Nernstian59 wrote on 02/14/22 at 20:45:38:


Thanks for weighing in about the name and I agree with you that Punish the Provateurs has a very pleasant ring to it. Regarding the chessable thread and the analysis you asked about. I am not sure if the below excerpt contains what you were looking for, but it does at least give me an excuse to share some of the more entertaining drama that sometimes occurs on other forums:

Re-Review posted by mrkopp entitled Best resource on the London so far? referring to the chessable course The London Attack: An Ambitious Repertoire by IndrekR.

mrkopp - You can't play Bf4, e3, Nf3, c3 against everything black does. You actually have to learn stuff. This will come as quite a shock to 90% of London players (dis intended).

Toppy - Actually you pretty much can and many amateurs do, it just means you will get nothing out of the opening except maybe a playable position with little to do middlegame wise. Nevertheless it provides a comfy security blanket for amateur players terrified of theory, tactical confrontation and the prospect of blundering pawns and pieces left and right early in the game. Secretly they play this move sequence Bf4, e3, Nf3, c3 hoping that their opponent leaves something hanging along the way but often when that doesn't happen they have no clue what to do next.

The London has lost all surprise value, it is now one of the most written about and deeply analysed openings there is. A much better and more potent weapon at amateur level is the 'Improved Stonewall Attack' with the dark squared bishop outside the pawn chain. if you can master this system and combine it with a couple other complimentary Dpawn Weapons you could become a deadly force at amateur and club level.


Enter Osmosis - again i disagree with you, you just keep assuming what amateur players will do and that they all follow the same moves regardless of what the opponent does, sounds to me like you struggle with the London System and so you don't like it, may i remind you that you too are an amateur ! give it a break mate, either learn the London System and understand it or stop making pointless comments about it.

Toppy - The London System is fine if played flexibly, but most novices like it out of Laziness and the desire to play the same way against everything. Such an approach is very limiting leads to frustration and an overall lack of chess improvement.

As a King's Indian player myself I don't struggle against the London at all, in fact I welcome it. KID players have bigger concerns than the Jobava London which is the only form of the London that will even make a KID player pay any attention to what you are doing.

Some feel more secure to hire a coach at $50.00 an hour to tell you the same thing I'm offering for free. If you are a novice and you feel compelled to study openings, then start with the Open Games, you will thank me later.

Osmosis - Just shows how closed minded you really are, every London player combines the jobava London with the London system that's just standard practice these days and when I play the London system I am very happy to see anyone play the KID because I immediately know I'm going to have an easy game with a crushing attack. The jobava London is all part of the London system that's how it's played, the fact you don't know it proves you are living in the past.
Nobody is going to pay for your sad outdated chess lessons dude you failed to update yourself.

Toppy - A student of mind actually bought the course, so at least now I can share my thoughts more concretely.

This course is definitely not the best resource out there on the London, having said that it is not a bad place to start for club players as it is well structured with the ideas explained in a logical and thematic way. Naturally as a KID player myself I was curious how deeply he would explore these de rigueur 5.h4 lines which every London Course recommends, but this approach no longer carries any shock value and black has more than one reliable way to deal with it.

The other line I was curious about was 1.d4 Nf6 2.Bf4 c5 [I actually consider 2.Bf4 against 2...Nf6 as an inferior London despite it being played by strong players, but perhaps this is just a matter of taste although it is noteworthy that Jobava himself never used this move order to reach the system that now bears his name] 3.e3 Qb6! The critical line after which objectively Black is at least equal or slightly better if White avoids a draw by repetition.

I didn't check 1.d4 d5 yet, since I rarely play either side of this position, but I am aware Grandelius has suggested a simple setup for Black involving 2.Bf4 e6 3.e3 Bd6 intending b6 with Bb7 or Ba6 to follow and sometimes Ne7 depending on circumstances.

Let me conclude with a few sample lines that illustrate Black's
resources:

A) 1.d4 Nf6 2.Bf4 c5 3.e3 Qb6 4.Nf3 Qxb2 5.Nbd2 Nc6 6.dxc5 Qc3![6...e6 is too co-operative, the priority is to ensure that Black's Queen has a safe way back] 7.Rb1 Qxc5 8.Rb5 Qc3 9.Bd3 d6 10.0-0 Na5 with equality or better.

B) 1.d4 Nf6 2.Bf4 g6 3.Nc3 d5 4.e3 Bg7 5.h4 h5 [The safe choice] 6.Be2 0-0 7.Nf3 c5 8.dxc5 Qa5 9.0-0 Qxc5 10.Nb5 a6 Carlsen's Choice [10...Na6? This allows White to setup a typical queenside bind with a4 and c3, in general Black does no acquiesce to this unless he can eject the Knight later with an eventual c6] 11.Nc7 Ra7 12.Nb5 axb5 13.Bxb8 Ra8 Black is more than fine.

C) 1.d4 Nf6 2.Bf4 g6 3.Nc3 d5 4.e3 Bg7 5.h4 0-0 6.h5 c5!? [My prefered choice, I don't believe in the White attack] 7.hxg6 hxg6 8.Qd2 Nc6 9.0-0-0 Qa5! 10.f3 Nh5 I like Black's chances here. Theory has moved on since Kulaots, Kaido - Wan, Yunguo 2017.

At the moment the best up to date and high quality London resource is probably the two part series from Modern-Chess.com [ https://www.modern-chess.com/camp-databases ] but just about everyone and his brother has some kinda course on the London these days, most claiming the world when the reality is rather different.

Osmosis - And by the way I have everything modern chess has on the London System and I can say this course by indrekR is far better in every way, the author is just much better at getting the point across and the structure of his course is the best I seen to this point.

Osmosis - If you don't play or like the London System and you don't buy courses on the London then who are you to say this is not the best resource out there on the London. I own everything there is available on the system and this is up there with the best. Why do you waste your time trying to criticise the System ? I noticed Giri easily beating dubov last night using the London system. Strange that it can be used to beat super GM's frequently. And I'm not interested in your lame reasons why so don't bother with your usual dribble.
Give up on trying to take away people's inspiration to play the London System Toppy it's not going away.

Toppy - Wow! You own everything on the london? So not just a zealot but a millionaire as well. Maybe you accumulate everything because you are satisfied with nothing, at some point you have to be able to drill down and analyse critically on your own, you know, create and improve upon the existing theory.

Giri vs Dubov were 5 min no increment games, is that the hill you really want to die on. Besides I have already stated in this thread that the London is fine if played flexibly, and if you are a busy guy with a family kids and office job then such short cuts make some sense. Just understand that short cuts carry drawbacks, that's just the way it is.

Osmosis - @ Toppy
what are you talking about twit, assuming everything again and dribbling on about things you know nothing about. go away !

Concerned Observer - Wow, time to tone it down a bit, perhaps?

Toppy mentioned three concrete lines where he likes Black. No response to any of them from you. So at the moment there's no doubt who's winning this debate.

Osmosis - there is no debate Concerned Observer i don't debate moves with people who have no idea what they are talking about. like yourself and Toppy just mind your business. [END]

And ironically therein lies the rub - Osmosis later appealed to chessable to have me either censored or banned citing his being harassed and abused in the above thread - And they say chess forums are uneventful and boring, imagine that! 

TopNotch wrote on 02/13/22 at 21:53:20:

True, I don't post as often as I used to, and that's a conscious choice. Online chess took up too much of my time, and I could use that time for other things - like seriously improving my play instead of just writing about it! 

Thanks a lot for the info. I bought Fier's course on your recommendation and like the look of it. I've only browsed a few random chapters of the pgn so far - of those the Classical parts look really well done, while the Hyper-Accelerated Dragon parts have good line choices but could have done with more detail. Maybe the latter were more of an afterthought to the main parts of course.

Overall the recommendations seem to bear a lot of similarity to IM Piotr Nguyen's Accelerate the Dragon course over on Chessable, though that one is intentionally quite brief (and also the recommendation against the 5.Nc3 main line with Be3 and Bc4 is completely different). Maybe a sign that both authors did good research and analysis.

@TopNotch - I'm late to the party, but I also prefer Punishing The Provocateurs.  Along with sounding less generic, as you pointed out, it also retains the bit of alliterative flavor offered by Taking Out the Trash. 

Good luck with getting things worked out with Chessable!

If I may go a bit off topic and refer to the recent tread on the Barry attack, is there any value in tracking down your set-to with the Jobava Londoneers in the Chessable forum?  I did a cursory search thinking that some worthwhile analysis would have been shared, but failed to find that discussion.

MNb wrote on 02/14/22 at 06:59:07:


Agreed. I liked Taking out the trash, but this sounds even better to me.

Agreed.

TopNotch wrote on 02/13/22 at 21:53:20:

The last one.

TopNotch wrote on 02/12/22 at 22:51:41:

So pretty standard recommendations these days.

TopNotch, if you have seen much of this course by Fier, is it good? Would you recommend it (and for which levels)?

TD wrote on 02/12/22 at 09:35:34:


He recommends The Gurgenidze System against the bind and Dubov's 8...Re8 against Negi's 7.Bc4 line.