Latest Updates:
Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Dragon repertoar by Marin from ModernChess (Read 1873 times)
mn
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 538
Location: Ottawa
Joined: 09/22/16
Re: Dragon repertoar by Marin from ModernChess
Reply #22 - 07/25/21 at 16:40:36
Post Tools
bragesjo wrote on 07/25/21 at 07:15:08:
Didnt some other recent author also go for e5?


Giri
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
bragesjo
God Member
*****
Offline


CCE at ICCF 2021

Posts: 1702
Location: Eskilstuna
Joined: 06/30/06
Gender: Male
Re: Dragon repertoar by Marin from ModernChess
Reply #21 - 07/25/21 at 07:15:08
Post Tools
I think we can start with 12 Bd4 e5 in 9 000 line.

When I was new to the Dragon I played it myself since Gufeld recommended the move. It was random that I even played Dragon at all my first opening book,  Opening repertoire for Attacking player. However at elite level first Nxc3 and after that Bxd4 become more popular. Its certainly the most combatable move. I thougt it was good for white. In one of Marins mainlines it leads to a endgame he says black can draw. Didnt some other recent author also go for e5?
« Last Edit: 07/25/21 at 10:33:21 by MNb »  
Back to top
WWW  
IP Logged
 
Stigma
God Member
*****
Offline


There is a crack in everything.

Posts: 3209
Joined: 11/07/06
Gender: Male
Re: Dragon repertoar by Marin from ModernChess
Reply #20 - 07/24/21 at 20:59:14
Post Tools
MNb wrote on 07/24/21 at 16:57:30:
I'm thinking of moving this thread to the General Chess section as only few comments are about the Dragon. Nothing wrong with this. I'll decide tomorrow; one reason is that I don't feel like today.

That's your choice, but I would prefer to keep it here. I expect the discussion to turn more towards the Dragon and Marin's recommended lines now - I mean, how much more is there to say about him as a writer and theoretician in general?

(I even bought this Dragon database myself, but I don't know when I will find the time to look at it. I finally have some real OTB chess coming up again!)
  

Improvement begins at the edge of your comfort zone. -Jonathan Rowson
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MNb
YaBB Moderator
*****
Online


Rudolf Spielmann forever

Posts: 10619
Location: Moengo
Joined: 01/05/04
Gender: Male
Re: Dragon repertoar by Marin from ModernChess
Reply #19 - 07/24/21 at 16:57:30
Post Tools
I'm thinking of moving this thread to the General Chess section as only few comments are about the Dragon. Nothing wrong with this. I'll decide tomorrow; one reason is that I don't feel like today.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
GC Lichtenberg
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
XChess1971
Full Member
***
Offline


Born with a Dragon Book!

Posts: 204
Location: USA
Joined: 09/07/04
Gender: Male
Re: Dragon repertoar by Marin from ModernChess
Reply #18 - 07/24/21 at 15:38:42
Post Tools
Stigma wrote on 07/24/21 at 08:23:03:
XChess1971 wrote on 07/24/21 at 03:09:47:
Straggler wrote on 07/23/21 at 08:37:26:
XChess1971 wrote on 07/23/21 at 05:39:39:
Well it is good to know. If there is not much explanation or no explanation at all. Chances are the GM didn't do a thorough investigation.

I don’t understand that. You may not like Marin’s recommendations, but I’ve never heard it suggested that he doesn’t provide enough explanation.


I did not say that I do not like Marin's explanations. I said that if there is little or no explanation at all maybe the GM didn't do a thorough investigation.

I have never seen a Marin work with "little or no explanation at all". As I said earlier, that's what he does best. So you can understand why people are surprised when you suggest that as a problem with this database.

Analytical errors are more likely to be an issue, especially in such a complicated opening as the Dragon.


You might be right. I'm not assuring what I am saying. I'm just saying what I think. I have different Marin's books and there is one with White for the English. I played his suggestion and I never got better in the position. Another suggestion looked interesting. But no clear opening advantage on that one either. I guess what Marin exposes is more of a playable position. But no deep analysis.
Unfortunately the complicated lines in the Dragon are very concrete. The ideas stay. But with no clear analysis you can not play it. One mistake is all it takes to go down.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Stigma
God Member
*****
Offline


There is a crack in everything.

Posts: 3209
Joined: 11/07/06
Gender: Male
Re: Dragon repertoar by Marin from ModernChess
Reply #17 - 07/24/21 at 08:23:03
Post Tools
XChess1971 wrote on 07/24/21 at 03:09:47:
Straggler wrote on 07/23/21 at 08:37:26:
XChess1971 wrote on 07/23/21 at 05:39:39:
Well it is good to know. If there is not much explanation or no explanation at all. Chances are the GM didn't do a thorough investigation.

I don’t understand that. You may not like Marin’s recommendations, but I’ve never heard it suggested that he doesn’t provide enough explanation.


I did not say that I do not like Marin's explanations. I said that if there is little or no explanation at all maybe the GM didn't do a thorough investigation.

I have never seen a Marin work with "little or no explanation at all". As I said earlier, that's what he does best. So you can understand why people are surprised when you suggest that as a problem with this database.

Analytical errors are more likely to be an issue, especially in such a complicated opening as the Dragon.
  

Improvement begins at the edge of your comfort zone. -Jonathan Rowson
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
XChess1971
Full Member
***
Offline


Born with a Dragon Book!

Posts: 204
Location: USA
Joined: 09/07/04
Gender: Male
Re: Dragon repertoar by Marin from ModernChess
Reply #16 - 07/24/21 at 03:23:15
Post Tools
Straggler wrote on 07/23/21 at 17:33:42:
Bibs wrote on 07/23/21 at 14:24:49:
If there is a special hell designated for chess writers, the first to burn in caissic eternal damnation are the ghastly triumvirate of Keene (plagiarism), Schiller (just plain bad), Lakdawala

Now that is harsh. Keene and Schiller both wrote at least one decent book.

I don't even look at Schiller's books. Guess why?
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
XChess1971
Full Member
***
Offline


Born with a Dragon Book!

Posts: 204
Location: USA
Joined: 09/07/04
Gender: Male
Re: Dragon repertoar by Marin from ModernChess
Reply #15 - 07/24/21 at 03:19:43
Post Tools
bragesjo wrote on 07/23/21 at 15:44:03:
The Dragon base is huge and I see no obius mistakes. He appears to enter mainlines.

I have look at several variations hasy. It appers to be a very combatable recommendatios. In Soltis variation with direct Bh6 he goes for Bxh6 Qxh6 Rxc3 bxc3 Qc7. I thougt this was supposed to be good for white


13.Bh6 Bxh6 14.Qxh6 Rxc3 15.bxc3 Qc7, 15...Qa5 and 15...Qc8 Since forever I have known to be better for white if I am not wrong. Initially black had unbelievable play. Until some g4 combined with Nf5 line put it to rest. I don't know if there has been maybe a computer improvement for black. Otherwise I wouldn't understand why Marin recommends that. As far as I know 13...Nc4 would be the move!
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
XChess1971
Full Member
***
Offline


Born with a Dragon Book!

Posts: 204
Location: USA
Joined: 09/07/04
Gender: Male
Re: Dragon repertoar by Marin from ModernChess
Reply #14 - 07/24/21 at 03:09:47
Post Tools
Straggler wrote on 07/23/21 at 08:37:26:
XChess1971 wrote on 07/23/21 at 05:39:39:
Well it is good to know. If there is not much explanation or no explanation at all. Chances are the GM didn't do a thorough investigation.

I don’t understand that. You may not like Marin’s recommendations, but I’ve never heard it suggested that he doesn’t provide enough explanation.


I did not say that I do not like Marin's explanations. I said that if there is little or no explanation at all maybe the GM didn't do a thorough investigation.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Stigma
God Member
*****
Offline


There is a crack in everything.

Posts: 3209
Joined: 11/07/06
Gender: Male
Re: Dragon repertoar by Marin from ModernChess
Reply #13 - 07/23/21 at 22:16:17
Post Tools
@bragesjo:
Thanks a lot! I will stick to the Dragon in this thread from now on.
Except...

Paddy wrote on 07/23/21 at 20:25:45:
“You can put lipstick on a Bogo-Indian but it's still a Bogo-Indian."
Vishy Anand   
Smiley
-)


Grin Is that an actual Anand quote? Funny and a bit out of character.
  

Improvement begins at the edge of your comfort zone. -Jonathan Rowson
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paddy
God Member
*****
Offline


The truth will out!

Posts: 939
Location: Manchester
Joined: 01/10/03
Gender: Male
Re: Dragon repertoar by Marin from ModernChess
Reply #12 - 07/23/21 at 20:25:45
Post Tools
bragesjo wrote on 07/23/21 at 16:44:40:
Bogo Indian Nd2 he stopped writing in a sideline black gets tempo for attack where whites play is much faster evaluatiing as a pawn better for white. Stockfish 14 is a bit more optemistic for black than Stockfish 13 and Fat Fritz 2. I forgot to computer check the position before and it had not helped and I got worse lost 2 games in the same tournament.


“You can put lipstick on a Bogo-Indian but it's still a Bogo-Indian."
Vishy Anand   
Smiley
-)

  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Straggler
Senior Member
****
Offline



Posts: 370
Joined: 08/09/09
Re: Dragon repertoar by Marin from ModernChess
Reply #11 - 07/23/21 at 17:33:42
Post Tools
Bibs wrote on 07/23/21 at 14:24:49:
If there is a special hell designated for chess writers, the first to burn in caissic eternal damnation are the ghastly triumvirate of Keene (plagiarism), Schiller (just plain bad), Lakdawala

Now that is harsh. Keene and Schiller both wrote at least one decent book.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
bragesjo
God Member
*****
Offline


CCE at ICCF 2021

Posts: 1702
Location: Eskilstuna
Joined: 06/30/06
Gender: Male
Re: Dragon repertoar by Marin from ModernChess
Reply #10 - 07/23/21 at 16:44:40
Post Tools
Yes Marin is good at expaining concepts and writing articles. I have most of hes none opening bases and several of hes opening bases. One can also not expect every line covered.

I will not post any games.

One side line in c4 b6 he wants to sacifice an exchange in a move. missing an  computers improvment later. I computer checked and played a normal move instead getting the better side of an easy draw.

One sideline in Nimzo Qc2 he suggested realy odd move missing a computer suggestion where both Stockfish 13 and Fat Fritz 2 thougt white is a pawn better material equal but black has problem the getting pieces out. I computer checked played a slight diversion and drawed.

Bogo Indian Nd2 he stopped writing in a sideline black gets tempo for attack where whites play is much faster evaluatiing as a pawn better for white. Stockfish 14 is a bit more optemistic for black than Stockfish 13 and Fat Fritz 2. I forgot to computer check the position before and it had not helped and I got worse lost 2 games in the same tournament.

But I think we should discuss Dragon and not Marin here.
  
Back to top
WWW  
IP Logged
 
Stigma
God Member
*****
Offline


There is a crack in everything.

Posts: 3209
Joined: 11/07/06
Gender: Male
Re: Dragon repertoar by Marin from ModernChess
Reply #9 - 07/23/21 at 16:07:57
Post Tools
bragesjo wrote on 07/23/21 at 15:36:50:
Sorry I was a bit harch. The holes are not in the French bases even throght one line was lighty covered even after an update. I refered to 3 other bases where he covered lines like in one case writing black gets attack when whites counter attack is much faster.

Marin has become one of my favorite instructive chess writers, but possibly he's better at identifying interesting ideas, explaining things, teaching patterns and strategies and adding historical context and a personal perspective rather than at strict analysis quality.

I found a couple of holes in his Modern Benoni repertoire databases, even without access to strong engines myself. Of course those are some 3-4 years old already, so since then everyone's analysis has improved, including Marin's.

I still can't contain my curiosity though: which Marin opening databases are the holes you're talking about in, bragesjo? Grünfeld, Modern Benoni, Hedgehog for Black, Leningrad Bird, Catalan, Nimzo-Indian, Bogo-Indian? I've bought almost all of them over the years, but as for finding time to actually study and check them, that's another matter...
  

Improvement begins at the edge of your comfort zone. -Jonathan Rowson
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
bragesjo
God Member
*****
Offline


CCE at ICCF 2021

Posts: 1702
Location: Eskilstuna
Joined: 06/30/06
Gender: Male
Re: Dragon repertoar by Marin from ModernChess
Reply #8 - 07/23/21 at 15:44:03
Post Tools
The Dragon base is huge and I see no obvious mistakes. He appears to enter mainlines.

I have look at several variations hasy. It appers to be a very combatable recommendatios. In Soltis variation with direct Bh6 he goes for Bxh6 Qxh6 Rxc3 bxc3 Qc7. I thougt this was supposed to be good for white
« Last Edit: 07/24/21 at 06:15:57 by MNb »  
Back to top
WWW  
IP Logged
 
bragesjo
God Member
*****
Offline


CCE at ICCF 2021

Posts: 1702
Location: Eskilstuna
Joined: 06/30/06
Gender: Male
Re: Dragon repertoar by Marin from ModernChess
Reply #7 - 07/23/21 at 15:36:50
Post Tools
Sorry I was a bit harsh. The holes are not in the French bases even though one line was lighty covered even after an update. I refered to 3 other bases where he covered lines like in one case writing black gets attack when whites counter attack is much faster. The French bases helped me get a CCE title. I only meant he realises bases at a high tempo. I also liked several of hes none opening bases. I think we get back to Dragon discussion.
« Last Edit: 07/24/21 at 06:15:34 by MNb »  
Back to top
WWW  
IP Logged
 
CanadianClub
Senior Member
****
Offline


Greetings from Catalonia!

Posts: 372
Joined: 11/11/12
Gender: Male
Re: Dragon repertoar by Marin from ModernChess
Reply #6 - 07/23/21 at 15:24:05
Post Tools
bragesjo wrote on 07/23/21 at 10:51:58:
Marin is like ModernChess version of Lakdawala in terms of writing opening stuff. He is a strong player and has written many good bases even for ModernChess but in more than 3 bases there are incorrect concrete opening recommendations where opponents gets a large edge.


Please, don't tell me the other holes are in his French repertoire databases for Black. I had them, but did not checked them in detail with Stockfish. I intended to give then a chance (especially the Winawer lines).

I considered Marin a totally trustworthy author. I even considered buying his quality chess books on the Dutch (I assume there are more people checking lines in a book, btw).

thx to pointed this out to us
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Bibs
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 2264
Joined: 10/24/06
Re: Dragon repertoar by Marin from ModernChess
Reply #5 - 07/23/21 at 14:24:49
Post Tools
That’s unduly harsh, I’m sure. Saying an author is like Lakdawala is the worst of possible insults. Worse than insulting someone’s grandmother.

If there is a special hell designated for chess writers, the first to burn in caissic eternal damnation are the ghastly triumvirate of Keene (plagiarism), Schiller (just plain bad), Lakdawala (prose style, volume of thundering irrelevance). 

*Back to the ranch*

To the database, I’ve not seen it, and it does surprise me admittedly to see Marin writing about the Dragon. Holes spotted bragesjo? I know you’re a real theory guru on this.



  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
bragesjo
God Member
*****
Offline


CCE at ICCF 2021

Posts: 1702
Location: Eskilstuna
Joined: 06/30/06
Gender: Male
Re: Dragon repertoar by Marin from ModernChess
Reply #4 - 07/23/21 at 10:51:58
Post Tools
Marin is like ModernChess version of Lakdawala in terms of writing opening stuff. He is a strong player and has written many good bases even for ModernChess but in more than 3 bases there are incorrect concrete opening recommendations where opponents gets a large edge.
« Last Edit: 07/23/21 at 11:52:29 by MNb »  
Back to top
WWW  
IP Logged
 
bragesjo
God Member
*****
Offline


CCE at ICCF 2021

Posts: 1702
Location: Eskilstuna
Joined: 06/30/06
Gender: Male
Re: Dragon repertoar by Marin from ModernChess
Reply #3 - 07/23/21 at 08:49:14
Post Tools
The base has several explanation video chapters.

Looking at the repertoar most lines look like main
9 000 d5 Kb1 Nxd4 with exf6
9 00 d5 Qe1 e5 meeting the topical 14 Kb1 with Re8.

9 g4 yugoslav Be6

9 Bc4 yugoslav Rc8 meeting h4 with h5 or Topalov Nxd4 B5 system

So mainly looks likn only e5 vs 900 with Bd4 that look a bit odd vs Yugoslav attack.

The base is comple repertoar so every 00 system is also  covered

« Last Edit: 07/24/21 at 06:12:12 by MNb »  
Back to top
WWW  
IP Logged
 
Straggler
Senior Member
****
Offline



Posts: 370
Joined: 08/09/09
Re: Dragon repertoar by Marin from ModernChess
Reply #2 - 07/23/21 at 08:37:26
Post Tools
XChess1971 wrote on 07/23/21 at 05:39:39:
Well it is good to know. If there is not much explanation or no explanation at all. Chances are the GM didn't do a thorough investigation.

I don’t understand that. You may not like Marin’s recommendations, but I’ve never heard it suggested that he doesn’t provide enough explanation.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
XChess1971
Full Member
***
Offline


Born with a Dragon Book!

Posts: 204
Location: USA
Joined: 09/07/04
Gender: Male
Re: Dragon repertoar by Marin from ModernChess
Reply #1 - 07/23/21 at 05:39:39
Post Tools
bragesjo wrote on 07/22/21 at 13:16:13:
For those interested Marin made a new Dragon opening database for ModernChess. Some odd locking recommendatios like e5 vs Bd4 in 9 000 line.

Not shure I would trust the base, I will lose 2 rated Correspondence Chess games in other openings where Marins ModernChess bases had analytical errors and Stockfish 14 thinks 1.5 pawns better for opponent already in opening fase and almost lost an other game as well but hes recommendation looked to illegal so I computer checken and diverted and drawed.


Well it is good to know. If there is not much explanation or no explanation at all. Chances are the GM didn't do a thorough investigation.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
bragesjo
God Member
*****
Offline


CCE at ICCF 2021

Posts: 1702
Location: Eskilstuna
Joined: 06/30/06
Gender: Male
Dragon repertoar by Marin from ModernChess
07/22/21 at 13:16:13
Post Tools
For those interested Marin made a new Dragon opening database for ModernChess. Some odd locking recommendatios like e5 vs Bd4 in 9 000 line.

Not sure I would trust the base, I will lose 2 rated Correspondence Chess games in other openings where Marins ModernChess bases had analytical errors and Stockfish 14 thinks 1.5 pawns better for opponent already in opening fase and almost lost an other game as well but hes recommendation looked to illegal so I computer checken and diverted and drawed.
« Last Edit: 07/23/21 at 05:51:29 by MNb »  
Back to top
WWW  
IP Logged
 
Bookmarks: del.icio.us Digg Facebook Google Google+ Linked in reddit StumbleUpon Twitter Yahoo