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Poll closed Question: Vienna or Ragozin
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5...dxc Vienna    
  11 (40.7%)
5...h6 Ragozin    
  16 (59.3%)




Total votes: 27
« Last Modified by: FreeRepublic on: 08/06/21 at 21:45:11 »
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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Vienna or Ragozin (Read 5831 times)
FreeRepublic
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Re: Vienna or Ragozin
Reply #17 - 08/11/21 at 15:25:48
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I was curious about which lines were chosen by top players. (I also had to pick up Vienna game arising from another move order.)

In summary:

Fischer 1 h6
Korchnoi 3 h6, 1 dxc, 2 Nbd7
Karpov 1 h6, 1 dxc
Kasparov 1 dxc
Kramnik 3Nbd7, 1 h6, 5 dxc
Anand 6 h6, 7 dxc4
Carlsen 7 h6,  5 dxc, 2 c5, 2 0-0
Aronian 7 h6, 25 dxc, 5 Nbd7
  
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FreeRepublic
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Re: Vienna or Ragozin
Reply #16 - 08/11/21 at 13:32:23
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CanadianClub wrote on 08/11/21 at 11:01:39:
the altenartives on move 5 after

1d4 Nf6 2c4 e6 3Nf3 d5 4Nc3 Bb4

are played very rarely. The big three (Qa4, Bg5 and cxd5) are the main options in popularity


Yes. 5Qa4 and 5cxd5 are common to both the Vienna and Ragozin variations, even if opening books may call them the Ragozin.

The two variations only differ after 5Bg5. Then you have a choice, our poll, between 5...h6 (Ragozin) and 5...dxc4 (Vienna).

Perhaps it is not so much a question of which variations to learn, as it is a question of which variation to learn first! Both may be part of one's repertoire.

Either way, white can easily make a reasonable but second rate move. As you pointed out, 1d4 Nf6 2c4 e6 3Nf3 d5 4Nc3 Bb4 5Bg5 h6 6Bh4 is dubious. The same can be said of 1d4 Nf6 2c4 e6 3Nf3 d5 4Nc3 Bb4 5Bg5 dxc 5e3.

Thanks for the posts.
  
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CanadianClub
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Re: Vienna or Ragozin
Reply #15 - 08/11/21 at 11:05:34
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And I have to say that after 

1d4 Nf6 2c4 e6 3Nf3 d5 4Nc3 Bb4 5Bg5 h6 6Bh4? cxd4!

is very very common in only rapid and blitz games. Another plus of 5...h6 xDD
  
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CanadianClub
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Re: Vienna or Ragozin
Reply #14 - 08/11/21 at 11:01:39
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Of course, in this "Play the Ragozin", Mr Pert advocates for the Vienna xDD It is something that shocked me when I bought the book. And there are the more critical lines of the entire book, imho.

In general, different authors give us different options and it's up to us to have a feel about any line, and see which one do we like the most. I feel Ragozin and Nimzo are more closely related, more similar. Vienna tends to be another kind of animal, more open.

And my feelings about the Vienna is that if White knows what he is doing, Black moves are more forced/unique to get a good position; and this "good positions you want" usually ends up being sharper, so White have options there too. In the Ragozin we have some options to deviate and have a playable position anyways.

In my little experience with the Ragozin, the altenartives on move 5 after 

  1d4 Nf6 2c4 e6 3Nf3 d5 4Nc3 Bb4 

are played very rarely. The big three (Qa4, Bg5 and cxd5) are the main options in popularity at my level (I get games with people between 1700 - 2200 fide). Very few cxd5 btw (a lot of Qa4 and Bg5). Other options are directly bad or not-so-logic (g3 or e3) because it's common to play them at move 4.

Salut,
  
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FreeRepublic
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Re: Vienna or Ragozin
Reply #13 - 08/10/21 at 21:15:59
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Stigma wrote on 08/10/21 at 21:06:55:
Maybe 4...dxc4 is formally categorized as a QGA, but in practice it has been one of two move orders to reach the Vienna.


I agree.
  
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Re: Vienna or Ragozin
Reply #12 - 08/10/21 at 21:06:55
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FreeRepublic wrote on 08/10/21 at 19:19:08:
Stigma wrote on 08/10/21 at 18:16:47:
1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.Nf3 d5 4.Nc3 dxc4.

Maybe you're worried about lines like 5.e4 Bb4 6.Bxc4 ?


I believe this position is categorized as the Queen's gambit accepted. Aptly named, as the game usually continues 6...Nxe4 70-0 and white seems to have plenty of play for the pawn.


Maybe 4...dxc4 is formally categorized as a QGA, but in practice it has been one of two move orders to reach the Vienna. To be honest I even thought it was considered the normal one, but maybe that has changed in recent years.

I believe both Gustafsson in his Black against 1.d4 video series on Chess24 and Delchev in a Vienna repertoire for Modern Chess used the 4...dxc4 move order. It all depends which other lines Black is willing to allow beside the Bg5 Vienna.
  
Improvement begins at the edge of your comfort zone. -Jonathan Rowson
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FreeRepublic
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Re: Vienna or Ragozin
Reply #11 - 08/10/21 at 20:31:47
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CanadianClub wrote on 08/10/21 at 09:16:38:
The Bg5 Ragozin line has to be learned anyways because of transpositions (like 5.cxd5 cxd5 6.Bg5), isn't it?


I gave a long answer to this question below. I'll attempt a short answer: "no." Here is a common, arguably the main, line of the Ragozin:
1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 e6 3. Nf3 d5 4. Nc3 Bb4 5. Bg5 h6 6. Bf6 Qf6 7. e3. Black should learn this to learn the Ragozin. It can not be forced after the moves 5cxd5 exd5 6Bg5. A Vienna player does not need to learn it.

I'll admit the two variations (Vienna, Ragozin) merge after 5cxd5 exd5 6Bg5. If so, you get an important line that is distinct from both:
1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 e6 3. Nf3 d5 4. Nc3 Bb4 5. Bg5 dxc (Vienna)
and
1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 e6 3. Nf3 d5 4. Nc3 Bb4 5. Bg5 h6 6Bxf6, the main line Ragozin.
  
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Re: Vienna or Ragozin
Reply #10 - 08/10/21 at 19:19:08
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Stigma wrote on 08/10/21 at 18:16:47:
1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.Nf3 d5 4.Nc3 dxc4.

Maybe you're worried about lines like 5.e4 Bb4 6.Bxc4 ?


I believe this position is categorized as the Queen's gambit accepted. Aptly named, as the game usually continues 6...Nxe4 70-0 and white seems to have plenty of play for the pawn.
  
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Re: Vienna or Ragozin
Reply #9 - 08/10/21 at 18:16:47
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If you're considering the Vienna, why not play it on move 4? I.e. 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.Nf3 d5 4.Nc3 dxc4.

Maybe you're worried about lines like 5.e4 Bb4 6.Bxc4 ? I have no idea of the theoretical status of any of this, I'm just curious.
  
Improvement begins at the edge of your comfort zone. -Jonathan Rowson
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FreeRepublic
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Re: Vienna or Ragozin
Reply #8 - 08/10/21 at 17:43:19
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FreeRepublic wrote on 08/10/21 at 17:30:44:
Pert's Play the Ragozin. Chapters 4 through 7 start:

"1d4 d5 2c4 e6 3Nf3 Nf6 4Nc3 Bb4 5Bg5 cxd!"


Correction: 5...dxc4!

Mistake aside, when given the choice Pert chooses the Vienna (5...dxc4) over the Ragozin (5...h6).
  
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Re: Vienna or Ragozin
Reply #7 - 08/10/21 at 17:39:02
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Pawnpusher wrote on 08/10/21 at 11:27:54:
Ragozin, ... anything that Fischer thought was playable has to have some merit.


No disagreement there. However you might want to consider some of the black players in the following list of games. These games are found Panczyk and Ilczuk's book on the Vienna (Kindle edition):

Game 1 E.Bogoljubow-H.Wolf Karlsbad 1923
Loc 71
Game 2 A.Alekhine-H.Woher
Loc 112
Game 3 F.Apsenieks-E.Grünfeld
Loc 151
Game 4 C.Rosenberger-E.Grünfeld
Loc 164
Game 5 V.Chekhover-Em.Lasker
Loc 184
Game 6 A.Alekhine & H.Frank-E.Bogoljubow & Pfaffenroth
Loc 201
Game 7 M.Bartosek-L.Pachman
Loc 213
Game 8 C.Horvath-R.Ekström
Loc 484
Game 9 P.Giulian-Z.Gyimesi
Loc 519 
Game 10 H.Stefansson-M.Petursson
loc 558
Game 11 R.Jankowicz-J.Trusewicz
loc 600
Game 12 R.Pogorelov-A.Kolev
Loc 630
Game 13 H.Grünberg-Cs.Horvath
Loc 651
Game 14 B.Bachmann-Sharf
Loc 667
Game 15 J.Flyckt Olsen-N.Kalinichenko
Loc 704
Game 16 Li Wenliang-M.Richter
Loc 953
Game 17 R.Ponomariov-V.Ivanchuk
Loc 993
Game 18 R.Palliser-P.Wells
Loc 1044
Game 19 A.Dreev-S.Kishnev
Loc 1073
Game 20 A.Greenfeld-J.Piket
Loc 1114
Game 21 T.Pranitchi-J.Solar
Loc 1144
Game 22 A.Grischuk-V.Kramnik
Loc 1187
Game 23 G.Gajewski-R.Wojtaszek
Loc 1517
Game 24 L.D.Nisipeanu-Z.Gyimesi
Loc 1526
Game 25 I.Khenkin-I.Khairullin
Loc 1557
Game 26 D.Navara-K.Lahno
Loc 1649
Game 27 K.Sakaev-Se.Ivanov
Loc 1726
Game 28 V.Kramnik-L.Van Wely
Loc 1762
Game 29 D.Svetushkin-S.Marjanovic
Loc 1839
Game 30 J.Piket-V.Topalov
Loc 1871
Game 31 K.Lahno-A.Kosteniuk
Loc 2170
Game 32 A.Rustemov-M.Neubauer
Loc 2214
Game 33 R.Kempinski-T.Markowski
Loc 2261
Game 34 M.Notkin-Y.Yakovich
Loc 2289
Game 35 R.Akesson-K.Landa
Loc 2345
Game 36 J.Zidu-R.Cortes Olivares
Loc 2620
Game 37 A.Dreev-I.Kharlov
Loc 2668
Game 38 V.Malakhatko-I.Khenkin
Loc 2736
Game 39 F.Patocka-G.Flitsch
Loc 2765
Game 40 A.Karpov-L.Aronian
Loc 2804
Game 41 S.Prayitno-M.Paragua
Loc 3177
Game 42 V.Kramnik-V.Anand
Loc 3203
Game 43 V.Kramnik-V.Anand
Loc 3274
Game 44 S.Kloster-M.Vecek
Loc 3346
Game 45 Ding Liren-W.So
Loc 3394
Game 46 T.Radjabov-L.Aronian
Loc 3412
Game 47 Le Quang Liem-Y.Shulman
Loc 3453
Game 48 Wang Yue-B.Gelfand
Loc 3492
Game 49 F.Behrhorst-F.Bulthaupt
Loc 3789
Game 50 A.Kupsys-A.Lanc
Loc 3812
Game 51 B.Machul-P.Walczak
Loc 3843 
Game 52 G.Kamsky-L.Van Wely
Loc 3880
Game 53 I.Khmelniker-I.Khenkin
Loc 3921
Game 54 H.Adelseck-E.Calhau
Loc 3955
Game 55 M.Vachier Lagrave-L.Aronian
Loc 4346 
Game 56 V.Kunin-A.Arustamian
Loc 4368
Game 57 N.Zhukova-A.Stefanova
Loc 4427
Game 58 Z.Ribli-P.Acs
Loc 4474 
Game 59 V.Malakhatko-C.Bauer
Loc 4516
Game 60 V.Babula-M.Thesing
Loc 4842
Game 61 L.Fressinet-S.Movsesian
Loc 4913
Game 62 Z.Kozul-Ki.Georgiev
Loc 4952
Game 63 T.Polak-S.Movsesian
Loc 5021
Game 64 A.Dutra Neto-F.Hoffmann
Loc 5064
Game 65 R.Kempinski-M.Cornette
Loc 5262. 
Game 66 P.Dias-S.Sulskis
Loc 5318
Game 67 P.Eljanov-J.Gustafsson
Loc 5554
Game 68 A.Shchekachev-S.Feller
Loc 5616
Game 69 Zhao Jun-Xiu Deshun
Loc 5708
Game 70 P.Lasinskas-A.Kolev
Loc 5760
Game 71 L.M.Christiansen-Z.Ribli
Loc 5789

  
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Re: Vienna or Ragozin
Reply #6 - 08/10/21 at 17:30:44
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CanadianClub wrote on 08/10/21 at 09:16:38:
Sielecki's chessable Nimzo+Ragozin course and Pert's Play the Ragozin are my sources right now


Seielecki is Ragozin all the way. But take a close look at Pert's Play the Ragozin. Chapters 4 through 7 start:

"1d4 d5 2c4 e6 3Nf3 Nf6 4Nc3 Bb4 5Bg5 cxd!"

That's the Vienna variation!
  
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Re: Vienna or Ragozin
Reply #5 - 08/10/21 at 17:22:58
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CanadianClub wrote on 08/10/21 at 09:16:38:
The Bg5 Ragozin line has to be learned anyways because of transpositions (like 5.cxd5 cxd5 6.Bg5), isn't it?


I think that is an important question, and that the answer is not so clear.

After 1d4 Nf6 2c4 e6 3Nf3 d5 4Nc3 Bb4 5Bg5, we have the choice between opening the position immediately with 5...dxc and keeping it closed, at least for now, with 5...h6.

After 1d4 Nf6 2c4 e6 3Nf3 d5 4Nc3 Bb4, 5Bg5 seems natural enough, but there are important alternatives on move 5. Are the resulting positions more open, like the Vienna, more closed, like the Ragozin, or just plain different?

After 5e3, you're playing a Nimzo-Indian. This exact position can be reached after 1d4 Nf6 2c4 e6 3Nc3 Bb4 4Nf3 (perhaps intending the Kasparov variation after 4...c5 5g3) 4...d5 5e3. It is likely that the the game will transpose to a main line of the Rubenstein variation of the Nimzo. With the white queen bishop behind bars, it differs significantly from both the Ragozin and the Vienna.

5Qb3 c5 reminds me of the Spielmann variation of the Nimzo, 1d4 Nf6 2c4 e6 3Nc3 Bb4 4Qb3, but is probably distinct, perhaps with possibilities of transposition.

5Qa4ch Nc6 is categorized as a Ragozin. However after say, 6Bg5, black has the familiar choice between 6...dxc entering the Vienna, or 6...h6 leading to the Ragozin variation.

5Qa4ch 6e3 is a major line. As the game may remain closed for a while, it's no Vienna. However white's queen bishop is locked in behind the e pawn so we get a game quite unlike the main line of the Ragozin (1d4 Nf6 2c4 e6 3Nf3 d5 4Nc3 Bb4 5Bg5 h6 6Bxf6 or 6Bh4).

5cxd exd opens the position and, in that respect it resembles the Vienna a little. White usually plays 6Bg5 which can lead to a maze of variations. Black often responds with 6...h6 and the game looks like, and indeed can even transpose into, the Ragozin. Still, it will be a Ragozin where white has committed to play cxd at some point.

Pert considers with 5cxd exd 6Bg5 h6 7Bh4 Nbd7 and a later 8...g5, which has a definite Ragozin feel to it. Cornette continues with 5xcd exd 6Bg5 h6 7Bh4 and now either 7...0-0 or 7...Bf5. I don't know how he continues after 7...0-0. But after 7...Bf5, you get play that is very different from the Ragozin. The early exchange, 5cxd, has had consequences. ...Bf5 lines are looking up these days for black. Black could even play 6...Nbd7 and try to steer the game towards the Manhattan variation of the Queen's Gambit declined. Unfortunately for black, current theory seems to favor white in the Manhattan.
  
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Re: Vienna or Ragozin
Reply #4 - 08/10/21 at 11:27:54
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Ragozin, like Canadian Club, I have more Ragozin material, and anything that Fischer thought was playable has to have some merit.
  
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Re: Vienna or Ragozin
Reply #3 - 08/10/21 at 09:16:38
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I think both are reliable weapons, being the Vienna one sharper, I think. The Bg5 Ragozin line has to be learned anyways because of transpositions (like 5.cxd5 cxd5 6.Bg5), isn't it? So.... my vote went to Ragozin.

Personally, the more important factor to pick up one or the other is the available sources at my disposal at the moment. Sielecki's chessable Nimzo+Ragozin course and Pert's Play the Ragozin are my sources right now (so I have both lines covered), even if I am returning to Leningrad Dutch lately vs 1.d4 xD
  
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