Latest Updates:
Page Index Toggle Pages: [1] 2 
Topic Tools
Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) New option for black (D50) (Read 1268 times)
FreeRepublic
Senior Member
****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 364
Location: Georgia
Joined: 06/08/17
Gender: Male
Re: New option for black (D50)
Reply #22 - 01/21/22 at 02:25:43
Post Tools
ChessPublishing Feb 2021 contains the game fragment:

1. d4 d5 2. c4 e6 3. Nc3 Nf6 4. Bg5 dc4!? 5. e3 a6 6. Bc4 c5 7. Nf3 b5 8. Bd3 Bb7 9. O-O Nbd7 10. Qe2 cd4 11. ed4 Be7 12. Rad1 O-O 13. Ne5 Nb6 from the game Benjamin - Nabatny. Glenn Flear writes "with a sequence that 'mixed and matched' several openings, finally settling on a classical-looking IQP scenario."

As Kylemeister noted, the game transposed at one point to the game Reshevsky-Lasker which started out as a Queen's Gambit Accepted. My research showed that transpositions are possible to the Orthodox (D60-D69) variation of the Queen's Gambit Declined.

I have looked at the Orthodox variation of the QGD from time to time and have never been sold on it. However Nigel Davies covers it in a book that I have, and Ntiflis in a book that I do not have. Davies goes over Capablanca's freeing maneuver, ...dxc Bxc4 ...Nd5, and also the Meran-esque ... dxc Bxc4 b5, which he describes as suitable if you are playing for more than the half point. There are more nuances of moves and more orders than I realized. Perhaps one improvement can make all the difference.

By way of contrast with the Orthodox QGD, Benjamin-Nabatny defers ...Be7 and ...0-0, pursuing queen-side play. Personally, I am programmed to castle. However, I realize that if black can steal a tempo or two to establish his chances on the queen side, it can pay off. It is not entirely novel as there are lines in Open Catalan where black does the same thing.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
FreeRepublic
Senior Member
****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 364
Location: Georgia
Joined: 06/08/17
Gender: Male
Re: New option for black (D50)
Reply #21 - 01/20/22 at 02:17:03
Post Tools
TonyRo wrote on 01/14/22 at 17:40:17:
If that is the game where Karpov wins a heavy piece IQP position after an early ...Nh5, trading dark-squared bishops, it is also mentioned in Christof's course.


I assume you mean his course on the Caro-Kan. I just looked at his free Chessable course on the Queen's Gambit Declined. His game #5 gives 1d4 d5 2c4 e6 3Nc3 Nf6 4Bg5 dxc 5e3 c5 6Bxc4 Nc3 and references his Caro-Kan course for analysis.

His games 1&2 also look familiar after some of the ChessPub forum analysis of the QGD exchange variation. O.K. which one of you is Christof Sielecki?  Wink

Nigel Davies in his QGD Move by Move book game 44 provides the following sequence:
1. d4 d5 2. c4 e6 3. Nc3 Nf6 4. Bg5 Nbd7 5. e3 c6 6. Nf3 Be7 7. Rc1 O-O 8. Bd3 dc4 9. Bc4 b5 10. Bd3 Bb7 11. O-O a6
He now proceeds with 12Ne4. However, 12Qe2 is reasonable looking, even if not as good.

A line previously mentioned here is:
1. d4 d5 2. c4 e6 3. Nc3 Nf6 4. Bg5 dxc4!? 5. e3 a6 6. Bc4 c5 7. Nf3 b5 8. Bd3 Bb7 9. O-O Nbd7 10. Qe2 Be7.
If 11. Rac1 O-O, we transpose to the above line. Probably better is 11Bxf6 Bxf6 12Ne4.

The Orthodox QGD and the line under discussion can transpose to one another. However it involves one sub-optimal, even if somewhat reasonable, move in each line.

1. d4 d5 2. c4 e6 3. Nc3 Nf6 4. Bg5 dxc4!? 5. e3 a6 is looking like a reasonable sequence to me. Otherwise, I would probably choose 4...Be7 intending to play the Tartakover variation.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
FreeRepublic
Senior Member
****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 364
Location: Georgia
Joined: 06/08/17
Gender: Male
Re: New option for black (D50)
Reply #20 - 01/19/22 at 22:48:06
Post Tools
Here's another transposition.

1. d4 d5 2. c4 e6 3. Nc3 Nf6 4. Bg5 dxc4!? 5. e3 a6 6. Bxc4 c5 7. Nf3 b5 8. Bd3 Bb7 9. O-O Nbd7 10. Qe2 Be7 (instead of 10...cxd, as chosen by Nabaty)

and

1. d4 d5 2. c4 e6 3. Nc3 Nf6 4. Bg5 Nbd7 5. e3 c6 6. Nf3 Be7 7. Bd3 (generally considered inexact with 7Rc1 or 7Qc2 being preferred) dc4 8. Bc4 b5 9. Bd3 a6 10. O-O c5 11. Qe2 Bb7
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
FreeRepublic
Senior Member
****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 364
Location: Georgia
Joined: 06/08/17
Gender: Male
Re: New option for black (D50)
Reply #19 - 01/19/22 at 05:28:55
Post Tools
kylemeister wrote on 01/18/22 at 18:35:13:
played e.g. by Reshevsky against Emanuel Lasker


Good catch, and a good game. One reason the two games transposed to the same position is that Lasker played ...cxd. After exd, Reshevsky was able to play 10Bg5. In the Benjamin-Nabaty game, white played Bg5 on move four.

After 1. d4 d5 2. c4 e6 3. Nc3 Nf6 4. Bg5 dxc4!? 5. e3 a6 6. Bc4 c5 7. Nf3 b5, 8Bb3, 8Bd3 and even 8Be2 have been played.

It seems to me that white benefits somewhat for having played the bishop to g5. On the other hand, I think the early development of the white knight to c3 is generally frowned upon in the queen's gambit accepted.

I think the continuation of the Benjamin-Nabaty game was reasonable: 8. Bd3 Bb7 9. O-O Nbd7 10. Qe2 cd4 11. ed4 Be7. Black had alternatives on move 10, though there is nothing wrong with trading pawns. In any case, I think black has a reasonable, and an interesting game.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
kylemeister
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 4729
Location: USA
Joined: 10/24/05
Re: New option for black (D50)
Reply #18 - 01/18/22 at 18:35:13
Post Tools
I note that the position in Benjamin-Nabaty after 9. 0-0 Nbd7 10. Qe2 cd 11. ed Be7 12. Rad1 0-0 was known a long time ago from the QGA line 3. Nf3 Nf6 4. e3 e6 5. Bxc4 c5 6. 0-0 a6 7. Qe2 b5 8. Bd3 cd 9. ed.  For example after 13. Ne5 as played by Benjamin, 13...Nd5 (instead of Nabaty's 13...Nb6) was played e.g. by Reshevsky against Emanuel Lasker and was given by Polugaevsky (in the 1970s) and Rizzitano (in the 2000s) as leading to an edge for Black.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
FreeRepublic
Senior Member
****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 364
Location: Georgia
Joined: 06/08/17
Gender: Male
Re: New option for black (D50)
Reply #17 - 01/18/22 at 16:14:18
Post Tools
FreeRepublic wrote on 01/18/22 at 13:50:57:
covered


I should have said "presented" as it was just a game fragment which ended on move 13. The final comment is interesting:

"Benjamin, J vs. Nabaty, T online rapid 2020, with a sequence that 'mixed and matched' several openings, finally settling on a classical-looking IQP scenario."

I think the entire approach is interesting and little unexplored.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
FreeRepublic
Senior Member
****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 364
Location: Georgia
Joined: 06/08/17
Gender: Male
Re: New option for black (D50)
Reply #16 - 01/18/22 at 13:50:57
Post Tools
The Benjamin-Nabaty game covered by ChessPublishing with 5e3 went in the direction of the queen's gambit accepted:

1. d4 d5 2. c4 e6 3. Nc3 Nf6 4. Bg5 dxc4!? 5. e3 a6 6. Bc4 c5 7. Nf3 b5 8. Bd3 Bb7

What distinguishes this from the normal QGA is the early Bg5. I don't know if it helps, hurts, or is neutral. I In any case, this would be a way to get QGA lines that look like the old main lines, while avoiding several options for white.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
FreeRepublic
Senior Member
****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 364
Location: Georgia
Joined: 06/08/17
Gender: Male
Re: New option for black (D50)
Reply #15 - 01/17/22 at 15:30:32
Post Tools
FreeRepublic wrote on 01/14/22 at 15:59:26:
John Watson annotated the game Grischuk-Dreev 2007. It started out as a Panov-Botvinik attack in the Caro-Kan. Adjusted to our move order:

1. d4 d5 2. c4 e6 3. Nc3 Nf6 4. Bg5 dc4!? 5. e3 c5 6. Bc4 cd4 7. ed4 Be7 8. Nf3 O-O 9. O-O Nc6


I was considering this from the Black side. The game could also have continued with 9...h6 10Bh4 Nc6.

I ran across this again, but from a white perspective, while looking at the Panov-Botvinik attack in the Caro-Kan:

1. e4 c6 2. d4 d5 3. ed5 cd5 4. c4 Nf6 5. Nc3 Nc6 6. Bg5 dc4 7.Bc4 h6 8. Bh4 e6 (8...Qxd4 has been recommended) 9. Nf3 Be7 10. O-O O-O

So if you don't like the first line for black, you may now have a weapon against the Caro-Kan as white!

For myself, I don't see this in such stark, binary-logic terms. Rather I think isolated queen pawn positions like this pose a challenge to both players. It may make sense to play this from both sides, neither side, the white side, or the black side, based upon personal preferences.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
FreeRepublic
Senior Member
****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 364
Location: Georgia
Joined: 06/08/17
Gender: Male
Re: New option for black (D50)
Reply #14 - 01/15/22 at 00:31:45
Post Tools
an ordinary chessplayer wrote on 01/14/22 at 22:10:54:
I bought the small ECO as the seed of an openings database, in order to have "some theory" covering all the ECO codes, to which I would then add my own researches.


Thanks for the response. Yes, I was thinking somewhat along those lines. I guess $39 for ECO A00-E99 is too good to be true!
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
an ordinary chessplayer
God Member
*****
Offline


I used to be not bad.

Posts: 1376
Location: Columbus, OH (USA)
Joined: 01/02/15
Re: New option for black (D50)
Reply #13 - 01/14/22 at 22:10:54
Post Tools
FreeRepublic wrote on 01/14/22 at 14:35:06:
I have considered buying and downloading the Small Encyclopedia of the Chess Openings:
https://sahovski.com/Small-Encyclopedia-of-Chess-Openings-3-DOWNLOAD-VERSION-p92....
Has anyone here had experience with that product?

There is this: https://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/chess/YaBB.pl?num=1456847361

I bought the small ECO as the seed of an openings database, in order to have "some theory" covering all the ECO codes, to which I would then add my own researches. I remember in a thread on a different topic (not the link above), kylemeister said it wasn't great. Before looking at it in detail I said it was good. I don't remember the order of those two comments. His comment made me go look at it in detail, I think I examined the Exchange Alekhine, and after that exercise I agreed with his assessment. I don't remember the details of what was wrong with it, but I do remember some of the games/game fragments quoted were not well played.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
an ordinary chessplayer
God Member
*****
Offline


I used to be not bad.

Posts: 1376
Location: Columbus, OH (USA)
Joined: 01/02/15
Re: New option for black (D50)
Reply #12 - 01/14/22 at 21:33:27
Post Tools
TonyRo wrote on 01/14/22 at 17:40:17:
If that is the game where Karpov wins a heavy piece IQP position after an early ...Nh5, trading dark-squared bishops, it is also mentioned in Christof's course.

Korchnoi - Karpov, m(9) 1981: https://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1068264

In other move orders, ...h7-h6 might be answered by retreating the g5-Bishop along the c1-h6 diagonal.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
TonyRo
God Member
*****
Online


I'm gonna crack your skull!

Posts: 1803
Location: Cleveland, OH
Joined: 11/26/07
Gender: Male
Re: New option for black (D50)
Reply #11 - 01/14/22 at 17:40:17
Post Tools
If that is the game where Karpov wins a heavy piece IQP position after an early ...Nh5, trading dark-squared bishops, it is also mentioned in Christof's course.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
kylemeister
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 4729
Location: USA
Joined: 10/24/05
Re: New option for black (D50)
Reply #10 - 01/14/22 at 17:01:40
Post Tools
One game that kind of IQP line reminds me of is Korchnoi-Karpov, Merano (m/9) 1981 -- a perhaps well-known anti-isolani game.  (I noticed that Neil McDonald makes reference to it in his latest book, incidentally.)
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
FreeRepublic
Senior Member
****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 364
Location: Georgia
Joined: 06/08/17
Gender: Male
Re: New option for black (D50)
Reply #9 - 01/14/22 at 15:59:26
Post Tools
John Watson annotated the game Grischuk-Dreev 2007. It started out as a Panov-Botvinik attack in the Caro-Kan. Adjusted to our move order:

1. d4 d5 2. c4 e6 3. Nc3 Nf6 4. Bg5 dc4!? 5. e3 c5 6. Bc4 cd4 7. ed4 Be7 8. Nf3 O-O 9. O-O Nc6

Watson says:
"Now we've transposed into a Queen's Gambit Accepted in which Black played ...c5 and ...cxd4 and White Bxc4 followed by Bg5. In general this isn't considered advantageous for White, but all these isolated pawn positions contain their dangers."

I looked game statistics from Chess Assistant (white to move!):  +339=266-222, 57%. I take 55% as typical. I also take 50% more wins for white than black as typical, and that is about what we have. Statistics will change with each subsequent move.

Grischuk won this particular game.

Just looking at the board (a last resort!), I see a rather typical isolated queen pawn position. Love-em or hate-em; it's up to you. I don't think there is a theoretical reason for either side to avoid this position.

This is just one possible continuation from 1. d4 d5 2. c4 e6 3. Nc3 Nf6 4. Bg5 dc4!? 5. e3
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
FreeRepublic
Senior Member
****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 364
Location: Georgia
Joined: 06/08/17
Gender: Male
Re: New option for black (D50)
Reply #8 - 01/14/22 at 14:35:06
Post Tools
Stigma wrote on 01/14/22 at 02:09:27:
I knew we had discussed this before, but it took some time to find the actual thread. Here it is:


Thanks for the links! I agree that the threads should be merged.

Perhaps 5e3 is more of a problem for black than the tempting 5e4. Comments mainly focused on 5e3 c5. Transpositions to other openings, on tempo, or a tempo up, or down, may be critical in evaluating this line. However, as noted, a mis-spent tempo is no favor.

The Feb 21 edition of ChessPublishing covered both moves, primarily 5e4. After 5e3, black continued with 5...a6 getting a queen's gambit accepted type of structure. That was a game fragment only.

kylemeister wrote on 01/13/22 at 19:20:45:
By the way, 4...dc appeared (and was portrayed as a decent move) in ECO and NCO in the '90s.  I wonder if there are earlier instances of that.

Thanks for the reminder to check ECO. Also, I don't have my ECO volumes on hand right now.

I have considered buying and downloading the Small Encyclopedia of the Chess Openings:
https://sahovski.com/Small-Encyclopedia-of-Chess-Openings-3-DOWNLOAD-VERSION-p92...
Has anyone here had experience with that product?
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Page Index Toggle Pages: [1] 2 
Topic Tools
Bookmarks: del.icio.us Digg Facebook Google Google+ Linked in reddit StumbleUpon Twitter Yahoo