kylemeister wrote on 03/20/22 at 23:45:31:

In fact I don't really remember any moves besides 5.h3, other than the trap line 1.e4 g6 2.d4 Bg7 3.Nc3 c6 4.Nf3 d5 5.Bf4 dxe4 6.Nxe4 Qa5+ 7.c3?? Qf5 -+

I see in my working database, at one time I looked at a few other moves: five games for 5.h3 and one game each for 5.exd5, 5.Qe2, 5.Be3, 5.Bf4.

A.Volchok - Z.Sarosy, corr Olympiad 1997
1.e4 c6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 g6 4.Nf3 Bg7 5.Bf4 dxe4 6.Nxe4 Qa5+ 7.Nc3 Bg4 8.Bc4 Nf6 9.h3 Qf5 10.hxg4 Qxf4 11.Bxf7+ Kf8 12.Be6 Nbd7 13.Qe2 Qc7 14.Ne5 1-0
Source: Chess Life (1997)

Leela/SF14 seem to vaguely like going 6 g4!? in that position instead of f4. 

Definitely not nonsense, not that white is short of 'not nonsense' approaches against the Pirc

That doesn't amount to much. After 1.e4 g6 2.d4 Bg7 3.h3 d6 4.Nc3 (or 4.Be3 Nf6 5.Nc3) Nf6 5.f4 is an Austrian Attack after wasting a tempo on a pretty useless move. At the other hand 5.Nf3 transposes to a well known and hardly feared variation.

an ordinary chessplayer wrote on 02/02/22 at 20:30:39:

One thing about 5. cxd5 cxd5 6. e5 is that (unlike some older sources) the 2020 ECO had it as leading to +=.  Evidently it was last addressed in Chess Publishing in May 2021 (Carlsen-Nakamura).

1.e4 g6 2.d4 Bg7 3.Nf3 is a good move order, provided you have an answer to 3...d6. I used to play 4.Be2 Nf6 (most other moves are answered by 5.c4) 5.Nc3 reaching the Classical Pirc, it's a little played out but still fine if white is not allergic to a draw. Shaw goes for 4.Bc4.

And yes, 3...c6 4.h3(!) d5 5.e5(!) is the idea. I played this a few times, but never got to play 6.c4 because my opponents kept playing 5...c5? 6.dxc5 Nc6 7.Bb5 (or worse). One guy played it against me three times! I know he was using Soltis's book on ...g6, but I looked and didn't see 5...c5? in there. It's a mystery where they got it. If 6.c4 happens I don't know how much white has objectively, but in this cross between a Modern, an Advance Caro-Kann, and a QGA (if black plays ...d5xc4), it just seems nice for white. Certainly more to play for than my then-usual Classical Pirc.

Another question here is 3.Nf3 c6 4.h3 4...d6. A Classical player will not mind, e.g. 4...d6 5.Be2 Nf6 6.Nc3. However a 4.Bc4 player might feel move ordered, e.g. 4...d6 5.Bc4 Nf6 6.Qe2 d5.

Isolani wrote on 02/02/22 at 16:33:49:

No, not that. 1.e4 g6 2.d4 Bg7 3.Nf3 c6 4.c4 d5 and now: 5.cxd5 cxd5 is a c3-Sicilian. 5.exd5 cxd5 is a Panov-Botvinnik Caro-Kann. 5.e5 Bg4 is what 4.h3 is designed to avoid. All of these are just a little bit wrong versions for white. For some reason the database statistics are terrible for black but I can't believe it.

TopNotch wrote on 02/02/22 at 00:36:14:

May be it's a naive question, but couldn't you play NF3 first?
J. Show recommends it and after 3..c6 then 4.h3 d5 5.e5 with ideas of  c4 at some point.
But may be more annoying for black would be 4.c4 wich looks a n inferior Averbakh with a pawn already on c6.
So black could be tempted to play d6 and to avoid the c6 and d5 stuff.
Does black have other decent choices?

In that case apologies — the “!?” is mine, not Bologan’s. To my patzer’s eye it seems surprising that, with one piece developed, Black’s best move should involve putting the queen on the white bishop’s diagonal. Shows how much I know. For what it’s worth, Soltis recommended 5…dxe4.

Mtal wrote on 02/01/22 at 20:18:05:


I was doing a lot of maintenance on my White repertoire recently, in preparation for a return to tournament chess, and was genuinely surprised at how difficult it was to refute the Caro-Modern: 1.e4 g6 2.d4 Bg7 3.Nc3 c6 4.Nf3 d5 5.h3 Nf6!?    

Perhaps you should consider taking a second look at this c6, d5 stuff, seems to be quite underrated if you ask me, and could be an effective weapon if used judiciously.

Now that is dedication.

I was referring to 1.e4 g6 2.d4 Bg7 3.Nc3 c6 4.Be3, when  4...d6 is recommended by Lakdawala and Norwood but "complete rubbish against 5.f4!" according to Tiger. Soltis and Bologan recommend 4...d5 anyway, when I don't much like Black's position after 5.f3 -- though Bologan analyses 5...Qb6!?, with which he has a big plus score.

Tiger's books are great but he doesn't really go in for the ...c6 stuff. Nor, I think, does The Modern Defence: Move by Move. It's hard to recommend a book that does. Opening Repertoire: The Modern Defence is shockingly bad even for Lakdawala: it has so many huge holes that it's grossly misleading for Everyman to call it a repertoire. Some of the lines in Marin and Kornev's books on the Pirc include an early ...c6, but not against the Austrian Attack.

The best sources I could find are:
Soltis, Black to Play and Win with 1...g6 (1988)
Norwood, Winning with the Modern (1994)
Speelman & McDonald, Modern Defence (2000)
Bologan, The Modern Pirc (ChessBase)

Bologan is probably the best: he really knows his way around the ...c6 stuff. So does Norwood, but his coverage is distinctly thin.

I eventually gave up trying to play ...c6 and ...d5 against 4.f4 because I realised that very few of my opponents play 4.f4 anyway. Most of them play 4.Be3, and in that case I'd rather not be committed to ...c6.

Hi all, I wanted to read up on the modern defence with c6. I like those positions vs the Austrian attack. Lol I probably should read up on the other lines too. Anyway I was just wondering during how Opening rep the modern defence vs modern move by move. It's hard to tell by looking at the samples, but they seem to cover the same thing (oh but they give different lines vs d4 it seems). Well if anyone has read both by chance please let me know hiw they are, any differences, or maybe they if the complement each other. I guess also, since I like c6, anything else out there I might want to check out? Thanks.