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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Stockfish suing ChessBase (Read 1432 times)
bragesjo
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Re: Stockfish suing ChessBase
Reply #20 - 07/26/21 at 06:40:14
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Technical speaking its not a complete recreation since Stockfish 14 uses both Lc0 genererated data and Stockfish vs Stockfish generated data while Fat Fritz 2 uses mainly Lc0 data, with the Fat Fritz 1 network further trained plus a few data from top level human games where one can argue if human games are improvments or not..
  
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Re: Stockfish suing ChessBase
Reply #19 - 07/25/21 at 19:10:10
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Pawnpusher wrote on 07/25/21 at 10:42:45:
I think that CB was absolutely wrong but Bragesjo is on point that Stockfish 14 does use the FF2 ideas of larger net and LcO based data to create that net. Irony at the least.

There may have been legal advantages to replicating the Fat Fritz 2 changes. When they testify that the changes made were trivial, that testimony will be based on fact rather than opinion. That one seems to be a solid advantage. Another potential legal advantage I have thought of maybe is a little less solid, so I won't add any more speculation here.
  
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bragesjo
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Re: Stockfish suing ChessBase
Reply #18 - 07/25/21 at 15:57:43
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The idea is a bit more complicated than one can think. Stockfish original  network was based on pure Stockfish vs Stockfish games and using Lc0 data is using data created by an other engine. Its not uniqe either. As I understand there are even Lc0 clones that only learned from other engines vs other engines matches. And some Lc0 clones based on human games at Lichess.

Stockfish Team first thougt of larger network as a no gain approach so its not that simple. A larger network and combined with Lc0 data might have been created anyway but no one knows for shure.
  
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Re: Stockfish suing ChessBase
Reply #17 - 07/25/21 at 15:32:53
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Pawnpusher wrote on 07/25/21 at 10:42:45:
I think that CB was absolutely wrong but Bragesjo is on point that Stockfish 14 does use the FF2 ideas of larger net and LcO based data to create that net. Irony at the least.

Are this really ideas? Using a larger net is the normal development in computing. Taking LcO based data isn't a new idea either.

But maybe I'm wrong. I'm no computer expert. This is about automated decision making aka artificial intelligence. Someone working in this field should be able to give a more qualified statement.
  

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Re: Stockfish suing ChessBase
Reply #16 - 07/25/21 at 10:42:45
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I think that CB was absolutely wrong but Bragesjo is on point that Stockfish 14 does use the FF2 ideas of larger net and LcO based data to create that net. Irony at the least.
  
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bragesjo
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Re: Stockfish suing ChessBase
Reply #15 - 07/25/21 at 10:33:40
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I am no legal expert. We will have to see what happends. I did not read the Houdini part before.

About the quote Chessbase modifikation of Stockfish was basicly a twice as large neural network and use of Lc0 generated data. And Stockfish 14 major improvments over Stockfish 13 are basicly the same thing but better done. I predict that Stockfish 15 will have even larger network.
  
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Re: Stockfish suing ChessBase
Reply #14 - 07/23/21 at 19:20:59
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https://www.chess.com/news/view/stockfish-developers-sue-chessbase-claiming-copy... Peter Doggers put up a text with the odd Chessbase quote

"One can righteously criticize the articles about Fat Fritz on Chessbase.com which constituted an unacceptable belittlement of Stockfish. The reverse belittlement of Albert's innovations by SF does not balance this, even if they now seem to follow his path with SF 14."

Ha-ha-ha.
  
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Pawnpusher
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Re: Stockfish suing ChessBase
Reply #13 - 07/23/21 at 10:49:13
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We need input from someone who has actually practiced copyright law in the EU.
  
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Re: Stockfish suing ChessBase
Reply #12 - 07/22/21 at 18:51:36
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nocteus wrote on 07/22/21 at 17:17:15:
how you could violate a copyright on an open source material

The first thing to realize is that publishing something (open source or closed source or other methods) does not negate your copyright. In fact copyright only applies to published works, it's the whole point of copyright to encourage publication by allowing the author to retain the rights. The second thing to realize is that you as copyright holder have the right to charge for use, and can waive that charge ("free" as in beer) under certain conditions. That's where it gets complicated, because everybody understands and agrees with the free part, but they don't understand and agree with the conditions part. So in effect by not complying with the conditions, the user is violating not the copyright itself but the license which governs the free part.

Not giving any details because, first, the GPL is controversial, and second, I am not a lawyer. In particular the GNU General Public License (GPL) places conditions on the use of the software, and thereby on the user of the software, which the average person is going to find strange. As TonyRo points out, people frequently ignore the conditions, but they do NOT have the right to ignore those conditions. It is your right as copyright holder to enforce those conditions.

It wouldn't surprise me if the Stockfish devs have some backing from free-software lawyers with an interest in the case, pour encourager les autres. There is also the interesting point that by waiting to file, they have allowed ChessBase to ring up more sales, which may mean greater damages to collect. One thing is clear. If they did not sue, history shows ChessBase was just going to do the same thing again in the future.
  
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nocteus
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Re: Stockfish suing ChessBase
Reply #11 - 07/22/21 at 17:17:15
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IsaVulpes wrote on 07/22/21 at 09:45:34:
bragesjo wrote on 07/22/21 at 07:46:39:
Extremly unetical yes but illegal no. I would be surprised if they win.

ChessBase is clearly and openly violating the GPL license, so I would be surprised if Team Stockfish DIDN'T win.


I confess, I would like some explanations on how you could violate a copyright on an open source material. I am not well-informed on the matter at all.
  
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Re: Stockfish suing ChessBase
Reply #10 - 07/22/21 at 13:38:16
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Bibs wrote on 07/22/21 at 11:48:35:
What is FRC?

Worth noting that not all here are necessarily massively knowledgeable about computer chess.

Federal Republic of Chelsea? I’ve no idea.


Fischer Random Chess so nothing to do with computer chess. I guess it is still not well known as FRC is despite of being around for decades not popular at all.
  
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Re: Stockfish suing ChessBase
Reply #9 - 07/22/21 at 13:17:18
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I have been a light staff member of lichess for quite a while now, and two things continually amaze me:

1. How few people actually understand the GNU General Public License.
2. How many people that actually do/should understand the GPL choose to ignore it for their own gains.
  
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Bibs
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Re: Stockfish suing ChessBase
Reply #8 - 07/22/21 at 11:48:35
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What is FRC?

Worth noting that not all here are necessarily massively knowledgeable about computer chess.

Federal Republic of Chelsea? I’ve no idea.

Well, bragesjo - illegal or unethical. That’s what the lawsuit is about, ultimately isn’t it? Simply dirty and unethical, or illegal? I’m not sure it’s you who’s deciding. I’d take a punt on ‘illegal’, but dunno if one can bet on lawsuits.
  
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brabo
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Re: Stockfish suing ChessBase
Reply #7 - 07/22/21 at 11:29:41
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bragesjo wrote on 07/22/21 at 09:10:27:
A funny thing was that Fat Fritz 2 was 2 elo better than Stockfish 13 in blitz but not in rapid and new Stockfish 14 is signifikanly better than Fat Fritz 2 in  both blitz and rapid.

I have another interpretation of significantly if I look at https://ccrl.chessdom.com/ccrl/404/
11 points difference on the astronomical 3724 is peanuts.
In fact I tested Stockfish 14 already and it barely improved compared to Stockfish 13. The real difference is FRC but who cares about FRC. Anybody playing FRC is exactly to avoid engines.
  
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Re: Stockfish suing ChessBase
Reply #6 - 07/22/21 at 09:45:34
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bragesjo wrote on 07/22/21 at 07:46:39:
Extremly unetical yes but illegal no. I would be surprised if they win.

ChessBase is clearly and openly violating the GPL license, so I would be surprised if Team Stockfish DIDN'T win.

The main "issue" I think is whether there is actually a way to sue for damages, or the result will just be a "Now you REALLY gotta stop distributing it" coming in, with CB getting to pocket everything they've scammed so far

Perhaps the main damage caused to CB after this will/should be a number of people having fewer moral quandaries about acquiring their products via dodgy russian sites, rather than Amazon..
  
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