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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) 2100 refute the dutch (Read 6063 times)
brabo
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Re: 2100 refute the dutch
Reply #16 - 12/06/21 at 06:43:38
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"This line :  1.d4 f5 2.Bg5 h6 3.Bh4 g5 4.e3 Nf6 5.Bg3 d6 6.h4 g4 7.Nc3 Nh5
which is interesting but if white plays 6.Nc3! you don't have any spare move. So you have to transpose into Bg7 line (if you play e6 he can play the h5! plan)"
1.d4 f5 2.Bg5 h6 3.Bh4 g5 4.e3 Nf6 5.Bg3 d6 6.Nc3 e6 7.h4 Rg8 is a better version for black than 6.h4 Rg8 as the Be2 antidote is less effective.

I've been playing the Dutch religiously for 28 years. I play different forms of the stonewall, the classical, the Rubinstein, the Leningrad and some other hybrids. Thanks to my huge experience and massive number of study-hours I know pretty well which works where. However I never recommend the Dutch to my students. Stay away from it. There are much better and easier openings. I am just married with it which maybe is the main-reason why I am stuck for ages at the 2300 level.

My last book of the Leningrad also states that black very often must be willing to play some very ugly looking positions. If this is not your cup of tea then the Dutch is probably not for you.
  
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Re: 2100 refute the dutch
Reply #15 - 12/05/21 at 23:26:44
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Sinn's hesitation over these positions would make a great advertisement for the chessable course. Chessforlife should link to his post, as a de facto testimonial. It's one thing to play creatively as black if your opponent will get confused. It's another thing if they actually know what to do.

The last time I tried to play the Classical Dutch, my opponent -- a London expert -- played as if it were a London (d4, Nf3, Bf4, e3, h3!?, etc.), and I didn't know what to do with my pawn weaknesses. I did swindle a win in the end, but vowed never again the Dutch. Of course it's still playable, but I know lots of playable openings....
  
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Re: 2100 refute the dutch
Reply #14 - 12/05/21 at 22:49:20
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Wasn't it Matthew Sadler who said something to the effect that the key to playing the Dutch was to accept the ludicrous weaknesses you've inflicted on yourself and just carry on regardless.

I guess it doesn't pay to be too fastidious in these lines. If it's a bit of a mess and playable, maybe that's the best you're going to get?
  

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Re: 2100 refute the dutch
Reply #13 - 12/05/21 at 21:41:45
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I checked the lines again and I don't know anymore.

The reason why I chose the leningrad in the first place was to be able to play for a win no matter what and to have a decent position in all variations.

I play the taimanov against e4 and it seems fine even in the Qf3 line. No difficult sideline. I couldn't play the najdorf because of Bb5!? against which to play for a win I'm forced into Nd7?! A move that leads to concrete problem and a subpar opening.

So why am I skeptic about the dutch :

1. d4 f5 2. Bg5 g6 3. Nc3 Bg7 4. Nf3 Nf6

* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
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* * * * * * * *
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*

This position is unavoidable in the g6 line.

It leads to this :

1. d4 f5 2. Bg5 g6 3. Nc3 Bg7 4. Nf3 Nf6 5. Bxf6 Bxf6 6. e4 fxe4 7. Nxe4 d5 8. Nxf6+ exf6

* * * * * * * *
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* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
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*

Not a very combative variation for black...

So I'm forced to play h6-g5

This variations : 1.d4 f5 2.Bg5 h6 3.Bh4 g5 4.e3 Bg7 5.Bg3 c5 6.c3 Qb6 7.Na3 cxd4 8.Nc4 Qe6 9.cxd4 Nf6 10.Ne5 O-O 11.Ngf3 Ne4 12.Rc1 d5 13.Nd2

Lead to this position :

* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
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*

I must admit, I don't understand the position. I don't know if I'll be able to fight for something with black or not.

This line :  1.d4 f5 2.Bg5 h6 3.Bh4 g5 4.e3 Nf6 5.Bg3 d6 6.h4 g4 7.Nc3 Nh5

leads to :
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
*

which is interresting but if white play 6.Nc3! you don't have any spare move. So you have to transpose into Bg7 line (if you play e6 he can play the h5! plan)

This line : 1.d4 f5 2.Bg5 h6 3.Bh4 g5 4.e3 Bg7 5.Bg3 c5 6.c3 Qb6 7.Na3 Nf6 8.Nc4 Qe6 9.Ne5 Nc6 10.Ngf3 Nxe5 11N.xe5

leads to :
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
*

Again I don't understand the position. I don't know if I can try to play for a win or if this is the type of position where you have so many weakness your only option is to hold the fort.

I don't know if this position is better than the Nd6 one from above either.

Finally this line : 1.d4 f5 2.Bg5 h6 3.Bh4 g5 4.e3 Nf6 5.Bg3 d6 6.h4 g4 7.Nc3 Bg7 8.Bc4 Nh5 9.Nge2 e6 10.Nf4 Nxf4 11.Bxf4 Nc6 12.Bg3 O-O 13.Qd2

leads to :

* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
*

which seem interresting but 12.f3! lead to these one :

1. d4 f5 2. Bg5 h6 3. Bh4 g5 4. e3 Nf6 5. Bg3 d6 6. h4 g4 7. Nc3 Bg7 8. Bc4 Nh5 9. Nge2 e6 10. Nf4 Nxf4 11. Bxf4 Nc6 12. f3 e5 13. dxe5 Nxe5 14. Qe2 c6 15. Bb3 Qe7 16. O-O-O Be6 17. fxg4 fxg4 18. Qd2 O-O-O 19. e4

* * * * * * * *
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* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
*

And again I don't know. Lots of weakness






  
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brabo
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Re: 2100 refute the dutch
Reply #12 - 12/05/21 at 06:00:42
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Sinn wrote on 12/04/21 at 23:45:32:
On h5 there's Fe6 - Ff7 lines with pressure on the h5 pawn if I recall correctly. That's what I always play in blitz.

True. In 2019 I thought it isn't enough which was het main-reason for me to switch to 4...Bg7 Recent regression-analysis shows maybe it is still playable for black.
  
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Re: 2100 refute the dutch
Reply #11 - 12/04/21 at 23:45:32
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On h5 there's Fe6 - Ff7 lines with pressure on the h5 pawn if I recall correctly. That's what I always play in blitz.
  
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Re: 2100 refute the dutch
Reply #10 - 12/04/21 at 23:21:25
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After any h4 by White answered by g4 by Black (it can be played this two advances in moves 6 or 7 or ...), in my mind h5 has to be played by White, isn't it? This Nh5 by Black seems too pleasant for us (I am Black in this positions).

I remember a Paco Vallejo pointed this out (White does not allow Nh5 playing h5 himself) as a common theme in his chess24 video series on the Leningrad.

Thx
  
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Re: 2100 refute the dutch
Reply #9 - 12/04/21 at 19:54:56
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1.d4 f5 2.Bg5 h6 3.Bh4 g5 4.e3 Bg7 5.Bg3 c5 6.c3 Qb6 7.Na3 Nf6 8.Nc4 Qe6 9.Ne5 Nc6 10.Ngf3 Nxe5 11N.xe5

There exists a top-correspondence game which continued with cxd4 from 2017 which was a comfortable draw for black.
My recent analysis shows an interesting alternative for black with 10...cxd4 which looks even easier.

In the lines with Nh5, my analysis of 2015 says Nxg3 without Nge2 is often playable in combination with a stonewall structure. Current topengines are less enthousiastic but it is definitely sufficient as a surprise-weapon to avoid any preparation.

1.d4 f5 2.Bg5 h6 3.Bh4 g5 4.e3 Nf6 5.Bg3 d6 6.h4 g4 7.Nc3 Bg7 8.Bc4 Nh5 9.Nge2 e6 10.Nf4 Nxf4 11.Bxf4 Nc6 12.Bg3 O-O 13.Qd2
I couldn't find any games with this line but Leela is not impressed and gives a6 with the idea if white stops b5 with a4 that 0-0-0 becomes dangerous. Next it switches to the center via 14...Kh7 15. Ne2 e5. Seems perfectly acceptable for black at first sight. This should be again more than enough for an OTB-game.
  
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Re: 2100 refute the dutch
Reply #8 - 12/04/21 at 18:48:33
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MNb wrote on 12/04/21 at 17:56:44:
Sinn wrote on 12/04/21 at 15:35:17:
If Black plays 2...e6?? like in the Classical Dutch, 3.Bxd8 wins the queen right away.

An astute observation. Here is another one: 1.d4 e6 2.Bg5?? does not win Her Black Majesty right away.
Serious, though. 2.e4, 2.Nc3 and 2.Bg5 have been the reason I've played 1...e6 and evt. 2...f5 for 25 years. As German author Rolf Schwarz remarked back in 1964: Holländer müssen auch gute Franzosen sein!"
In the 1980's I knew an amateur who played 1...d6 to avoid those 2nd move deviations.


Lol yes of course.

I'm not really afraid of Nc3 and e4. Computer evaluation are ok and you can easily play for the win. Of course the structure and the "feelling" will be different so I can understand trying to avoid those line.

Bg5 on the other hand is always tricky.

Talking about your move order I just can't play it I play the leningrad we don't play e6 lol.
  
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Re: 2100 refute the dutch
Reply #7 - 12/04/21 at 18:43:29
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brabo wrote on 12/04/21 at 16:42:58:
In the line  1.d4 f5 2.Bg5 h6 3.Bh4 g5 4.e3 Bg7 5.Bg3 c5 6.c3 Qb6 7.Na3 did you discuss 7..Nf6 which has been played by Leela in the superfinal of TCEC season 20 against Stockfish this year and which I recently also tried.


He talk about it but only gives : 7...Nf6 8.Nc4 Qe6 9.Ne5 Nc6 10.Ngf3 Nxe5 11N.xe5⩲

In your game  your opponent was out of prep as soon as you played it it seems.

I've just watched the leela game :

Apparently giving black time to play d6 to secure the c7 square for the queen was the problem with white setup. The queen on e6 seems misplaced in all lines.


brabo wrote on 12/04/21 at 16:42:58:
In 1.d4 f5 2.Bg5 h6 3.Bh4 g5 4.e3 Bg7 5.Bg3 c5 6.c3 Qb6 7.Na3 cxd4 8.Nc4 Qe6 9.cxd4 Nf6 10.Ne5 O-O 11.Ngf3 Ne4 12.Rc1 d5 13.Nd2 we can see in correspondence lately several games continued with 13...Nd6 which were all drawn.


He doesn't talk about Nd6, only Nd7 and Nxg3.

It seems like an alternative.

brabo wrote on 12/04/21 at 16:42:58:
My analysis of 2015 says 1.d4 f5 2.Bg5 h6 3.Bh4 g5 4.e3 Nf6 5.Bg3 d6 6.h4 Rg8 7.hxg5 hxg5 8.Be2 c6 is interesting which is a novelty. Looking at it with the current engines this looks a bit overoptimistic but still should be fine as a surprise.


Sure, only a dutch player would be prepared against that.

brabo wrote on 12/04/21 at 16:42:58:
In the line 1.d4 f5 2.Bg5 h6 3.Bh4 g5 4.e3 Nf6 5.Bg3 d6 6.h4 g4 7.Nc3 we see lately 7...Nh5 has been the most often played move in correspondence chess with all draws. Did you discuss that line?


He only say that this move order doesn't change anything. But I don't know about those correspondance games.

Maybe you can delay Bg7 and there's c6-b5 plan that could work. At early depth the computer isn't impressed.

brabo wrote on 12/04/21 at 16:42:58:
In the line 1.d4 f5 2.Bg5 h6 3.Bh4 g5 4.e3 Nf6 5.Bg3 d6 6.h4 g4 7.Nc3 Bg7 8.Bc4 I have played in 2019 8...e6 which I think is just playable.


I don't understand. It just transposes right ?

Because you can't tolerate a knight on f4, you have to play Nh5 at some point it seems.

brabo wrote on 12/04/21 at 16:42:58:
Anyway I think you made a good effort. I encountered this opening 6 times in classical games in only the last 2 years. As a fidemaster I was forced to study this opening deeply several times. So I tried to find several ways to play against this system to make any preparation of my opponents difficult.


Thanks for your answer there's a few line here that gave me hope! I was prepared to give up on my beloved opening.

  
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Re: 2100 refute the dutch
Reply #6 - 12/04/21 at 17:56:44
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Sinn wrote on 12/04/21 at 15:35:17:
If Black plays 2...e6?? like in the Classical Dutch, 3.Bxd8 wins the queen right away.

An astute observation. Here is another one: 1.d4 e6 2.Bg5?? does not win Her Black Majesty right away.
Serious, though. 2.e4, 2.Nc3 and 2.Bg5 have been the reason I've played 1...e6 and evt. 2...f5 for 25 years. As German author Rolf Schwarz remarked back in 1964: Holländer müssen auch gute Franzosen sein!"
In the 1980's I knew an amateur who played 1...d6 to avoid those 2nd move deviations.
  

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Re: 2100 refute the dutch
Reply #5 - 12/04/21 at 17:01:41
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Lol, I'm not the author of the course.

Let me check in the course everything you talked about 1 sec.

The author seem very reachable, I will try to contact him afterward.
  
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Re: 2100 refute the dutch
Reply #4 - 12/04/21 at 16:42:58
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In the line  1.d4 f5 2.Bg5 h6 3.Bh4 g5 4.e3 Bg7 5.Bg3 c5 6.c3 Qb6 7.Na3 did you discuss 7..Nf6 which has been played by Leela in the superfinal of TCEC season 20 against Stockfish this year and which I recently also tried see https://www.chessbomb.com/arena/2021-summer-prague-open/07-Stalmach_Richard-Froe...

In 1.d4 f5 2.Bg5 h6 3.Bh4 g5 4.e3 Bg7 5.Bg3 c5 6.c3 Qb6 7.Na3 cxd4 8.Nc4 Qe6 9.cxd4 Nf6 10.Ne5 O-O 11.Ngf3 Ne4 12.Rc1 d5 13.Nd2 we can see in correspondence lately several games continued with 13...Nd6 which were all drawn.

My analysis of 2015 says 1.d4 f5 2.Bg5 h6 3.Bh4 g5 4.e3 Nf6 5.Bg3 d6 6.h4 Rg8 7.hxg5 hxg5 8.Be2 c6 is interesting which is a novelty. Looking at it with the current engines this looks a bit overoptimistic but still should be fine as a surprise.

In the line 1.d4 f5 2.Bg5 h6 3.Bh4 g5 4.e3 Nf6 5.Bg3 d6 6.h4 g4 7.Nc3 we see lately 7...Nh5 has been the most often played move in correspondence chess with all draws. Did you discuss that line?

In the line 1.d4 f5 2.Bg5 h6 3.Bh4 g5 4.e3 Nf6 5.Bg3 d6 6.h4 g4 7.Nc3 Bg7 8.Bc4 I have played in 2019 8...e6 which I think is just playable.

Anyway I think you made a good effort. I encountered this opening 6 times in classical games in only the last 2 years. As a fidemaster I was forced to study this opening deeply several times. So I tried to find several ways to play against this system to make any preparation of my opponents difficult.


  
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Re: 2100 refute the dutch
Reply #3 - 12/04/21 at 15:39:47
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I must admit it's quite convincing.

I don't really see a way out of this.

Does it conflict with any of your analysis ?
  
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Re: 2100 refute the dutch
Reply #2 - 12/04/21 at 15:38:46
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Line after 1.d4 f5 2.Bg5 h6 :

[A80]
3...c5
1.d4 f5 2.Bg5 h6 3.Bh4 c5 4.e4 Qb6 5.exf5 Qxb2 6.Nd2 Nc6 7.Bd3 d5 8.dxc5 Bxf5 9.Rb1
Learn moves (7)
[A80]
3...g5 4...Nf6 5...Bg7
1.d4 f5 2.Bg5 h6 3.Bh4 g5 4.e3 Nf6 5.Bg3 Bg7 6.Nc3 O-O 7.Nge2 d6 8.h4 g4 9.Nf4
Learn moves (6)
[A80]
5...d6 6...g4 #1
1.d4 f5 2.Bg5 h6 3.Bh4 g5 4.e3 Nf6 5.Bg3 d6 6.h4 g4 7.Nc3 Bg7 8.Bc4 Nh5 9.Nge2 c6 10.Bb3 d5 11.f3 O-O 12.fxg4 fxg4 13.e4
Learn moves (8)
[A80]
6...g4 #2
1.d4 f5 2.Bg5 h6 3.Bh4 g5 4.e3 Nf6 5.Bg3 d6 6.h4 g4 7.Nc3 Bg7 8.Bc4 Nh5 9.Nge2 e6 10.Nf4 Nxf4 11.Bxf4 Nc6 12.Bg3 O-O 13.Qd2
Learn moves (4)
[A80]
6...g4 #3
1.d4 f5 2.Bg5 h6 3.Bh4 g5 4.e3 Nf6 5.Bg3 d6 6.h4 g4 7.Nc3 Bg7 8.Bc4 Nh5 9.Nge2 Nc6 10.Qd2 Na5 11.Bd3 e5 12.dxe5 dxe5 13.O-O-O Be6 14.Qe1 Qc8 15.f3
Learn moves (6)
[A80]
6...Rg8 #1
1.d4 f5 2.Bg5 h6 3.Bh4 g5 4.e3 Nf6 5.Bg3 d6 6.h4 Rg8 7.hxg5 hxg5 8.Be2 g4 9.Bd3 Nc6 10.Ne2 Bd7 11.Nbc3 Bg7 12.Nf4
Learn moves (6)
[A80]
6...Rg8 #2
1.d4 f5 2.Bg5 h6 3.Bh4 g5 4.e3 Nf6 5.Bg3 d6 6.h4 Rg8 7.hxg5 hxg5 8.Be2 Be6 9.c4 Bf7 10.Nc3 Nc6 11.d5
Learn moves (3)
[A80]
6...Rg8 #3
1.d4 f5 2.Bg5 h6 3.Bh4 g5 4.e3 Nf6 5.Bg3 d6 6.h4 Rg8 7.hxg5 hxg5 8.Be2 e6 9.c4 Ne4 10.Bh5+ Kd7 11.Ne2 c6 12.Nbc3
Learn moves (4)
[A80]
6...Rg8 #4
1.d4 f5 2.Bg5 h6 3.Bh4 g5 4.e3 Nf6 5.Bg3 d6 6.h4 Rg8 7.hxg5 hxg5 8.Be2 e6 9.c4 Nc6 10.Nc3 Qe7 11.Nf3 g4 12.Nd2 Bd7 13.d5 Ne5 14.Nb3
Learn moves (5)
[A80]
4...Bg7 #1
1.d4 f5 2.Bg5 h6 3.Bh4 g5 4.e3 Bg7 5.Bg3 c5 6.c3 Qb6 7.Na3 Qxb2 8.Nb5 Na6 9.Bc4
Learn moves (5)
[A80]
4...Bg7 #2
1.d4 f5 2.Bg5 h6 3.Bh4 g5 4.e3 Bg7 5.Bg3 c5 6.c3 Qb6 7.Na3 d5 8.Nb5 Na6 9.dxc5 Qxc5 10.Qh5+ Kf8 11.Nf3
Learn moves (4)
[A80]
4...Bg7 #3
1.d4 f5 2.Bg5 h6 3.Bh4 g5 4.e3 Bg7 5.Bg3 c5 6.c3 Qb6 7.Na3 cxd4 8.Nc4 Qe6 9.cxd4 Nf6 10.Ne5 O-O 11.Ngf3 Ne4 12.Rc1 d5 13.Nd2 Nxg3 14.hxg3 Bxe5 15.dxe5 g4 16.Nb3
Learn moves (9)
[A80]
4...Bg7 #4
1.d4 f5 2.Bg5 h6 3.Bh4 g5 4.e3 Bg7 5.Bg3 c5 6.c3 Qb6 7.Na3 cxd4 8.Nc4 Qe6 9.cxd4 Nf6 10.Ne5 O-O 11.Ngf3 Ne4 12.Rc1 d5 13.Nd2 Nd7 14.Nxe4 fxe4 15.Nc4 Nf6 16.Na5
Learn moves (3)
  
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