I wanted to mention is that you still need to study the Soltis after 9.Bc4 Bd7 10.h4 h5 11.0-0-0 Rc8 12.Bb3 Ne5 by transposition. And here 13.Kb1 Nc4 is the recommended move. But 13...Re8 would take you back to the 12.Kb1 line (9.Bc4 Bd7 10.0-0-0 Rc8 11.Bb3 Ne5 12.Kb1 Re8 13.h4 h5)

Happy 4 of July to all Americans!
  
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XChess1971
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Re: Lifetime Repertoires: Dragon Sicilian
Reply #14 - 07/04/21 at 17:26:09
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doefmat wrote on 07/04/21 at 13:35:10:
XChess1971 wrote on 07/04/21 at 12:45:30:
doefmat wrote on 07/04/21 at 07:18:59:
That's a weird argument. In the past, a lot of paper opening books were also written by players who don't play the opening themselves but are just very good analysts. In some cases, they worked as a second for a very strong player and researched the opening. Quality Chess also does this, for example with the Petroff book from Dhopade.


Guess what my friend. I'm in this forum since 2004. I have 35 years of experience with the Dragon. I have posted lines, ideas and work that I have done here. Even better free of charge. But your argument that my comment on Giri is weird sounds offside. This is not about being the best theoretician in the world or a top ten. They are human-beings and can make mistakes too. Even Carlsen had a hard time with the Dragon at some point of time where he won and lost games. I myself lost a corr, game following a move suggested by no other than Kasparov. Why don't you go ask Giru what about 15.g4 and give us an answer?


9.0-0-0 d5 10.exd5 Nxd5 11.Nxc6 bxc6 12.Bd4 e5 13.Bc5 Re8 14.Ne4 Qc7 15.g4 is in the course. The text says 'Logical, stopping f5, but Black has a good version of things, as after 15... Be6 we have a theoretical position without the inclusion of h4 and h6. White will need to go h4 anyway, but we will no longer have to lose time on h6.' With some lines.


I guess you are right on that part I overlooked 15.g4 Be6! 16.h4 Nf6 (16...h6 is no longer needed) 17.g5 Nxe4 18.fxe4 Rad8 19.Bd3 Bf8!. Instead of 15.g4 the main move is 15.h4 f5 (15...Rd8 is the old move where black got in trouble according to Vigorito in the game A.Cabrera-A.Gomez Rebollo, Burguillos 2009) 16.Nd6 Rd8 17.Nxc8 Raxc8 18.h5 Nb6 19.Qe3 Rxd1+ 20.Kxd1 Qf7 21.hxg6 hxg6 22.Qb3 Rd8+ 23.Kc1 Qxb3 24.axb3 Bf8 25.Bf2 Be7 and later was a draw in the game Holec, M - Eschert, U, ICCF email 2011.

I wanna thank an ordinary chessplayer and doefmat for the clarification. But with my age I started to overlook. I guess. too many Dragon games.
« Last Edit: 07/04/21 at 20:21:36 by XChess1971 »  
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Re: Lifetime Repertoires: Dragon Sicilian
Reply #13 - 07/04/21 at 13:35:10
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XChess1971 wrote on 07/04/21 at 12:45:30:
doefmat wrote on 07/04/21 at 07:18:59:
That's a weird argument. In the past, a lot of paper opening books were also written by players who don't play the opening themselves but are just very good analysts. In some cases, they worked as a second for a very strong player and researched the opening. Quality Chess also does this, for example with the Petroff book from Dhopade.


Guess what my friend. I'm in this forum since 2004. I have 35 years of experience with the Dragon. I have posted lines, ideas and work that I have done here. Even better free of charge. But your argument that my comment on Giri is weird sounds offside. This is not about being the best theoretician in the world or a top ten. They are human-beings and can make mistakes too. Even Carlsen had a hard time with the Dragon at some point of time where he won and lost games. I myself lost a corr, game following a move suggested by no other than Kasparov. Why don't you go ask Giru what about 15.g4 and give us an answer?


9.0-0-0 d5 10.exd5 Nxd5 11.Nxc6 bxc6 12.Bd4 e5 13.Bc5 Re8 14.Ne4 Qc7 15.g4 is in the course. The text says 'Logical, stopping f5, but Black has a good version of things, as after 15... Be6 we have a theoretical position without the inclusion of h4 and h6. White will need to go h4 anyway, but we will no longer have to lose time on h6.' With some lines.
  

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XChess1971
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Re: Lifetime Repertoires: Dragon Sicilian
Reply #12 - 07/04/21 at 12:45:30
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doefmat wrote on 07/04/21 at 07:18:59:
That's a weird argument. In the past, a lot of paper opening books were also written by players who don't play the opening themselves but are just very good analysts. In some cases, they worked as a second for a very strong player and researched the opening. Quality Chess also does this, for example with the Petroff book from Dhopade.


Guess what my friend. I'm in this forum since 2004. I have 35 years of experience with the Dragon. I have posted lines, ideas and work that I have done here. Even better free of charge. But your argument that my comment on Giri is weird sounds offside. This is not about being the best theoretician in the world or a top ten. They are human-beings and can make mistakes too. Even Carlsen had a hard time with the Dragon at some point of time where he won and lost games. I myself lost a corr, game following a move suggested by no other than Kasparov. Why don't you go ask Giri what about 15.g4 and give us an answer?
« Last Edit: 07/04/21 at 16:24:06 by MNb »  
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Re: Lifetime Repertoires: Dragon Sicilian
Reply #11 - 07/04/21 at 09:27:04
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doefmat wrote on 07/04/21 at 07:18:59:
XChess1971 wrote on 07/03/21 at 04:50:36:
[quote author=5A6B647E7F0A0 link=1623060568/7#7 date=1623099994]G

I barely saw Giri's course. I wouldn't trust it.
I do not recall to have seen Giri playing one single Dragon game. So you need to be careful with his material.


That's a weird argument. In the past, a lot of paper opening books were also written by players who don't play the opening themselves but are just very good analysts. In some cases, they worked as a second for a very strong player and researched the opening. Quality Chess also does this, for example with the Petroff book from Dhopade.

Next to that, Giri is probably is the biggest opening expert/nerd in the world right now. He is on top of the theory all day every day. There is a fun interview on the Perpetual Chess Podcast with Erwin L'Ami who works with Giri where they talk about this.

I think you can trust almost all top 10 players if they research an opening. It's what they do.

I didn't find the argument weird. Your counter-arguments are worth considering, but consider also this scenario: Tomorrow Giri starts playing the Dragon against other top players. Would this new fact increase your confidence in the chessable repertoire, decrease your confidence, or make no difference?

A suspicious mind, verging on paranoia, is a positive trait for a chessplayer. The reason why a Dragon player might be suspicious that some blithe Dragon analysis will not hold up in practice is because they have seen it before. I am sure Giri knows a lot, and is a good analyst. What trips up an author in an opening they don't play is the lines they don't know and haven't analysed. In a sharp opening such as the Dragon, you want the author to be a fellow practitioner because they will have an eye for alternatives that need checking. There is also the classification of opening problems into those which can be figured out at the board, and those which can't. Here again, the practitioner of an opening is much more likely to know which is which.
  
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Re: Lifetime Repertoires: Dragon Sicilian
Reply #10 - 07/04/21 at 07:18:59
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XChess1971 wrote on 07/03/21 at 04:50:36:
[quote author=5A6B647E7F0A0 link=1623060568/7#7 date=1623099994]G

I barely saw Giri's course. I wouldn't trust it.
I do not recall to have seen Giri playing one single Dragon game. So you need to be careful with his material.


That's a weird argument. In the past, a lot of paper opening books were also written by players who don't play the opening themselves but are just very good analysts. In some cases, they worked as a second for a very strong player and researched the opening. Quality Chess also does this, for example with the Petroff book from Dhopade.

Next to that, Giri is probably is the biggest opening expert/nerd in the world right now. He is on top of the theory all day every day. There is a fun interview on the Perpetual Chess Podcast with Erwin L'Ami who works with Giri where they talk about this.

I think you can trust almost all top 10 players if they research an opening. It's what they do.
  

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Re: Lifetime Repertoires: Dragon Sicilian
Reply #9 - 07/03/21 at 04:50:36
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Quote:
Giri thinks 9.Bc4 Bd7 10.0-0-0 Rc8 11.Bb3 Ne5 12.Kb1! is just better for white so 11...Nxd4 is mandatory, but rather than learn all the Soltis stuff as well (due to 10.h4 h5 move order) it is better to just play Nxd4 earlier.

For the Kaufman line, Giri basically follows it to the end and says black is fine.  Kaufman was claiming +0.14 of an advantage so I would say that is OK...


I have been putting some dedication to the line with 9.Bc4 Bd7 10.0-0-0 Rc8 11.Bb3 Ne5 12.Kb1 and 12...Re8 seems to hold it. But it is super complicated and you have to be ready to play variations such as 13.h4 h5 14.g4 hxg4 15.h5 Nxh5 16.Bh6 Kh7 17.Bxg7 Kxg7 18.fxg5 Nxg4 19.Nf5+ Bxf5 20.exf5 Rh8 21.fxg6 Nxg6 and here one of the lines goes 22.Nd5 Nf6!23.Rxh8 Qxh8 24.Qg2 Qd8! 25.Nf4 Qe8 26.Rg1 Qc6 27.Ne6+ Kg8 28.Qg3 d5 29.Nf4 Qd6!

Also there is a deviation with 16.Rdg1 Qa5 where after 17.fxg4 Bxg4 18.Rh4 Rxc3 19.bxc3 Nf6 20.Bh6 Nxe4 21.Qe3 Nxc3+ 22.Ka1 Bf6 23.Rhxg4 Nxg4 24.Bxf7+ Kh8 25.Qh3 Qh5 26.Qxc3 Nxh6 27.Bxe8 Qc5 28.Qxc5 dxc5 where with precise play black gets a draw.
Here 17.Bh6 Bf6 18.fxg4 Bxg4 19.Bg5 Bg7 20.Rh4 Rc4! seems to do the trick! Alternatively 20...Rc5 could be an option. But I didn't study it yet.

On 14.Bh6 Nc4! 15.Bxc4 Rxc4 16.Bxg7 Kxg7 17.Qe3 Qb6! seems to hold well after 18.Rd3 Rec8 19.Nd5 Nxd5 20.exd5 R4c5 21.Qe4 Qc7 22.Rc1 Re8 23.a3 e5! 24.dxe6 Bxe6 25.b3 b5 with equality. In this variation 17.Nd5 e5 18.Nxf6 Qxf6 19.Nb3! Be6! 20.Qxd6 Rec8 21.c3 R4c6 with compensation due to the bad knight and the activity of the black pieces.

I barely saw Giri's course. I wouldn't trust it. On 9.0-0-0 d5 10.exd5 Nxd5 11.Nxc6 bxc6 12.Bd4 e5 13.Bc5 Re8 14.Ne4 Qc7 he talks about 15.h4 f5. But what about 15.g4?
I do not recall to have seen Giri playing one single Dragon game. So you need to be careful with his material.
« Last Edit: 07/03/21 at 17:47:02 by XChess1971 »  
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Re: Lifetime Repertoires: Dragon Sicilian
Reply #8 - 06/07/21 at 21:14:02
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I do remember Mednis's annotations of Ljubojevic - Karpov. But it wasn't just Ljubojevic. In Karolyi (2007) Anatoly Karpov: Endgame Virtuoso, he gives seven games in the index under "Opposite-coloured bishops", and of course the Ljubojevic game is one of them. Admittedly Karolyi's examples don't demonstrate any consistent touch, but I seem to recall Mednis giving more/better examples. Maybe it was in Practical Bishop Endings, but I no longer have that book. Or maybe it was in his column The Practical Endgame, which appeared in multiple places. There was some overlap with his books.

Karolyi:
  
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Re: Lifetime Repertoires: Dragon Sicilian
Reply #7 - 06/07/21 at 21:06:34
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kylemeister wrote on 06/07/21 at 20:00:04:
an ordinary chessplayer wrote on 06/07/21 at 18:55:52:
Karpov in his heyday would have made it seem almost hopeless for black. Smiley

I guess you might be thinking of a game of his against Ljubojevic (Milan 1975), a case of (as Edmar Mednis wrote in Chess Life & Review) a 2620 player losing a dead-drawn ending.

gewgaw wrote on 06/07/21 at 19:15:44:
Kruppa - Tiviakov, 1991:

By the way, Tivi in his B75-76 monograph from the '90s thought White's final move was "?" and gave 27. g4 g5 28. Be4 +=.


Kruppa-Tiviakov, 1991 is basically given although he stops short of the end. 14.Ne4 is where the original analysis starts.

A bit later comment on that opposite coloured bishops endgame was "And this position is of course a draw, although the computer rightly points out that Black still has to be precise. Some key lines:"  with some analysis to move 35-40.  The indication is that the current computers are able to analyse the position to a draw.  How easy it is to hold OTB is another matter, but it doesn't look impossible to me at first glance.

gewgaw wrote on 06/07/21 at 19:15:44:
@Pantu, as you're a quite strong and experienced player, do you think Giri's chessable bibles are so some extend the last word of these openings (dragon, najdorf), how much room is left to discover something new?


I'm not sure I'm really qualified but I would say they are far from final.  I believe that Giri has both deviated from his Najdorf course and beaten players who played his recommendations against him as white.  These are interesting new lines generated by a top playing pushing the current strongest engines on strong hardware, I'm sure in 5-10 years there will be some different ideas. Chess is not yet dead.

bragesjo wrote on 06/07/21 at 19:26:59:
Lifetime repertoar and in Dragon looks like an odd combo but since Bc4 recommendation is a side line it might work.

About 2 Nc3 g6 there are some lines you must know after 3 d4. For example Kaufmanns book went for something that looks like a standard  yugoslav attack but with the Knight at e2 instead of d4 thus all theory are gone.


Giri thinks 9.Bc4 Bd7 10.0-0-0 Rc8 11.Bb3 Ne5 12.Kb1! is just better for white so 11...Nxd4 is mandatory, but rather than learn all the Soltis stuff as well (due to 10.h4 h5 move order) it is better to just play Nxd4 earlier.

For the Kaufman line, Giri basically follows it to the end and says black is fine.  Kaufman was claiming +0.14 of an advantage so I would say that is OK...
  
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Re: Lifetime Repertoires: Dragon Sicilian
Reply #6 - 06/07/21 at 20:00:04
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an ordinary chessplayer wrote on 06/07/21 at 18:55:52:
Karpov in his heyday would have made it seem almost hopeless for black. Smiley

I guess you might be thinking of a game of his against Ljubojevic (Milan 1975), a case of (as Edmar Mednis wrote in Chess Life & Review) a 2620 player losing a dead-drawn ending.

gewgaw wrote on 06/07/21 at 19:15:44:
Kruppa - Tiviakov, 1991:

By the way, Tivi in his B75-76 monograph from the '90s thought White's final move was "?" and gave 27. g4 g5 28. Be4 +=.
  
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Re: Lifetime Repertoires: Dragon Sicilian
Reply #5 - 06/07/21 at 19:26:59
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Lifetime repertoar and in Dragon looks like an odd combo but since Bc4 recommendation is a side line it might work.

About 2 Nc3 g6 there are some lines you must know after 3 d4. For example Kaufmanns book went for something that looks like a standard  yugoslav attack but with the Knight at e2 instead of d4 thus all theory are gone.
  
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Re: Lifetime Repertoires: Dragon Sicilian
Reply #4 - 06/07/21 at 19:15:44
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Kruppa - Tiviakov, 1991:
1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3.
d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nc3 g6 6. Be3 Bg7 7. f3 Nc6 8. Qd2 O-O 9. O-O-O d5 10.
exd5 Nxd5 11. Nxc6 bxc6 12. Bd4 e5 13. Bc5 Re8 14. Nxd5 cxd5 15. Qxd5 Qxd5 16.
Rxd5 Be6 17. Rd6 Bxa2 18. b4 a5 19. Bb5 Rec8 20. Bd7 Rc7 {last book move} 21.
Bc6 {White threatens to win material: Bc6xa8} Rac8 22. b5 {
White has a new passed pawn: b5. Black has a new passed pawn: a5} Bf8 {
Black threatens to win material: Bf8xd6} 23. Rhd1 Bxd6 24. Rxd6 {
Black wins the exchange} Rb8 25. b6 {White threatens to win material: b6xc7}
Rcc8 26. Bf2 Be6 27. Be4 a4 28. b7 1/2-1/2

Black has zero winning chances, better seems 12. ...Bxd4 and far better is 5. ...a6! Smiley

@Pantu, as you're a quite strong and experienced player, do you think Giri's chessable bibles are so some extend the last word of these openings (dragon, najdorf), how much room is left to discover something new?

  

The older, the better - over 2200 and still rising.
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