FreeRepublic wrote on 03/05/22 at 17:57:31:


This was covered ChessPublishing in February:
"After 10 Bxc6+ bxc6 11 Qe2+ Qxe2+ 12 Kxe2 we reach a key position:

Black is fine, but he is obviously hampered by the doubled isolated c-pawns, and I wondered whether it is possible to get any serious winning chances with Black. If White plays sensibly it is certainly difficult, but I really like Black's plan in Kowalczyk, P - Pniaczek, M." ...

FreeRepublic wrote on 03/05/22 at 17:57:31:


Jonathan Tait wrote on 03/05/22 at 18:37:53:

This is correct, but also incomplete. Hence your conclusion ("much more") is incorrect. After 10.Bxc6+ bxc6 11.Qe2+ also the drawing rate is 60%. As Chessbase is nice enough to calculate ELO performances I notice something more: White actually performs a tiny bit better t han expected on ELO (6 points). A more correct conclusion would be "many weaker players are courageous enough to run the risk of losing against stronger opponents instead of being sensible and take the draw by following Ghizdavu-Sydor from the Olympiade 1972".

FreeRepublic wrote on 03/05/22 at 17:57:31:


Maybe theoretically drawish. In practical play Black scores very well: around 60% OTB, which is much more than just a moral victory.

The Göring Gambit gives White enough compensation with best play after 1.e4 e5 2.d4 exd4 3.Nf3 Bb4+ 4.c3 dxc3 5.Nxc3 Nc6 6.Bc4 d6 7.Ng5, instead of the more popular 7.0-0 (7...Bxc3 8.bxc3 Nf6) and 7.Qb3 (7...Bxc3+ 8.bxc3 Qe7 9.0-0 Nf6, or 8.Qxc3 Qf6).  Markovich's analysis against the latter two lines still holds up well today.  Similarly, if 6...Bxc3+ 7.bxc3 d6 8.Ng5.  It's not as likely to give White any advantage with best play as the Scotch Game, but of course it can be very dangerous especially if Black is unprepared.

Black doesn't have to play 5...Nc6, e.g. there's 5...Bxc3+ 6.bxc3 and then 6...Ne7, but I don't think there is anything better than the transposition to the Göring.

3...Bc5 is a problem if White wants to get into a Scotch Game because 4.Nxd4 Nf6 may improve on the standard Scotch (after 3...Nc6 4.Nxd4 Black normally chooses between 4...Nf6 and 4...Bc5, but here Black has got in ...Nf6 and ...Bc5 and may be able to choose a better moment to play ...Nc6).  I haven't found a recent analysis of this, but Tim Harding looked at the line some time ago at ChessCafe and the line was also analysed in Danish Dynamite back in 2003, both concluded that Black equalises far more easily than in the regular Scotch.  It's probably best for White to head for a Scotch Gambit with 4.Bc4.  4.c3 aiming for transposition into ...Bc5 lines of the Göring is also playable, but Black has move order tricks that involve the possibility of ...Nd7 instead of ...Nc6, taking the sting out of plans with Bg5 and Nd5.

As MNb noted the transposition to the Petroff with 1.e4 e5 2.d4 exd4 3.Nf3 Nf6 is no problem.  White could also consider 4.Bc4 with an Urusov Gambit, though that allows transposition into the Two Knights with 4...Nc6 again.  

Ultimately it depends on whether getting into these Scotch/Two Knights and Göring Gambit lines is considered better than allowing a Petroff.  Indeed, Gawain Jones has recently released a book with extensive coverage of the Scotch Gambit/Two Knights/Giuoco Piano lines with d4 and meeting ...exd4 with e5, which have recently attracted the attention of some strong GMs.  I often play 1.e4 e5 2.d4 myself, but with the aim of getting into a Göring or a Scotch Gambit.  I don't find the arguments for using it as a route into a Scotch Game as convincing, although I note that in over half of my games, my opponents do continue with 2...exd4 3.Nf3 Nc6, allowing a Scotch with 4.Nxd4.

When devising a repertoire you should have your fastball opening and your curveball opening. But don't mix them up! The 4.Nxd4 Scotch is a main line try, if you pair it with 1.e4 e5 2.d4 exd4 3.Nf3 Bb4+ 4.c3 dxc3 5.Nxc3 then this means you must believe in the Göring Gambit to a similar degree as you believe in the 4.Nxd4 Scotch. Otherwise you are just gambling every game.

Suppose you play in round 1 of an open and the 2.d4 move order leads to a Göring Gambit. Okay you win that one, but in round 3 you are paired up and a stronger opponent answers your 1.e4 with 1...e5. Do you have the confidence to play it again?

I can't answer for you. On these pages Markovich showed a path to black advantage, but he also stated he only accepted the Göring Gambit in correspondence, OTB he declined with 4...d5.

Fllg wrote on 01/09/22 at 16:16:53:

Oh yes you're quite right and I suppose that trying for something else with 1.e4 e5 2.d4 exd4 3.Bc4 is no good it looks like because of 1.e4 e5 2.d4 exd4 3.Bc4 Nf6 4.Nf3 Nc6

Viable enough to get a serious mention as a occasional alternative for Black in Gawain Jones' recent Two Volume Coffee House Chess (its in volume 2.).

The gambit after 4 c3 etc seems to need at least some effort from black.