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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Re: 3...d6 getting a bit of traction from super GM's (Read 7357 times)
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Re: 3...d6 getting a bit of traction from super GM's
Reply #29 - 04/17/23 at 15:45:05
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Tricky Repertoire against the Italian (1h and 40min Video Running Time) GM Mihail Marin     Wednesday, November 2, 2022

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Re: 3...d6 getting a bit of traction from super GM's
Reply #28 - 02/16/22 at 21:20:44
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Well I think that sometimes not showing your cards takes a backseat, and 7...c6 "forces" 8.Nc3 unless White doesn't mind exd5 in response to ...cxd5, and things that you mentioned that I mentioned too i.e. ...a5, maneuvering to ...Nc5, and an eventual ...f5 are still on the table.  As for ...Bg5 perhaps that is not so necessary any more, but ...Bg4 is certainly on the table.  I'll admit it's personal taste on my part, I like the freer position that results after ...c6 and ...cxd5.   

Why I want to play 3...d6 if White can cramp Black with d4: I like the surprise value in general, 4.c3 f5!? and 4.Nc3 c5!?, and I think I will become a better chess player if I learn to play cramped positions.  But if I can I will try to exchange my way out of the cramped position, if it doesn't hurt my position overall, and I don't think ...c6 does
« Last Edit: 02/16/22 at 22:31:21 by George Jempty »  
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Re: 3...d6 getting a bit of traction from super GM's
Reply #27 - 02/16/22 at 19:56:06
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George Jempty wrote on 02/16/22 at 17:30:50:
So after a line that's being discussed, 3...d6 4.0-0 Be7 5.d4 Nf6 6.d5 Nb8 what is the opinion of responding 7.Re1 with 7...c6.  I can find no high level games but by letting SF14 churn a while I'm getting an idea of the plans.  One advantage of 8.Nc3 now is that White can reply to 8...cxd5 with 9.Nxd5.  But on 8.Bd3 for instance after 8...cxd5 9.exd5 0-0 Black can plan to counter White's Q-side play with ...a5 and maneuvering to ...Nc5, and then he can consider completing his develop with ...Bg4 and/or moving his ...Nf6 somewhere when ...f5 isn't even a "break" anymore.

There is no real guidance from high-level games after ...c6 especially when combined with an immediate ...cxd5


Feels a bit weird to me to play c6 immediately, unless it's connected with a very concrete idea. I would rather start with some obviously useful moves like O-O and a5, getting a knight on the way to c5 with either Na6 or Nd7, and seeing what white does. You can then decide accordingly whether you're playing for f5, c6 of Bg5. It seems to me with 7...c6 you just show your hand really early.
  
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Re: 3...d6 getting a bit of traction from super GM's
Reply #26 - 02/16/22 at 17:30:50
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So after a line that's being discussed, 3...d6 4.0-0 Be7 5.d4 Nf6 6.d5 Nb8 what is the opinion of responding 7.Re1 with 7...c6.  I can find no high level games but by letting SF14 churn a while I'm getting an idea of the plans.  One advantage of 8.Nc3 now is that White can reply to 8...cxd5 with 9.Nxd5.  But on 8.Bd3 for instance after 8...cxd5 9.exd5 0-0 Black can plan to counter White's Q-side play with ...a5 and maneuvering to ...Nc5, and then he can consider completing his develop with ...Bg4 and/or moving his ...Nf6 somewhere when ...f5 isn't even a "break" anymore.

There is no real guidance from high-level games after ...c6 especially when combined with an immediate ...cxd5
  
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Re: 3...d6 getting a bit of traction from super GM's
Reply #25 - 02/16/22 at 01:58:24
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Rasblossom wrote on 02/15/22 at 22:40:48:
an ordinary chessplayer wrote on 02/15/22 at 15:14:51:
Rasblossom wrote on 02/15/22 at 12:00:41:
And i would think white is really supposed to make use of his queenside pawns to play on that side, by getting c4 In asap.

So I don't get why 7.Nc3 is the first line being considered...

Yes, indeed. In the Cafferty game quoted by George Jempty white did just about everything a little bit wrong. In a similar way I used to win easily against the old computers by playing the old Steinitz Defense to the Spanish -- they would play d4-d5, generate zero queenside play, and inevitably get mated on g2. Those days are gone, now the computers play with me like a chew toy.


That's funny, I have similar fond recollections of bullying a vintage Mephisto electronic board in this same line (roles would quickly reverse in any open position of course). 

To this day it still feels computers are prone to go "I got a pawn on the 5th rank, a few developed pieces, it's +=". As shown by my stockfish steadfast belief in 7.Nc3 here.


Hah I just bought an old radio shack electronic board for practicing blindfold against, even today's weak engines, such as ToyTarrasch, are too good for me, at least at blindfold.  When I played them sighted in the past, I never one as either of you has described, but I do remember sacrificing a pawn on the wing away from its king, and then winning with an attack on the king.
  
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Rasblossom
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Re: 3...d6 getting a bit of traction from super GM's
Reply #24 - 02/15/22 at 22:40:48
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an ordinary chessplayer wrote on 02/15/22 at 15:14:51:
Rasblossom wrote on 02/15/22 at 12:00:41:
And i would think white is really supposed to make use of his queenside pawns to play on that side, by getting c4 In asap.

So I don't get why 7.Nc3 is the first line being considered...

Yes, indeed. In the Cafferty game quoted by George Jempty white did just about everything a little bit wrong. In a similar way I used to win easily against the old computers by playing the old Steinitz Defense to the Spanish -- they would play d4-d5, generate zero queenside play, and inevitably get mated on g2. Those days are gone, now the computers play with me like a chew toy.


That's funny, I have similar fond recollections of bullying a vintage Mephisto electronic board in this same line (roles would quickly reverse in any open position of course). 

To this day it still feels computers are prone to go "I got a pawn on the 5th rank, a few developed pieces, it's +=". As shown by my stockfish steadfast belief in 7.Nc3 here.
« Last Edit: 02/16/22 at 01:40:00 by Rasblossom »  
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Re: 3...d6 getting a bit of traction from super GM's
Reply #23 - 02/15/22 at 21:55:03
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Rasblossom wrote on 02/15/22 at 21:25:33:
Something like 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 a6 4. Ba4 d6 5. c3 Bd7 6. d4 Nf6 (admittedly both g6 and Ne7 are more common) 7. O-O Be7 8. Re1 O-O 9. d5 Nb8. Although in this and related positions white usually decides to exchange the bishops on d7 rather than retreating, leading to a different flavour of position (therefore an ordinary chessplayer's comparison with the old indian is probably more to the point, I have been bringing up the modern steinitz simply because it's what I am familiar with).


George Jempty wrote on 02/15/22 at 15:18:01:
I'm coming to the conclusion you may be correct and that 7.Bd3 is not quite as good as alternatives such as 7.Nc3 or 7.Re1 may be more critical, but after 7.Bd3 Nbd7 I stand by my assertion that 8.c4?! compounds the issue as after ...Nxd3 the ...f5 breaks seems that much easier to achieve and may be completely equalizing.


To be clear what I actually meant with my longwinded post is that I dislike 7.Nc3 on general grounds, and as white I would rather play any move that allows c4 before Nc3, be it either 7.Bd3 or 7.Re1. But I don't there is anything fundamentally wrong with black's position in any case.



Thanks, in the Modern Steinitz I go for the Siesta variation 5...f5 after 5. c3, which is why I find Dubov's 4...f5 intriguing after 3.Bc4 d6 4.c3 (and also why I'm not familiar with anything like the variation you posted)
  
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Re: 3...d6 getting a bit of traction from super GM's
Reply #22 - 02/15/22 at 21:25:33
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Something like 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 a6 4. Ba4 d6 5. c3 Bd7 6. d4 Nf6 (admittedly both g6 and Ne7 are more common) 7. O-O Be7 8. Re1 O-O 9. d5 Nb8. Although in this and related positions white usually decides to exchange the bishops on d7 rather than retreating, leading to a different flavour of position (therefore an ordinary chessplayer's comparison with the old indian is probably more to the point, I have been bringing up the modern steinitz simply because it's what I am familiar with).

Edit: Alekhine played quite a few games in this sort of structure, with either colour. Several are in his classic best game collection. For example game 119 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 a6 4. Ba4 d6 5. c3 Bd7 6. d4 Nf6 7. Qe2 Be7 8. O-O O-O 9. d5 Nb8 Kashdan-Alekhine  (0-1 53)

Or in game 68 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 a6 4.Ba4 d6 5.O-O Nf6 6.c3 Bd7 7.d4 Be7 8.d5 Nb8 9.Bc2, this time with Alekhine on the white side (1-0, 47). 


George Jempty wrote on 02/15/22 at 15:18:01:
I'm coming to the conclusion you may be correct and that 7.Bd3 is not quite as good as alternatives such as 7.Nc3 or 7.Re1 may be more critical, but after 7.Bd3 Nbd7 I stand by my assertion that 8.c4?! compounds the issue as after ...Nxd3 the ...f5 breaks seems that much easier to achieve and may be completely equalizing.


To be clear what I actually meant with my longwinded post is that I dislike 7.Nc3 on general grounds, and as white I would rather play any move that allows c4 before Nc3, be it either 7.Bd3 or 7.Re1. But I don't there is anything fundamentally wrong with black's position in any case.

« Last Edit: 02/15/22 at 22:26:19 by Rasblossom »  
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Re: 3...d6 getting a bit of traction from super GM's
Reply #21 - 02/15/22 at 20:09:45
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I'd appreciate if somebody could provide me the move order in the Modern Steinitz (or Steinitz) that results in similar positions, I play the former in a different way that doesn't reach them.  Also the move order for the similar positions to the Old Indian, thanks.
  
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Re: 3...d6 getting a bit of traction from super GM's
Reply #20 - 02/15/22 at 15:18:01
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Rasblossom wrote on 02/15/22 at 12:00:41:
@George Jempty

My very primitive take as a washed out 2000 rated player would be that with or without stockfish black main ideas are "short castle knight somewhere, f5" and Be7-g5 to get rid of the bad Bishop; standard d5 pawn chain stuff.

And i would think white is really supposed to make use of his queenside pawns to play on that side, by getting c4 In asap.

So I don't get why 7.Nc3 is the first line being considered as I would have thought then black should be able to get f5 in and live happily, while I'm not clear on what white is going for. Is there a specific idea with 7.Nc3 I am missing? Or is it simply stockfish first line?

I would have thought the investigation should start from the various ways for white to get the Bishop out of the way.

7.Bb5+? Is not it as black will not be nice enough to play Bd7 and go 7...c6 instead.

7.Bd3 is most natural but Nd7-c5 seems annoying (and I don't think 8.c4 gets a ?!, as its the only reasonable follow up from Bd3, I would feel if c4 doesn't work then its Bd3 who is a ?!).

So my initial instinct with white would be 7.Re1 intending Bf1 and c4 with queenside pawn play to follow. Playing around on a board for a bit it feels similar to the aforementioned d5 MS Ruy positions, except white hasn't managed to trade off the light square bishops (blacks good bishop) and ended up wasting some time with the bf1-c4-f1 pendulum. I can't imagine black is worse of that in those ruy positions, which to my knowledge are seen as reasonable enough for black.


When I first started looking at lines with d5/...Nb8 I recognized that Black's main plans would be:
  • ...f5 break
  • ...c6 break
  • playing for ....Bg5


I'm coming to the conclusion you may be correct and that 7.Bd3 is not quite as good as alternatives such as 7.Nc3 or 7.Re1 may be more critical, but after 7.Bd3 Nbd7 I stand by my assertion that 8.c4?! compounds the issue as after ...Nxd3 the ...f5 breaks seems that much easier to achieve and may be completely equalizing.  Yes I am largely relying on SF14 and doing my own extrapolating.  BTW after 8.c4 White's advantage is down to around just +0.1 or +0.2 but after 8.Re1 and then for instance 8...Nc5 9.Bb5+ the advantage is around +0.4 or higher.
  
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Re: 3...d6 getting a bit of traction from super GM's
Reply #19 - 02/15/22 at 15:14:51
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Rasblossom wrote on 02/15/22 at 12:00:41:
And i would think white is really supposed to make use of his queenside pawns to play on that side, by getting c4 In asap.

So I don't get why 7.Nc3 is the first line being considered...

Yes, indeed. In the Cafferty game quoted by George Jempty white did just about everything a little bit wrong. In a similar way I used to win easily against the old computers by playing the old Steinitz Defense to the Spanish -- they would play d4-d5, generate zero queenside play, and inevitably get mated on g2. Those days are gone, now the computers play with me like a chew toy.

365chess.com does not require an account, but it's not easy to link to individual games. I have attached the Grund - Romanov game.
  

GrundRomanov2003.pgn ( 0 KB | 93 Downloads )
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Re: 3...d6 getting a bit of traction from super GM's
Reply #18 - 02/15/22 at 14:41:02
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an ordinary chessplayer wrote on 02/15/22 at 14:17:22:
George Jempty wrote on 02/15/22 at 05:06:13:
Upon closer inspection even in the line 4.0-0 Be7 5.d4 Nf6 6.d5 Nb8 7.Bd3 a future ...f5 can be a factor e.g. if White follows the same erroneous path as Anand did against Ivanchuk: 7...0-0 8.c4?! Nc5

You should be more careful when quoting games, 8...Nc5 is not possible there. Did Ivanchuk play 7...Nbd7. ?

d4-d5, ...Nc6-b8, Bc4-d3, c2-c4 is entirely standard, this was Reinfeld's recommendation against the Hungarian (1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Be7 4.d4 d6 5.d5 Nb8 6.Bd3 Nf6 7.c4 Nbd7 8.Nc3) and is generally considered to be +=. The game becomes an Old Indian where black is a tempo down. But it seems the insertion of O-O and ...Ng8-f6 makes this += harder for white achieve. It's one of those peculiar instances in the closed games where castling is a "loss of tempo".

It's a little different if black hasn't played ...Be7. There d4-d5, ...Nc6-e7, Bc4-d3, ...Ne7-g6 reaches an Old Indian where black is a tempo up. Although it's probably still += , every tempo helps. The ...Nb8-d7-f8-g6 plan is not considered the best, although it's not terrible if white has done O-O.


Yes you are correct Ivanchuk played 7...Nc5, the way I gave the line had Black castling twice.  Thanks for the comparisons to the Old Indian.  At first I wasn't keen on the possibility of facing d5 but I'm feeling more and more confident that Black can come close to equalizing.
  
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Re: 3...d6 getting a bit of traction from super GM's
Reply #17 - 02/15/22 at 14:17:22
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George Jempty wrote on 02/15/22 at 05:06:13:
Upon closer inspection even in the line 4.0-0 Be7 5.d4 Nf6 6.d5 Nb8 7.Bd3 a future ...f5 can be a factor e.g. if White follows the same erroneous path as Anand did against Ivanchuk: 7...0-0 8.c4?! Nc5

You should be more careful when quoting games, 8...Nc5 is not possible there. Did Ivanchuk play 7...Nbd7. ?

d4-d5, ...Nc6-b8, Bc4-d3, c2-c4 is entirely standard, this was Reinfeld's recommendation against the Hungarian (1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Be7 4.d4 d6 5.d5 Nb8 6.Bd3 Nf6 7.c4 Nbd7 8.Nc3) and is generally considered to be +=. The game becomes an Old Indian where black is a tempo down. But it seems the insertion of O-O and ...Ng8-f6 makes this += harder for white achieve. It's one of those peculiar instances in the closed games where castling is a "loss of tempo".

It's a little different if black hasn't played ...Be7. There d4-d5, ...Nc6-e7, Bc4-d3, ...Ne7-g6 reaches an Old Indian where black is a tempo up. Although it's probably still += , every tempo helps. The ...Nb8-d7-f8-g6 plan is not considered the best, although it's not terrible if white has done O-O.
  
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Re: 3...d6 getting a bit of traction from super GM's
Reply #16 - 02/15/22 at 12:00:41
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@George Jempty

My very primitive take as a washed out 2000 rated player would be that with or without stockfish black main ideas are "short castle knight somewhere, f5" and Be7-g5 to get rid of the bad Bishop; standard d5 pawn chain stuff.

And i would think white is really supposed to make use of his queenside pawns to play on that side, by getting c4 In asap.

So I don't get why 7.Nc3 is the first line being considered as I would have thought then black should be able to get f5 in and live happily, while I'm not clear on what white is going for. Is there a specific idea with 7.Nc3 I am missing? Or is it simply stockfish first line?

I would have thought the investigation should start from the various ways for white to get the Bishop out of the way.

7.Bb5+? Is not it as black will not be nice enough to play Bd7 and go 7...c6 instead.

7.Bd3 is most natural but Nd7-c5 seems annoying (and I don't think 8.c4 gets a ?!, as its the only reasonable follow up from Bd3, I would feel if c4 doesn't work then its Bd3 who is a ?!).

So my initial instinct with white would be 7.Re1 intending Bf1 and c4 with queenside pawn play to follow. Playing around on a board for a bit it feels similar to the aforementioned d5 MS Ruy positions, except white hasn't managed to trade off the light square bishops (blacks good bishop) and ended up wasting some time with the bf1-c4-f1 pendulum. I can't imagine black is worse of that in those ruy positions, which to my knowledge are seen as reasonable enough for black.
  
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Re: 3...d6 getting a bit of traction from super GM's
Reply #15 - 02/15/22 at 05:06:13
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an ordinary chessplayer wrote on 02/15/22 at 04:41:46:
I have played the Paris Defense quite a bit, more often from the Philidor move order, 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 d6 3.Bc4 Nc6!?, where it seems to confuse 3.Bc4 players. 

Rodzynski - Alekhine, Paris 1913: https://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1011850

Most strong players play 4.c3 against me, which doesn't worry me at all. I go 4...g6!?. A good source there is Taylor/Hayward (2009) Play the Ponziani (1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.c3 d6 4.Bc4 is their move order). Most weak players play 4.Nc3, which also doesn't worry me. I go 4...Be6!?. The critical move is 4.d4 and if 4...exd4 5.c3! I have only faced this once and replied 5...d3!?. I ended up losing, but not because of the opening, where I was quite close to equality.

Most Philidor sources don't cover 3...Nc6, e.g. Bauer/2006 gives "?!" and says it is out of scope. Two Philidor sources that cover it are Heiling/1987 and Cermak/1993. They give different answers to 4.d4. Heiling gives only 4...exd4, quoting Glek - Dreev which went 5.c3 Na5!?. I'm not sure but I suspect Heiling's notes to that game are taken from the Informator. Cermak gives only 4...Bg4, which is not my cup of tea, and seems to have mostly cribbed from ECO. Cermak's book is interesting because he sometimes gives original analysis, unfortunately many of his suggestions are not correct. His engine in 1993 was not strong at all.

Glek - Dreev, SSSR 1985: https://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1038882

I did notice the new "trend" 4...Nf6 but haven't had time to analyze it closely. The dry line with 5.dxe5 wouldn't bother me, defending a slight white initiative is par for the course in the Philidor.


I'm interested in new/different approaches to 4.c3 (Dubov's 4...f5) and against 4.Nc3 then 4...Na5 which I found with an engine but it makes sense, White has made it difficult for himself to control d4 so Black would like to play ...c5 there was a game with it Grund-Romanov (a couple of 2400s) in 2002, it's not on chessgames but is on 365chess which requires an account but I've gotten maybe one email from them in a decade.

Speaking of ...f5, in another critical line 4.0-0 Be7 5.d4 Nf6 6.d5 Nb8 I've found a possible path, of course depending on White's moves, to a freer position and possible equality for Black after ...0-0, ...Kh8, ...Ng8 and ...f5 but I have lots more investigating to do, I've been looking into it after 7.Nc3 but it might not be so well suited after 7. Bd3 (as played in the blitz game Anand-Ivanchuk from 2017)

BTW I learned about the Alekhine game from the Seirawan book "Take My Rooks" but he had a simpler path to a winning position at one point with the simple ...Be6 (which is sometimes a good move in general in the Paris Defense e.g. against 4.h3?! which I've seen a lot as an amateur)

EDIT: So I found the idea of 7.Nc3 0-0 and the ...Kh8, ...Ng8 and ...f5 by tinkering around with SF14 but interestingly I've now found a game lost by Bernard Cafferty playing White against this idea in the 1959 British Championship (Golombek, Haygarth and Penrose tied for first): https://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1161308

Upon closer inspection even in the line 4.0-0 Be7 5.d4 Nf6 6.d5 Nb8 7.Bd3 a future ...f5 can be a factor e.g. if White follows the same erroneous path as Anand did against Ivanchuk: 7...0-0 8.c4?! Nc5 9.Nc3 Nxd3 10.Qxd3 O-O 11.Nd2?! Nh5 12.g3 g6 13.b4 f5, I guess that White allowing the exchange of his bad LSB made it easier for Black to acheive ...f5, which is also in the offing after 11.c5 and then either 11...Nh5 or 11...Ne8.  Against 11.Ne1 Black plays 11...Nfd7 to respond to 12.f4?! exf4 13.Bxf4 with 13...Bf6.  Against 12.Be3 Black can play 12...Bg5, and if instead 12. Qd2 to prevent that, or 12.Qe2, again Black has 12...f5
« Last Edit: 02/15/22 at 06:12:41 by George Jempty »  
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