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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Dragon repertoar by Marin from ModernChess (Read 1916 times)
mn
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Re: Dragon repertoar by Marin from ModernChess
Reply #22 - 07/25/21 at 16:40:36
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bragesjo wrote on 07/25/21 at 07:15:08:
Didnt some other recent author also go for e5?


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Re: Dragon repertoar by Marin from ModernChess
Reply #21 - 07/25/21 at 07:15:08
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I think we can start with 12 Bd4 e5 in 9 000 line.

When I was new to the Dragon I played it myself since Gufeld recommended the move. It was random that I even played Dragon at all my first opening book,  Opening repertoire for Attacking player. However at elite level first Nxc3 and after that Bxd4 become more popular. Its certainly the most combatable move. I thougt it was good for white. In one of Marins mainlines it leads to a endgame he says black can draw. Didnt some other recent author also go for e5?
« Last Edit: 07/25/21 at 10:33:21 by MNb »  
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Stigma
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Re: Dragon repertoar by Marin from ModernChess
Reply #20 - 07/24/21 at 20:59:14
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MNb wrote on 07/24/21 at 16:57:30:
I'm thinking of moving this thread to the General Chess section as only few comments are about the Dragon. Nothing wrong with this. I'll decide tomorrow; one reason is that I don't feel like today.

That's your choice, but I would prefer to keep it here. I expect the discussion to turn more towards the Dragon and Marin's recommended lines now - I mean, how much more is there to say about him as a writer and theoretician in general?

(I even bought this Dragon database myself, but I don't know when I will find the time to look at it. I finally have some real OTB chess coming up again!)
  

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Re: Dragon repertoar by Marin from ModernChess
Reply #19 - 07/24/21 at 16:57:30
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I'm thinking of moving this thread to the General Chess section as only few comments are about the Dragon. Nothing wrong with this. I'll decide tomorrow; one reason is that I don't feel like today.
  

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XChess1971
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Re: Dragon repertoar by Marin from ModernChess
Reply #18 - 07/24/21 at 15:38:42
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Stigma wrote on 07/24/21 at 08:23:03:
XChess1971 wrote on 07/24/21 at 03:09:47:
Straggler wrote on 07/23/21 at 08:37:26:
XChess1971 wrote on 07/23/21 at 05:39:39:
Well it is good to know. If there is not much explanation or no explanation at all. Chances are the GM didn't do a thorough investigation.

I don’t understand that. You may not like Marin’s recommendations, but I’ve never heard it suggested that he doesn’t provide enough explanation.


I did not say that I do not like Marin's explanations. I said that if there is little or no explanation at all maybe the GM didn't do a thorough investigation.

I have never seen a Marin work with "little or no explanation at all". As I said earlier, that's what he does best. So you can understand why people are surprised when you suggest that as a problem with this database.

Analytical errors are more likely to be an issue, especially in such a complicated opening as the Dragon.


You might be right. I'm not assuring what I am saying. I'm just saying what I think. I have different Marin's books and there is one with White for the English. I played his suggestion and I never got better in the position. Another suggestion looked interesting. But no clear opening advantage on that one either. I guess what Marin exposes is more of a playable position. But no deep analysis.
Unfortunately the complicated lines in the Dragon are very concrete. The ideas stay. But with no clear analysis you can not play it. One mistake is all it takes to go down.
  
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Re: Dragon repertoar by Marin from ModernChess
Reply #17 - 07/24/21 at 08:23:03
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XChess1971 wrote on 07/24/21 at 03:09:47:
Straggler wrote on 07/23/21 at 08:37:26:
XChess1971 wrote on 07/23/21 at 05:39:39:
Well it is good to know. If there is not much explanation or no explanation at all. Chances are the GM didn't do a thorough investigation.

I don’t understand that. You may not like Marin’s recommendations, but I’ve never heard it suggested that he doesn’t provide enough explanation.


I did not say that I do not like Marin's explanations. I said that if there is little or no explanation at all maybe the GM didn't do a thorough investigation.

I have never seen a Marin work with "little or no explanation at all". As I said earlier, that's what he does best. So you can understand why people are surprised when you suggest that as a problem with this database.

Analytical errors are more likely to be an issue, especially in such a complicated opening as the Dragon.
  

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Re: Dragon repertoar by Marin from ModernChess
Reply #16 - 07/24/21 at 03:23:15
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Straggler wrote on 07/23/21 at 17:33:42:
Bibs wrote on 07/23/21 at 14:24:49:
If there is a special hell designated for chess writers, the first to burn in caissic eternal damnation are the ghastly triumvirate of Keene (plagiarism), Schiller (just plain bad), Lakdawala

Now that is harsh. Keene and Schiller both wrote at least one decent book.

I don't even look at Schiller's books. Guess why?
  
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Re: Dragon repertoar by Marin from ModernChess
Reply #15 - 07/24/21 at 03:19:43
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bragesjo wrote on 07/23/21 at 15:44:03:
The Dragon base is huge and I see no obius mistakes. He appears to enter mainlines.

I have look at several variations hasy. It appers to be a very combatable recommendatios. In Soltis variation with direct Bh6 he goes for Bxh6 Qxh6 Rxc3 bxc3 Qc7. I thougt this was supposed to be good for white


13.Bh6 Bxh6 14.Qxh6 Rxc3 15.bxc3 Qc7, 15...Qa5 and 15...Qc8 Since forever I have known to be better for white if I am not wrong. Initially black had unbelievable play. Until some g4 combined with Nf5 line put it to rest. I don't know if there has been maybe a computer improvement for black. Otherwise I wouldn't understand why Marin recommends that. As far as I know 13...Nc4 would be the move!
  
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Re: Dragon repertoar by Marin from ModernChess
Reply #14 - 07/24/21 at 03:09:47
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Straggler wrote on 07/23/21 at 08:37:26:
XChess1971 wrote on 07/23/21 at 05:39:39:
Well it is good to know. If there is not much explanation or no explanation at all. Chances are the GM didn't do a thorough investigation.

I don’t understand that. You may not like Marin’s recommendations, but I’ve never heard it suggested that he doesn’t provide enough explanation.


I did not say that I do not like Marin's explanations. I said that if there is little or no explanation at all maybe the GM didn't do a thorough investigation.
  
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Re: Dragon repertoar by Marin from ModernChess
Reply #13 - 07/23/21 at 22:16:17
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@bragesjo:
Thanks a lot! I will stick to the Dragon in this thread from now on.
Except...

Paddy wrote on 07/23/21 at 20:25:45:
“You can put lipstick on a Bogo-Indian but it's still a Bogo-Indian."
Vishy Anand   
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Grin Is that an actual Anand quote? Funny and a bit out of character.
  

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Re: Dragon repertoar by Marin from ModernChess
Reply #12 - 07/23/21 at 20:25:45
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bragesjo wrote on 07/23/21 at 16:44:40:
Bogo Indian Nd2 he stopped writing in a sideline black gets tempo for attack where whites play is much faster evaluatiing as a pawn better for white. Stockfish 14 is a bit more optemistic for black than Stockfish 13 and Fat Fritz 2. I forgot to computer check the position before and it had not helped and I got worse lost 2 games in the same tournament.


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Re: Dragon repertoar by Marin from ModernChess
Reply #11 - 07/23/21 at 17:33:42
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Bibs wrote on 07/23/21 at 14:24:49:
If there is a special hell designated for chess writers, the first to burn in caissic eternal damnation are the ghastly triumvirate of Keene (plagiarism), Schiller (just plain bad), Lakdawala

Now that is harsh. Keene and Schiller both wrote at least one decent book.
  
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bragesjo
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Re: Dragon repertoar by Marin from ModernChess
Reply #10 - 07/23/21 at 16:44:40
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Yes Marin is good at expaining concepts and writing articles. I have most of hes none opening bases and several of hes opening bases. One can also not expect every line covered.

I will not post any games.

One side line in c4 b6 he wants to sacifice an exchange in a move. missing an  computers improvment later. I computer checked and played a normal move instead getting the better side of an easy draw.

One sideline in Nimzo Qc2 he suggested realy odd move missing a computer suggestion where both Stockfish 13 and Fat Fritz 2 thougt white is a pawn better material equal but black has problem the getting pieces out. I computer checked played a slight diversion and drawed.

Bogo Indian Nd2 he stopped writing in a sideline black gets tempo for attack where whites play is much faster evaluatiing as a pawn better for white. Stockfish 14 is a bit more optemistic for black than Stockfish 13 and Fat Fritz 2. I forgot to computer check the position before and it had not helped and I got worse lost 2 games in the same tournament.

But I think we should discuss Dragon and not Marin here.
  
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Re: Dragon repertoar by Marin from ModernChess
Reply #9 - 07/23/21 at 16:07:57
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bragesjo wrote on 07/23/21 at 15:36:50:
Sorry I was a bit harch. The holes are not in the French bases even throght one line was lighty covered even after an update. I refered to 3 other bases where he covered lines like in one case writing black gets attack when whites counter attack is much faster.

Marin has become one of my favorite instructive chess writers, but possibly he's better at identifying interesting ideas, explaining things, teaching patterns and strategies and adding historical context and a personal perspective rather than at strict analysis quality.

I found a couple of holes in his Modern Benoni repertoire databases, even without access to strong engines myself. Of course those are some 3-4 years old already, so since then everyone's analysis has improved, including Marin's.

I still can't contain my curiosity though: which Marin opening databases are the holes you're talking about in, bragesjo? Grünfeld, Modern Benoni, Hedgehog for Black, Leningrad Bird, Catalan, Nimzo-Indian, Bogo-Indian? I've bought almost all of them over the years, but as for finding time to actually study and check them, that's another matter...
  

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Re: Dragon repertoar by Marin from ModernChess
Reply #8 - 07/23/21 at 15:44:03
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The Dragon base is huge and I see no obvious mistakes. He appears to enter mainlines.

I have look at several variations hasy. It appers to be a very combatable recommendatios. In Soltis variation with direct Bh6 he goes for Bxh6 Qxh6 Rxc3 bxc3 Qc7. I thougt this was supposed to be good for white
« Last Edit: 07/24/21 at 06:15:57 by MNb »  
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