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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Accelerated Dragon with GM Alex Fier (Read 4280 times)
TopNotch
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Re: Accelerated Dragon with GM Alex Fier
Reply #16 - 02/15/22 at 20:15:40
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Nernstian59 wrote on 02/14/22 at 20:45:38:
@TopNotch - I'm late to the party, but I also prefer Punishing The Provocateurs.  Along with sounding less generic, as you pointed out, it also retains the bit of alliterative flavor offered by Taking Out the Trash. 

Good luck with getting things worked out with Chessable!

If I may go a bit off topic and refer to the recent tread on the Barry attack, is there any value in tracking down your set-to with the Jobava Londoneers in the Chessable forum?  I did a cursory search thinking that some worthwhile analysis would have been shared, but failed to find that discussion.


Thanks for weighing in about the name and I agree with you that Punish the Provateurs has a very pleasant ring to it. Regarding the chessable thread and the analysis you asked about. I am not sure if the below excerpt contains what you were looking for, but it does at least give me an excuse to share some of the more entertaining drama that sometimes occurs on other forums:

Re-Review posted by mrkopp entitled Best resource on the London so far? referring to the chessable course The London Attack: An Ambitious Repertoire by IndrekR.

mrkopp - You can't play Bf4, e3, Nf3, c3 against everything black does. You actually have to learn stuff. This will come as quite a shock to 90% of London players (dis intended).

Toppy - Actually you pretty much can and many amateurs do, it just means you will get nothing out of the opening except maybe a playable position with little to do middlegame wise. Nevertheless it provides a comfy security blanket for amateur players terrified of theory, tactical confrontation and the prospect of blundering pawns and pieces left and right early in the game. Secretly they play this move sequence Bf4, e3, Nf3, c3 hoping that their opponent leaves something hanging along the way but often when that doesn't happen they have no clue what to do next.

The London has lost all surprise value, it is now one of the most written about and deeply analysed openings there is. A much better and more potent weapon at amateur level is the 'Improved Stonewall Attack' with the dark squared bishop outside the pawn chain. if you can master this system and combine it with a couple other complimentary Dpawn Weapons you could become a deadly force at amateur and club level.


Enter Osmosis - again i disagree with you, you just keep assuming what amateur players will do and that they all follow the same moves regardless of what the opponent does, sounds to me like you struggle with the London System and so you don't like it, may i remind you that you too are an amateur ! give it a break mate, either learn the London System and understand it or stop making pointless comments about it.

Toppy - The London System is fine if played flexibly, but most novices like it out of Laziness and the desire to play the same way against everything. Such an approach is very limiting leads to frustration and an overall lack of chess improvement.

As a King's Indian player myself I don't struggle against the London at all, in fact I welcome it. KID players have bigger concerns than the Jobava London which is the only form of the London that will even make a KID player pay any attention to what you are doing.

Some feel more secure to hire a coach at $50.00 an hour to tell you the same thing I'm offering for free. If you are a novice and you feel compelled to study openings, then start with the Open Games, you will thank me later.

Osmosis - Just shows how closed minded you really are, every London player combines the jobava London with the London system that's just standard practice these days and when I play the London system I am very happy to see anyone play the KID because I immediately know I'm going to have an easy game with a crushing attack. The jobava London is all part of the London system that's how it's played, the fact you don't know it proves you are living in the past.
Nobody is going to pay for your sad outdated chess lessons dude you failed to update yourself.

Toppy - A student of mind actually bought the course, so at least now I can share my thoughts more concretely.

This course is definitely not the best resource out there on the London, having said that it is not a bad place to start for club players as it is well structured with the ideas explained in a logical and thematic way. Naturally as a KID player myself I was curious how deeply he would explore these de rigueur 5.h4 lines which every London Course recommends, but this approach no longer carries any shock value and black has more than one reliable way to deal with it.

The other line I was curious about was 1.d4 Nf6 2.Bf4 c5 [I actually consider 2.Bf4 against 2...Nf6 as an inferior London despite it being played by strong players, but perhaps this is just a matter of taste although it is noteworthy that Jobava himself never used this move order to reach the system that now bears his name] 3.e3 Qb6! The critical line after which objectively Black is at least equal or slightly better if White avoids a draw by repetition.

I didn't check 1.d4 d5 yet, since I rarely play either side of this position, but I am aware Grandelius has suggested a simple setup for Black involving 2.Bf4 e6 3.e3 Bd6 intending b6 with Bb7 or Ba6 to follow and sometimes Ne7 depending on circumstances.

Let me conclude with a few sample lines that illustrate Black's
resources:

A) 1.d4 Nf6 2.Bf4 c5 3.e3 Qb6 4.Nf3 Qxb2 5.Nbd2 Nc6 6.dxc5 Qc3![6...e6 is too co-operative, the priority is to ensure that Black's Queen has a safe way back] 7.Rb1 Qxc5 8.Rb5 Qc3 9.Bd3 d6 10.0-0 Na5 with equality or better.

B) 1.d4 Nf6 2.Bf4 g6 3.Nc3 d5 4.e3 Bg7 5.h4 h5 [The safe choice] 6.Be2 0-0 7.Nf3 c5 8.dxc5 Qa5 9.0-0 Qxc5 10.Nb5 a6 Carlsen's Choice [10...Na6? This allows White to setup a typical queenside bind with a4 and c3, in general Black does no acquiesce to this unless he can eject the Knight later with an eventual c6] 11.Nc7 Ra7 12.Nb5 axb5 13.Bxb8 Ra8 Black is more than fine.

C) 1.d4 Nf6 2.Bf4 g6 3.Nc3 d5 4.e3 Bg7 5.h4 0-0 6.h5 c5!? [My prefered choice, I don't believe in the White attack] 7.hxg6 hxg6 8.Qd2 Nc6 9.0-0-0 Qa5! 10.f3 Nh5 I like Black's chances here. Theory has moved on since Kulaots, Kaido - Wan, Yunguo 2017.

At the moment the best up to date and high quality London resource is probably the two part series from Modern-Chess.com [ https://www.modern-chess.com/camp-databases ] but just about everyone and his brother has some kinda course on the London these days, most claiming the world when the reality is rather different.

Osmosis - And by the way I have everything modern chess has on the London System and I can say this course by indrekR is far better in every way, the author is just much better at getting the point across and the structure of his course is the best I seen to this point.

Osmosis - If you don't play or like the London System and you don't buy courses on the London then who are you to say this is not the best resource out there on the London. I own everything there is available on the system and this is up there with the best. Why do you waste your time trying to criticise the System ? I noticed Giri easily beating dubov last night using the London system. Strange that it can be used to beat super GM's frequently. And I'm not interested in your lame reasons why so don't bother with your usual dribble.
Give up on trying to take away people's inspiration to play the London System Toppy it's not going away.

Toppy - Wow! You own everything on the london? So not just a zealot but a millionaire as well. Maybe you accumulate everything because you are satisfied with nothing, at some point you have to be able to drill down and analyse critically on your own, you know, create and improve upon the existing theory.

Giri vs Dubov were 5 min no increment games, is that the hill you really want to die on. Besides I have already stated in this thread that the London is fine if played flexibly, and if you are a busy guy with a family kids and office job then such short cuts make some sense. Just understand that short cuts carry drawbacks, that's just the way it is.

Osmosis - @ Toppy
what are you talking about twit, assuming everything again and dribbling on about things you know nothing about. go away !

Concerned Observer - Wow, time to tone it down a bit, perhaps?

Toppy mentioned three concrete lines where he likes Black. No response to any of them from you. So at the moment there's no doubt who's winning this debate.

Osmosis - there is no debate Concerned Observer i don't debate moves with people who have no idea what they are talking about. like yourself and Toppy just mind your business. [END]

And ironically therein lies the rub - Osmosis later appealed to chessable to have me either censored or banned citing his being harassed and abused in the above thread - And they say chess forums are uneventful and boring, imagine that!  Lips Sealed

  

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TopNotch
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Re: Accelerated Dragon with GM Alex Fier
Reply #15 - 02/15/22 at 19:19:30
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Stigma wrote on 02/15/22 at 18:09:35:
TopNotch wrote on 02/13/22 at 21:53:20:
Hi Stig, you are a rare guest these days and it's always pleasant to hear from you.

Now to your questions:

Yes, the course is very good and I can recommend it right up to master level. In addition to the well-known stuff Fier has offered a number of relatively fresh ideas in critical lines, which is often a sign the author has done some real work rather than looking for an easy paycheque. [...]

True, I don't post as often as I used to, and that's a conscious choice. Online chess took up too much of my time, and I could use that time for other things - like seriously improving my play instead of just writing about it!  Smiley

Thanks a lot for the info. I bought Fier's course on your recommendation and like the look of it. I've only browsed a few random chapters of the pgn so far - of those the Classical parts look really well done, while the Hyper-Accelerated Dragon parts have good line choices but could have done with more detail. Maybe the latter were more of an afterthought to the main parts of course.

Overall the recommendations seem to bear a lot of similarity to IM Piotr Nguyen's Accelerate the Dragon course over on Chessable, though that one is intentionally quite brief (and also the recommendation against the 5.Nc3 main line with Be3 and Bc4 is completely different). Maybe a sign that both authors did good research and analysis.


I fully agree with your assessment. Also, take note of his suggestion against another critical line of the Bind, namely 10.Qd3 it could pay off later.
  

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Stigma
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Re: Accelerated Dragon with GM Alex Fier
Reply #14 - 02/15/22 at 18:09:35
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TopNotch wrote on 02/13/22 at 21:53:20:
Hi Stig, you are a rare guest these days and it's always pleasant to hear from you.

Now to your questions:

Yes, the course is very good and I can recommend it right up to master level. In addition to the well-known stuff Fier has offered a number of relatively fresh ideas in critical lines, which is often a sign the author has done some real work rather than looking for an easy paycheque. [...]

True, I don't post as often as I used to, and that's a conscious choice. Online chess took up too much of my time, and I could use that time for other things - like seriously improving my play instead of just writing about it!  Smiley

Thanks a lot for the info. I bought Fier's course on your recommendation and like the look of it. I've only browsed a few random chapters of the pgn so far - of those the Classical parts look really well done, while the Hyper-Accelerated Dragon parts have good line choices but could have done with more detail. Maybe the latter were more of an afterthought to the main parts of course.

Overall the recommendations seem to bear a lot of similarity to IM Piotr Nguyen's Accelerate the Dragon course over on Chessable, though that one is intentionally quite brief (and also the recommendation against the 5.Nc3 main line with Be3 and Bc4 is completely different). Maybe a sign that both authors did good research and analysis.
  

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Re: Accelerated Dragon with GM Alex Fier
Reply #13 - 02/15/22 at 12:13:33
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Seems like there's a consensus on the best course title already. Anyway I also like "Punishing the Provocateurs". The alliteration is indeed nice.

It also sounds more original than the alternative. "Dubious Openings" is quite a hackneyed term.
« Last Edit: 02/15/22 at 18:14:55 by Stigma »  

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Nernstian59
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Re: Accelerated Dragon with GM Alex Fier
Reply #12 - 02/14/22 at 20:45:38
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@TopNotch - I'm late to the party, but I also prefer Punishing The Provocateurs.  Along with sounding less generic, as you pointed out, it also retains the bit of alliterative flavor offered by Taking Out the Trash. 

Good luck with getting things worked out with Chessable!

If I may go a bit off topic and refer to the recent tread on the Barry attack, is there any value in tracking down your set-to with the Jobava Londoneers in the Chessable forum?  I did a cursory search thinking that some worthwhile analysis would have been shared, but failed to find that discussion.
  
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TopNotch
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Re: Accelerated Dragon with GM Alex Fier
Reply #11 - 02/14/22 at 18:06:28
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Thanks very much to everyone that responded.

@RoleyPoley - I too was fond of Taking out the Trash as it really captured the essence of the course. Chessable however seemed a bit nervous about it, which was okay, so I gave them a shortlist of about 10 or so alternative names of which none of them was Punish Dubious Openings: 1.e4 which seems rather nondescript to me, but I said to myself maybe I'm being too picky, so I decided to put the question to you guys and you confirmed my intuition.

Punish the Provocateurs: 1.e4 not only sounds a lot more interesting, but it more accurately depicts the style and tone in which the course was written.

To be precise, it is not always the Openings I covered in themselves that were dubious but rather some of the line choices within them that are questionable, and designed to 'Provoke' an over-reaction.  Also, the course contains a number of repertoire clashes with other authors including chessable's, which I anticipate will provoke quite some controversy and debate. Meaning that Punish the Provocateurs is perfectly apropos, as it could be interpreted in more than one way.  Wink

Hopefully, I will be able to have these creative differences resolved with chessable to our mutual satisfaction.

Once again, thanks very much for your input guys, it was very helpful.

All the best,
Toppy
  

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Re: Accelerated Dragon with GM Alex Fier
Reply #10 - 02/14/22 at 16:44:11
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MNb wrote on 02/14/22 at 06:59:07:
Yup. Punish the Provocateurs is an excellent title.


Agreed. I liked Taking out the trash, but this sounds even better to me.
  

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Re: Accelerated Dragon with GM Alex Fier
Reply #9 - 02/14/22 at 14:36:49
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Or Chess punishing: 1.e4, but you'll need Tony's permission for this one Smiley
  
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Re: Accelerated Dragon with GM Alex Fier
Reply #8 - 02/14/22 at 13:26:53
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Agreed.
  
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Re: Accelerated Dragon with GM Alex Fier
Reply #7 - 02/14/22 at 06:59:07
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Yup. Punish the Provocateurs is an excellent title.
  

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Re: Accelerated Dragon with GM Alex Fier
Reply #6 - 02/14/22 at 05:20:53
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TopNotch wrote on 02/13/22 at 21:53:20:
Edit: On a side note, which of the following titles would appeal to you more? Punish Dubious Openings: 1.e4 or Punish the Provocateurs: 1.e4 I would really appreciate the entire forum weighing in on this.

The last one.
  
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Re: Accelerated Dragon with GM Alex Fier
Reply #5 - 02/13/22 at 21:53:20
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Stigma wrote on 02/13/22 at 11:57:46:
TopNotch wrote on 02/12/22 at 22:51:41:
TD wrote on 02/12/22 at 09:35:34:
I would like to know the index of variations from this course from Modern Chess. What does he play against the Maroczy?

https://www.modern-chess.com/accelerated-dragon-with-gm-alex-fier-video-database...


He recommends The Gurgenidze System against the bind and Dubov's 8...Re8 against Negi's 7.Bc4 line.

So pretty standard recommendations these days.

TopNotch, if you have seen much of this course by Fier, is it good? Would you recommend it (and for which levels)?


Hi Stig, you are a rare guest these days and it's always pleasant to hear from you.

Now to your questions:

Yes, the course is very good and I can recommend it right up to master level. In addition to the well-known stuff Fier has offered a number of relatively fresh ideas in critical lines, which is often a sign the author has done some real work rather than looking for an easy paycheque. For example, he does an excellent job of explaining and illustrating the ins and outs of a hitherto annoying line that Black had to deal with in the past:

Aronian,L. (2767) - Duda,JK. (2757) [B36]
Norway Chess Stavanger NOR (8.3), 13.10.2020

1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 g6 3.c4 Nc6 4.d4 cxd4 5.Nxd4 Nf6 6.Nc3 Nxd4 7.Qxd4 d6 8.Be3 Bg7 9.f3
This is one of White's critical tries 0-0 10.Qd2 Be6 11.Rc1 Qa5 12.b3 Rfc8 13.Be2 a6 14.Na4 Qxd2+ 15.Kxd2 Nd7 16.g4 Rcb8! 17.Nc3 b5 18.Nd5 Bxd5 19.cxd5 Nc5!! Effectively putting this line out of business as a winning try for White. Against 9. Be2 he generally goes for the ...a5-a4 stuff with one or two notable exceptions.

The above Duda game was covered by my friend Chris Ward in a CPub update some time ago, but Fier goes into much more detail as to why this line works tactically and positionally for Black.

There are other interesting suggestions too in various critical lines of the Bind, that really shows that Fier took pride in this project, but I think I've offered enough info to whet the appetite, we wouldn't want Modern-Chess to copyright strike chesspub.com.  Wink 

Edit: On a side note, which of the following titles would appeal to you more? Punish Dubious Openings: 1.e4 or Punish the Provocateurs: 1.e4 I would really appreciate the entire forum weighing in on this.
« Last Edit: 02/14/22 at 18:35:17 by TopNotch »  

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Stigma
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Re: Accelerated Dragon with GM Alex Fier
Reply #4 - 02/13/22 at 11:57:46
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TopNotch wrote on 02/12/22 at 22:51:41:
TD wrote on 02/12/22 at 09:35:34:
I would like to know the index of variations from this course from Modern Chess. What does he play against the Maroczy?

https://www.modern-chess.com/accelerated-dragon-with-gm-alex-fier-video-database...


He recommends The Gurgenidze System against the bind and Dubov's 8...Re8 against Negi's 7.Bc4 line.

So pretty standard recommendations these days.

TopNotch, if you have seen much of this course by Fier, is it good? Would you recommend it (and for which levels)?
  

Improvement begins at the edge of your comfort zone. -Jonathan Rowson
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TD
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Re: Accelerated Dragon with GM Alex Fier
Reply #3 - 02/13/22 at 07:16:12
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TopNotch, thank you!
  
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TopNotch
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Re: Accelerated Dragon with GM Alex Fier
Reply #2 - 02/12/22 at 22:51:41
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TD wrote on 02/12/22 at 09:35:34:
I would like to know the index of variations from this course from Modern Chess. What does he play against the Maroczy?

https://www.modern-chess.com/accelerated-dragon-with-gm-alex-fier-video-database...


He recommends The Gurgenidze System against the bind and Dubov's 8...Re8 against Negi's 7.Bc4 line.
  

The man who tries to do something and fails is infinitely better than he who tries to do nothing and succeeds - Lloyd Jones Smiley
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