Sorry made a typo of course not 12...

Edit: the moderator repaired it.

I appears that the game Imentioned is viewable to the public. It will not post the game but can show a link. https://www.iccf.com/game?id=1241082

My idea was to play Kalachnikov or Dragon depending on whites reply. I got several draws in several Kalchnikov games, no loses or wins, but I like to experiement in in openings and tried Scandinavian in a few games as well mosly draws and a few loses and a single win. I find Scandinvian good in over the board but not that good in Corr.

I will return to Kalchnikov/Accelereted Dragon combo again in the future but I will not join in any new events unbntill next year, I want to complete many games before joining any new event.
Also black does not have to transpose to Dragon proper. It is possible to take advantage of the move order and play other safer options instead of entering Bc4 Yugoslav attack.

Jones book wanted to play 15 .. hxg4 where Marin base showed that the line is better for white.

My new move was 21 .. Nc4, engines top choice, while Marin mention several other moves in hes base.
About final position, is a easy draw with access to computer with table bases.

I have been looking over the Dragon quite a bit in the last few days, mostly just for fun, possibly for a YouTube video, and it's kind of a bummer how hard the 12.Kb1 lines are for Black. Seems to me the current state is that 12...Nc4 is practically refuted now, and 12...Re8 and 12...a6 might draw with flawless play but would both be fairly uncomfortable OTB. The Topalov and Giri lines are obviously good and easier to play, but for a long time all I did was crush people in the Soltis and I miss that! 

Game became draw but my improvent line is inpractical in over the board play but easy draw in Correspondence Chess if one has tablebases. I dont know if I can post any concrete moves either untill the event is complete.

I have by the way tried Lichess Correspondence Chess by accident. Different rules. Opening books allowed engines not. Also faster tempo.

I stopped a few months ago playing this 9.Bc4 line because of the recommendation of Anish Giri: 9...Nxd4 10.Bxd4 Be6.
https://www.chessable.com/lifetime-repertoires-dragon-sicilian/course/69959/
I couldn't find anything interesting worth a try for a next game. Did you check that?

A small comment. I am playing a Dragon game in Correspondence Chess. I  met a line in Bc4 yugoslav where Marin played a different move than Jones book. Marin showed why the line was better for white and computer agreed so I played Marin move instead , and best move accordiing to all engines. I can not give more details since games are secrret to publc according to tournament rules.

I think we can start with 12 Bd4 e5 in 9 000 line.

When I was new to the Dragon I played it myself since Gufeld recommended the move. It was random that I even played Dragon at all my first opening book,  Opening repertoire for Attacking player. However at elite level first Nxc3 and after that Bxd4 become more popular. Its certainly the most combatable move. I thougt it was good for white. In one of Marins mainlines it leads to a endgame he says black can draw. Didnt some other recent author also go for e5?

I'm thinking of moving this thread to the General Chess section as only few comments are about the Dragon. Nothing wrong with this. I'll decide tomorrow; one reason is that I don't feel like today.

XChess1971 wrote on 07/24/21 at 03:09:47:

I have never seen a Marin work with "little or no explanation at all". As I said earlier, that's what he does best. So you can understand why people are surprised when you suggest that as a problem with this database.

Analytical errors are more likely to be an issue, especially in such a complicated opening as the Dragon.

bragesjo wrote on 07/23/21 at 15:44:03:


13.Bh6 Bxh6 14.Qxh6 Rxc3 15.bxc3 Qc7, 15...Qa5 and 15...Qc8 Since forever I have known to be better for white if I am not wrong. Initially black had unbelievable play. Until some g4 combined with Nf5 line put it to rest. I don't know if there has been maybe a computer improvement for black. Otherwise I wouldn't understand why Marin recommends that. As far as I know 13...Nc4 would be the move!

@bragesjo:
Thanks a lot! I will stick to the Dragon in this thread from now on.
Except...

Paddy wrote on 07/23/21 at 20:25:45:

Is that an actual Anand quote? Funny and a bit out of character.

Bibs wrote on 07/23/21 at 14:24:49:

Now that is harsh. Keene and Schiller both wrote at least one decent book.

bragesjo wrote on 07/23/21 at 15:36:50:

Marin has become one of my favorite instructive chess writers, but possibly he's better at identifying interesting ideas, explaining things, teaching patterns and strategies and adding historical context and a personal perspective rather than at strict analysis quality.

I found a couple of holes in his Modern Benoni repertoire databases, even without access to strong engines myself. Of course those are some 3-4 years old already, so since then everyone's analysis has improved, including Marin's.

I still can't contain my curiosity though: which Marin opening databases are the holes you're talking about in, bragesjo? Grünfeld, Modern Benoni, Hedgehog for Black, Leningrad Bird, Catalan, Nimzo-Indian, Bogo-Indian? I've bought almost all of them over the years, but as for finding time to actually study and check them, that's another matter...

Sorry I was a bit harsh. The holes are not in the French bases even though one line was lighty covered even after an update. I refered to 3 other bases where he covered lines like in one case writing black gets attack when whites counter attack is much faster. The French bases helped me get a CCE title. I only meant he realises bases at a high tempo. I also liked several of hes none opening bases. I think we get back to Dragon discussion.

That’s unduly harsh, I’m sure. Saying an author is like Lakdawala is the worst of possible insults. Worse than insulting someone’s grandmother.

If there is a special hell designated for chess writers, the first to burn in caissic eternal damnation are the ghastly triumvirate of Keene (plagiarism), Schiller (just plain bad), Lakdawala (prose style, volume of thundering irrelevance). 

*Back to the ranch*

To the database, I’ve not seen it, and it does surprise me admittedly to see Marin writing about the Dragon. Holes spotted bragesjo? I know you’re a real theory guru on this.

The base has several explanation video chapters.

Looking at the repertoar most lines look like main
9 000 d5 Kb1 Nxd4 with exf6
9 00 d5 Qe1 e5 meeting the topical 14 Kb1 with Re8.

9 g4 yugoslav Be6

9 Bc4 yugoslav Rc8 meeting h4 with h5 or Topalov Nxd4 B5 system

So mainly looks likn only e5 vs 900 with Bd4 that look a bit odd vs Yugoslav attack.

The base is comple repertoar so every 00 system is also  covered

bragesjo wrote on 07/22/21 at 13:16:13:


Well it is good to know. If there is not much explanation or no explanation at all. Chances are the GM didn't do a thorough investigation.