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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Invasion of Ukraine (Read 5785 times)
cathexis
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Re: Invasion of Ukraine
Reply #41 - 04/16/22 at 12:21:58
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I still hold with deleting them. As for Bibs' most recent comment above, many non-chess forums I have belonged to in the past simply forbid politics, religion, etc. in *ALL* areas, not just in chit-chat. A banner over the board index and/or homepage could state this plainly. Further, such a phrase could be attached to all membership applications requiring agreement to same in order to post. A de facto agreement already exists with regard to such things as offensive language. By their nature, Trolls will always seek admittance since they cannot operate without it. Therefore, some manner of vigilance and enforcement is necessary. I am content to live with the decisions of the Mods. It is their job after all.
  
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Bibs
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Re: Invasion of Ukraine
Reply #40 - 04/16/22 at 11:22:23
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GMTonyKosten wrote on 04/15/22 at 08:17:29:
an ordinary chessplayer wrote on 04/14/22 at 19:27:57:
In general I am against deleting posts and threads. It creates a bit of a knowledge vacuum where some future new poster can't see the sort of stuff that is not allowed. It would be better to tag the posts with "account banned" or some such

Ok, that's reasonable, I will leave them alone for now, but if anyone wishes to see any of them deleted just send me a PM.


I see that point, but I am not sure the next non-chess trolling muppet would search for other examples of systematic irrelevance.

I'd say to just purge. Flush.

I don't see the point of the non-chess part anyhow. Never did. Just invites such nonsense. If I want to talk about Benoni theory, I don't go to a site about contemporary politics, or about 17th century aristocractic gardening, or whatever. Likewise should hold. Bin the section.

Chess anyone...?
  
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GMTonyKosten
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Re: Invasion of Ukraine
Reply #39 - 04/15/22 at 08:17:29
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an ordinary chessplayer wrote on 04/14/22 at 19:27:57:
In general I am against deleting posts and threads. It creates a bit of a knowledge vacuum where some future new poster can't see the sort of stuff that is not allowed. It would be better to tag the posts with "account banned" or some such

Ok, that's reasonable, I will leave them alone for now, but if anyone wishes to see any of them deleted just send me a PM.
  
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Mikhail_Golubev
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Re: Invasion of Ukraine
Reply #38 - 04/15/22 at 04:20:37
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GMTonyKosten wrote on 04/14/22 at 09:55:25:
I would also like to delete his posts, does anyone have any objections?


I think that it's up to admins, Tony. Whatever decision will be fine with me. Smiley
  
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Mikhail_Golubev
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Re: Invasion of Ukraine
Reply #37 - 04/14/22 at 20:40:35
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Quote:
I've been studying Governments for 13 years <...>

Please tell all this to someone else. As a political activist for many years, starting with participation in the organising committee of the 2013/2014 Euromaidan in Odessa, I know many Ukrainian politicians personally. Ex.prime minister Goncharuk, Saakashvili, Mustafa Nayem (who essentially started the all-Ukrainian Euromaidan in Kiev), Grytsenko, even Nadya Savchenko, and many many others.
  
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an ordinary chessplayer
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Re: Invasion of Ukraine
Reply #36 - 04/14/22 at 19:27:57
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GMTonyKosten wrote on 04/14/22 at 09:55:25:
I would also like to delete his posts, does anyone have any objections?

In general I am against deleting posts and threads. It creates a bit of a knowledge vacuum where some future new poster can't see the sort of stuff that is not allowed. It would be better to tag the posts with "account banned" or some such. Locking threads occasionally is also okay. And I doubt the "go to hell" Ukrainians give two figs about the deletion or retention of posts by SteveUK.

Of course it is your call in the end.
  
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Re: Invasion of Ukraine
Reply #35 - 04/14/22 at 14:21:31
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I was ready to write something like "don't feed the troll", but maybe it is not necessary anymore.
  
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Re: Invasion of Ukraine
Reply #34 - 04/14/22 at 13:16:07
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No objection from me either, but on the contrary strong support. What really galled me, even more than the conspiracy tosh called out by Bibs and recommendation of the vicious website “Bitchute” (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BitChute), was the suggestion that Putin wishes he’d slaughtered the Ukrainian army in their beds – since in context that read to me as if “SteveUK” himself wishes it had been so.
  
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Confused_by_Theory
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Re: Invasion of Ukraine
Reply #33 - 04/14/22 at 12:31:14
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Hi.

No objection from me. Just if possible making sure it's not a hack would be prudent given the sheer amount of talking points from Putin's propaganda machine spewed out.

In general I think there should always in a serious forum be some kind of ratio between how much a user is claiming about things (especially serious things) and how much he or she sort of tries to back up whatever is stated. With the ideal being 1:1 or at least near and attempts, even flawed ones, potentially giving some kind of part credit. With very few attempts to back up stuff said, it does become extraordinarily hard for others in any discussion to sort of relate to the person making claim after claim. Threads thus basically get derailed. That's not good.

Have a nice day.
  
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cathexis
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Re: Invasion of Ukraine
Reply #32 - 04/14/22 at 12:27:43
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None. Chit-Chat is the place for personal opinions, but even there it is assumed that whatever your opinions may be, your main purpose for joining was chess.
  
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Re: Invasion of Ukraine
Reply #31 - 04/14/22 at 09:55:25
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I have decided to delete the SteveUK account as it is clear he is not here to discuss chess openings. I would also like to delete his posts, does anyone have any objections?
  
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Re: Invasion of Ukraine
Reply #30 - 04/14/22 at 06:47:38
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@SteveUK

Yes of course you know things hardly anybody knows...

Facts and truth...

You seem to know Putin personally?
Maybe send him a message that it is not quite carefully considered if you bomb schools, hospitals, civilian shelters?
Or is that fake news and being distorted by the mainstream media?
  
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SteveUK
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Re: Invasion of Ukraine
Reply #29 - 04/14/22 at 06:10:48
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Yes of course, we here know nothing about Ukraine

I've been studying Governments for 13 years - I learned a lot of things about the UK government that hardly anybody in the UK know

I also know a lot of things about the USA government that hardly anybody in the USA know

Fact is, the mainstream news simply parrot what the governments and NGOs want them to report - things that they don't want you to know get censored and deleted

Truth comes out eventually if you look in the right places for it

Putin is ex KGB - which says a lot about him, but he is also an excellent chess player - he does nothing without careful consideration
  
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Mikhail_Golubev
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Re: Invasion of Ukraine
Reply #28 - 04/14/22 at 05:28:59
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What? Only biased pro Ukrainian trolls get to write?

Yes. Because you are on the side of the fundamental inhumanity and the war crimes.

Quote:
Conveniently, nobody is talking about the thousands of men, women, and children killed over an 8 year

Why do you think that nobody is talking? It's a common knowledge in Ukraine that about 14,000 people including civilians died in the Donbass war in 8 years (very few people in 2020, 2021; majority of people died in the active phase of events, 2014-2015). But who's responsible if not putin who organised this war, starting with the annexation of Crimea, followed by his announcement of the nonsensical "Novorossiya", sending to us terrorist groups, like the one of the infamous Girkin, making the laughable fake referendums, and invading with Russian regular forces eventually. Ukraine was not ready for all this - our fault, but every country has rights to defend itself, and after the annexation of Crimea by putin it was crystal clear that no more territories will be given to him without our armed resistance. Everyone can compare what Ukraine did in Donbass to what Russia did (twice!) in Chechnya, and make conclusions which government is as humanistic as it gets in such situations, and which isn't.

Quote:
There is a lot of bad stuff regarding Ukraine that is not being reported by the mainstream media - I doubt even the population of Ukraine have any idea of what has been going on there

Yes of course, we here know nothing about Ukraine, and only you in the middle of nowhere know why putin can insist that he may have rights to send his army to occupy our lands and kill Ukrainians.
  
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SteveUK
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Re: Invasion of Ukraine
Reply #27 - 04/13/22 at 17:04:43
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Re.
In 2014 putin annexed Crimea


Yes, he did - after the population of Crimea voted to re-join Russia in a referendum

Re.
in 2022 putin eventually sent all his army to kill us Ukrainians only because we want to live in democracy and not under fascist regimes like Russia and Belarus have.


If he had sent all his army, it would all have been over in less than a week - and Ukrain has plenty of facists - they openly march about with flags

Re.
I'm really not sure whether the freedom of speech for the pro-putin trolls is justified.


What? Only biased pro Ukrainian trolls get to write?


Conveniently, nobody is talking about the thousands of men, women, and children killed over an 8 year period by Ukrainian forces - because they chose to break away from Ukraine

There is a lot of bad stuff regarding Ukraine that is not being reported by the mainstream media - I doubt even the population of Ukraine have any idea of what has been going on there
  
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Re: Invasion of Ukraine
Reply #26 - 04/13/22 at 16:38:27
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Laramonet wrote on 04/12/22 at 18:41:39:
@Mikhail_Golubev
The vast majority of us support you and your country and only wish our governments would do more to stop the suffering.


Of course. Usually the bad guys make a lot of noise, but definitely common sense prevail in the majority of us. The shame is that sometimes the ones on power lack a bit (or more than a bit) of this necessary common sense.

  
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Re: Invasion of Ukraine
Reply #25 - 04/12/22 at 18:41:39
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@Mikhail_Golubev
The vast majority of us support you and your country and only wish our governments would do more to stop the suffering.
  
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Re: Invasion of Ukraine
Reply #24 - 04/12/22 at 01:09:38
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Stigma wrote on 04/06/22 at 15:36:47:
Historically, Ukraine has been an independent country since 1991.

Historically, in 1994 Russia, the UK and the US guaranteed the security of Ukraine within its borders at the time.

Yes indeed, but putin and his supporters doesn't care at all. In 2014 putin annexed Crimea, then announced his 'Novorossiya' project which led to a war in Donbass, but he hoped for much more than that. And in 2022 putin eventually sent all his army to kill us Ukrainians only because we want to live in democracy and not under fascist regimes like Russia and Belarus have.

People whom I knew already died, fighting for Ukraine in this mad putin's war. Relatives of my closest friends died in Chernihiv while trying to hide from putin's missiles. One known Ukrainian chess player is lost in the Mariupol hell; and also the wife of another chess-player cannot be found for a long time there. Most of Ukrainian children, millions (!) already are replaced because of this war. Hundreds of Ukrainian children died. And everything can get worse.

I'm really not sure whether the freedom of speech for the pro-putin trolls is justified. Maybe is some formats like this forum, when an admin is looking at what people write.
Also, the instrumental putin's supporters should preserve the right to say their word at the future trials on them. Some of them will try to apologise for what they did.
  
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SteveUK
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Re: Invasion of Ukraine
Reply #23 - 04/07/22 at 08:00:30
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Bibs wrote on 04/06/22 at 21:56:47:
SteveUK wrote:
“Mainstream media is totally controlled, and the Internet is heavily censored now - post anything that is not the official narrative and its offline in about an hour“

Citation for this ‘one hour’ claim required. Or I call it for the obvious nonsense and conspiracy tosh that it is.

SteveUK - you are encouraged to post about chess theory here. Don’t just come here to post your conspiracy nonsense. That’s not welcome. It’s a chess theory site. There are plenty of other places elsewhere for conspiracy piffle. Breitbart, Reddit, FB...

Let’s keep standards up hereabouts shall we?


I hear you, but I did not make the original post - I was rebutting the main claim made in that post - that Ukraine was innocent, when in fact they provoked Russia, who for years warned what would happen
  
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SteveUK
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Re: Invasion of Ukraine
Reply #22 - 04/07/22 at 07:53:24
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Stigma wrote on 04/06/22 at 15:36:47:
It's just a distraction from the real issues.

It could well be a distraction from imminent CV-19 jabs HIV deaths, imminent global financial meltdown, NWO agenda, etc.

[quote author=76514053404C4B706E250 link=1646238123/18#18 date=1649255505]
The whole thing is just a tragic blunder by Putin.

Yes, Putin blundered - he tried to keep the Ukraine public on friendly terms and just hit the anti-aircraft sites, arms depots, radar stations, etc. - I bet now he wishes he had hit the military barracks and wiped out the Ukrainian army when they were sleeping during the launch of his attack

NATO broke their agreement not to move eastwards, Putin kept telling NATO to stop moving ever closer to Russia, NATO kept pushing eastwards, Ukraine was pleading to join NATO and have nukes

Remember the Cuban missile crisis? - USA governments are total hypocrites


[quote author=1235243724282F140A410 link=1646238123/19#19 date=1649256268]

Nonsense. It's not perfect anywhere, but there's no comparison between the media situation in the West and the censorship and draconian punishments for free speech that's going on in Russia.

You need to look at some of the alternative sites such as bitchute - UK has legislation going through now that stops everything regarding dissent of the government narrative - Canada freezing the private bank accounts of people who demonstrate against the government - Australia pushes back the court dates of businesses that don't follow the government mandates - and those business have had been shut and had their locks changed and forced into bankruptcy.

re. your first post on this is very much at odds with the official Western narrative, but it's still up after nearly four hours.

I was talking about facebook, twitter, google search results, etc. - there are bots automatically taking down content shortly after posting - latest is, some sites are scanning the posts as they are being typed, and the author is unable to post at all

  
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Bibs
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Re: Invasion of Ukraine
Reply #21 - 04/06/22 at 21:56:47
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SteveUK wrote:
“Mainstream media is totally controlled, and the Internet is heavily censored now - post anything that is not the official narrative and its offline in about an hour“

Citation for this ‘one hour’ claim required. Or I call it for the obvious nonsense and conspiracy tosh that it is.

SteveUK - you are encouraged to post about chess theory here. Don’t just come here to post your conspiracy nonsense. That’s not welcome. It’s a chess theory site. There are plenty of other places elsewhere for conspiracy piffle. Breitbart, Reddit, FB...

Let’s keep standards up hereabouts shall we?
  
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Re: Invasion of Ukraine
Reply #20 - 04/06/22 at 15:36:47
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Point is, big name USA politicians are up to their neck in Ukrainian graft - sons of these big name politicians are embedded in Ukrainian companies and skimming mind boggling amounts of money out of Ukraine

Point is, even if a country is corrupt (and though you're surely exaggerating I don't know to what extent Ukraine is), that does nothing at all to justify an invasion by a neighbor (that's known to be at least as corrupt). It's just a distraction from the real issues.

Quote:
Historically, half of Ukraine was Russian, the other half was no-mans-land - I suspect Russia will keep the part that was Russian, and have the other half as a buffer zone between Russia and NATO

Historically, Moscow was just a small, remote outpost of the Rus realm, way behind Kiev and other centres like Novgorod and Vladimir-Suzdal.

Historically, most of Ukraine has been ruled by Poland, Poland-Lithuania, the Ottoman Empire, an independent Cossack Hetmanate, or all of the above.

Historically, Ukraine has been an independent country since 1991.

Historically, in 1994 Russia, the UK and the US guaranteed the security of Ukraine within its borders at the time.

See? History can be used to justify many different things. The only ones that are relevant today are those from 1991 and 1994, as well as the wishes of the people of Ukraine today.

Quote:
Putin has said repeatedly that he will not tolerate NATO on the borders of Russia - yet NATO kept creeping ever closer, despite an agreement that NATO would never move eastwards

I'm aware of the geopolitics of this. But Ukranians, like all other nations, have a right to choose their own alliances. And with this invasion and senseless violence Putin has managed to alienate most Ukrainians from Russia. So in the coming decades Ukraine is even less likely to be looking east than it already was. The whole thing is just a tragic blunder by Putin.

Quote:
What? You don't think that every Western government controls the media in their country?

Mainstream media is totally controlled, and the Internet is heavily censored now - post anything that is not the official narrative and its offline in about an hour

Nonsense. It's not perfect anywhere, but there's no comparison between the media situation in the West and the censorship and draconian punishments for free speech that's going on in Russia.

Btw. your first post on this is very much at odds with the official Western narrative, but it's still up after nearly four hours.
« Last Edit: 04/06/22 at 16:52:47 by Stigma »  

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SteveUK
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Re: Invasion of Ukraine
Reply #19 - 04/06/22 at 14:44:28
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Stigma wrote on 04/06/22 at 13:29:02:
So sad to think that most of these Kremlin talking points on Ukraine actually work on many at home, due to the comprehensive media control by the authoritarian regime


What? You don't think that every Western government controls the media in their country?

Mainstream media is totally controlled, and the Internet is heavily censored now - post anything that is not the official narrative and its offline in about an hour


  
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SteveUK
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Re: Invasion of Ukraine
Reply #18 - 04/06/22 at 14:31:45
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Stigma wrote on 04/06/22 at 13:29:02:
So sad to think that most of these Kremlin talking points on Ukraine actually work on many at home, due to the comprehensive media control by the authoritarian regime.

I guess most of it is just plain lies, but even if there are some kernels of truth somewhere that would not justify the ongoing brutal "special operation" by the Putin regime. If there is a fire and suspected arson somewhere, no reasonable person would send in the most notorious arsonist in town to sort things out.


Point is, big name USA politicians are up to their neck in Ukrainian graft - sons of these big name politicians are embedded in Ukrainian companies and skimming mind boggling amounts of money out of Ukraine

Historically, half of Ukraine was Russian, the other half was no-mans-land - I suspect Russia will keep the part that was Russian, and have the other half as a buffer zone between Russia and NATO

Putin has said repeatedly that he will not tolerate NATO on the borders of Russia - yet NATO kept creeping ever closer, despite an agreement that NATO would never move eastwards
  
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SteveUK
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Re: Invasion of Ukraine
Reply #17 - 04/06/22 at 14:17:05
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an ordinary chessplayer wrote on 04/06/22 at 13:18:06:
@SteveUK - Thanks for that post. It's always helpful to know exactly with whom we are chatting. ... I was scratching my head over your statement RE the $100 Android tablet vis-a-vis the desktop computer. But you just explained it very well.


I've been using Windows computers since Windows 95 - laptops and desktops - I was stunned that a $100 Android tablet can run Leela when Intel i5 on Windows 10 can't - I now think the age of Windows is over, and I don't care to get involved with Linux

Here in Europe we have 20 percent sales tax - so I had no inclination to upgrade to a high priced i7 or i9 desktop - my i5s are only 2 years old

Re. Ukraine - Putin can turn off the gas to Europe and kill European industry - he can also ban exports of computer chip making materials that can only be sourced from Russia - yet the European idiot politicians keep poking the bear - anybody would think there's a NWO agenda at play
  
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Re: Invasion of Ukraine
Reply #16 - 04/06/22 at 13:29:02
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So sad to think that most of these Kremlin talking points on Ukraine actually work on many at home, due to the comprehensive media control by the authoritarian regime.

I guess most of it is just plain lies, but even if there are some kernels of truth somewhere that would not justify the ongoing brutal "special operation" by the Putin regime. If there is a fire and suspected arson somewhere, no reasonable person would send in the most notorious arsonist in town to sort things out.
  

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Re: Invasion of Ukraine
Reply #15 - 04/06/22 at 13:18:06
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@SteveUK - Thanks for that post. It's always helpful to know exactly with whom we are chatting. ... I was scratching my head over your statement RE the $100 Android tablet vis-a-vis the desktop computer. But you just explained it very well.
  
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SteveUK
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Re: Invasion of Ukraine
Reply #14 - 04/06/22 at 11:50:14
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Point is, the legitimate Ukraine government was overthrown by USA agents, and a puppet installed

Ukraine government signed the Minsk agreement - but broke it immediately and killed men, women and children for 8 years - because 2 areas of Ukraine had the nerve to break away from the corrupt Ukraine

Ukraine had about a dozen bio-warfare labs specifically trying to develop a genetically engineered bio-weapon that only targeted Russian people's DNA - that's the real reason Putin sent in the military - to capture the bio-labs and evidence of what they were doing, and who was funding them - as well as putting a stop to it

Secondary objective - wipe out Ukraine military capabilities - because Ukraine has ceaselessly been threatening Russia for years - they have even said that if they ever get their hands on nuclear weapons, they will use them against Russia

Ukraine is just about the most corrupt country in the world
  
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Re: Invasion of Ukraine
Reply #13 - 03/19/22 at 13:17:39
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Hi.

Just to make this clear. What the three big powers (Russia, US, UK) confirmed in the Budapest accords was that they wouldn't attack or threaten Ukraine themselves. Not that they would engage in collective defense of Ukraine.

The current Russian leadership threw those accords out the window. I would personally hope smaller nations see the complete disregard for of the Budapest accords as a sign not to enter into important state to state treaties with Russia specifically at present. Or maybe if needs to happen, then at least with good layers of guarantees. In the wider international community you kinda want specifically Russia to be in a lot of international treaties though. Laws of warfare treaties, nuclear arms control, space exploration and more. That's all gonna be messy if Russia totally withdraws or is completely cut out.

The one mechanism there if Ukraine got threatened was to have some debate in the UN Security council; where a permanent member like Russia can veto any substantive action. They did in 2014 and will obviously do if anything comes up again. It's not the first time veto powers there prove to be very useful. Not only for Russia to be fair though.

When it comes to Kosovo. Those bombing operations specifically were never up (to be vetoed) before the operation asfaik. Afterwards Russia wanted it stopped and got voted down before vetoes being needed. To some extent NATO did act offensively in Kosovo. Having some kind of offensive capability and using it in some situation is far removed from being anything nearing a potent (or present even) threat to a militarily powerful country like Russia though.

Have a nice day.
  
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Re: Invasion of Ukraine
Reply #12 - 03/14/22 at 16:57:55
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Pawnpusher wrote on 03/04/22 at 11:56:23:
On the topic of the 1990s, didn't three nations (Russia, the UK, and the US) guarantee the Ukraine's territorial integrity if the Ukrainians surrendered their nuclear weapons?


Yes. And what did happen in the last years about this topic. Look at the complete history and you will see no innocent government in this case. Shame above them all!
  

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Re: Invasion of Ukraine
Reply #11 - 03/04/22 at 14:31:38
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Yes! (at least I remember the US and Russia did). Ukraine had 10 nukes, loaded on missiles and in the silos, IIRC. Funny how neither side is bringing that up now. Wink

What concerns me most about that is that it sends a clear message to all 3rd world countries to NEVER trust the major powers. This in turn also guarantees that if any other country ever manages to obtain nukes they should NEVER give them up since promises of security are useless. So, the very action designed to guard against nuclear proliferation will now assure the absolute opposite should any other nation ever have the same chance.
  
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Re: Invasion of Ukraine
Reply #10 - 03/04/22 at 11:56:23
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On the topic of the 1990s, didn't three nations (Russia, the UK, and the US) guarantee the Ukraine's territorial integrity if the Ukrainians surrendered their nuclear weapons?
  
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Re: Invasion of Ukraine
Reply #9 - 03/03/22 at 19:49:08
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In the news: https://www.cnbc.com/2022/03/03/airline-software-giant-sabre-ends-service-with-r...

This won't stop Russian tanks but will cripple Aeroflot.
  
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Re: Invasion of Ukraine
Reply #8 - 03/03/22 at 13:06:07
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The world is moving with unprecedented speed and solidarity to isolate Russia economically and culturally. Never mind how important or unimportant chess sanctions would be, every organisation has to decide whether they're going to be on the bus or under the bus. Knowing FIDE, well, it's not too difficult to imagine which path they'll choose.
  

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Re: Invasion of Ukraine
Reply #7 - 03/03/22 at 10:12:45
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Ken Neat wrote on 03/02/22 at 16:22:02:
Yesterday I posted the following on the Durham County Chess Association website. I have nothing against individual Russian players, provided they don't support Putin, but this is one more way of getting at his barbaric regime.

All possible measures should be taken against the Putin regime to express revulsion against its brutal invasion of Ukraine, which threatens the peace of the entire world, and here sport can play its part. Football is the most popular world sport, and UEFA and (belatedly) FIFA have decided to exclude Russian teams from all competitions until further notice.

Chess is extremely popular in Russia, and FIDE, the International Chess Federation, has decided to strip Moscow of the World Olympiad which it was due to host in the summer. But we consider that this is not going far enough – like their football counterparts, Russian teams should be barred from taking part in all International and European competitions. We call on the English Chess Federation to demand this as a matter of urgency.

On the sole topic of FIDE taking sanctions against Russia and Belarus, you can check the board (especially president's pedigree) and sponsors (remember Nigel Short praising that phosphate firm?) to see this isn't going to happen soon. Or rather, the other way round.
  
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Re: Invasion of Ukraine
Reply #6 - 03/03/22 at 09:47:26
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This Topic was moved here from General Chess [move by] GMTonyKosten.
  
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Re: Invasion of Ukraine
Reply #5 - 03/03/22 at 02:43:51
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OK, well if my always-helpful friend AOC is jumping in then so will I! Though my words are not what most media is talking about and may disturb some.

What the West is doing is forgetting history. In the late 90's NATO, without any UN mandate, unilaterally decided that they had the right to go in and bomb over the problem of Kosovo. NATO painted (truthfully or not) Slobodan Milosovic  as a War Criminal committing acts of "genocide" (remember that term!). And this meant Nato could declare, without UN or Russian OK that they could effectively wage war and had to answer to no one but themselves for it. IIRC, a Russian official or ambassador was bluntly told they could attend the conference deciding this but they had literally no say. This was a HUGE humiliation to Russia (staunch ally of the Serbs) at a time when they had no choice but to choke it down.

But Putin did NOT forget. And now, after years of testing the West he is going to do exactly to the West as (he feels) the West did to him. Notice how he has plainly claimed reports of genocide against Russian heritage peoples in Luhansk.etc. Notice how he has declared Ukraine to be a "non-state" and effectively possessing no sovereign legitimacy. Notice how, reading all this, you may be thinking, "Oh! I had forgotten all that Serbian stuff." Putin, however, has not forgotten.

What we're seeing is an attempt by Russia (which Trump seems to agree with) to transform geo-politics from one of "values" to a "transactional" basis instead. Consider the Trans-Atlantic Slave Trade. It was a Horror of the worst kind since we evaluate it by things like human rights. But considered as a transactional operation designed to use superior technology and weaponry to enrich some and enhance imperialistic power it was a smashing (if nightmarish) success. Hence, why Trump said of Putin's bold moves, "This is genius."

Now we are hearing reports of Russian conscripts beginning to surrender and the Ukrainians have not just run away. Already, Putin and his cronies are beginning to slip in threats of nuclear war. If things worsen I wouldn't put it past Putin to set off an above-ground small-yield nuke, say in far-northern Siberia to make his threat more real. He does not believe the West is willing to die for this and Georgia, Crimea, Syria, and East Uk. are pretty good evidence of that.  But perhaps there is hope in the fighting spirit of Ukraine since, even if they loose, the insurgency they can unleash on their Occupiers will (I hope) make the price too high - even for Putin. What is chess to all this? In a world of values, Spassky/Fischer was a fight of Ours vs. Theirs (as encouraged by Nixon and Kissinger). But today? ErictheRed is merely telling the truth in that that is the calculus of Real-Politik.
  
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Re: Invasion of Ukraine
Reply #4 - 03/02/22 at 21:29:55
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Another crime against humanity is that Putin is the one Russian individual who will suffer least from all the varied sanctions placed against Russia.
  
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Re: Invasion of Ukraine
Reply #3 - 03/02/22 at 21:25:09
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@cathexis - Roll with it.

ErictheRed wrote on 03/02/22 at 18:55:47:
I don't think that this is really the place for this kind of discussion, but no-one of importance is going to care in the least if Russian chess players are allowed to compete or not.  Chess is inconsequential and barring players from competing won't change what's happening in the world, though some will feel that it's the symbolically right thing to do. 

Your short statement packs a lot of meaning, some of which I agree with and some of which I don't.

RE: "I don't think that this is really the place for this kind of discussion"

I guess I agree since I don't want to talk about Russia and Ukraine here, but I can also appreciate that others might want to.

RE: "no-one of importance is going to care in the least if Russian chess players are allowed to compete or not"

I don't want other people to tell me what to care about, and that makes me reluctant to say what other people should or should not care about. So I'm a little uncomfortable with this phrasing. By logical implication, if someone cares about whether Russian chess players are allowed to compete or not, then that someone is unimportant. I guess we can infer at a minimum the following are unimportant: Russian chess players, Ukrainian chess players, Russian organizers, Ukrainian organizers, etc., etc. Now maybe in the context of "military action" (to use a current euphemism) they actually are unimportant, but that's not something I want to come out and say.

RE: "Chess is inconsequential and barring players from competing won't change what's happening in the world"

Chess is not of zero consequence. Let's say it is of infinitesimal consequence, which is almost but not quite the same thing. Again, barring players from competing is not of zero effectiveness for creating change. Let's say it is of infinitesimal effectiveness. I say it would be hasty to conclude that we should abandon things of infinitesimal consequence, or that we should not do things of infinitesimal effectiveness. There are 8 billion individuals on the planet, and 8 billion times an infinitesimal quantity is of indeterminate size. Finally, if our only choices are between (A) things of infinitesimal value or effectiveness, and (B) nothing at all, then I might choose (A) even if it's likely nothing will come of it, because it's certain nothing will come from choosing (B).
  
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Re: Invasion of Ukraine
Reply #2 - 03/02/22 at 19:04:06
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@ Ken,

There is a thread already started in Chit-Chat you could reply to, and which might be better than General Chess. Just sayn'.
  
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Re: Invasion of Ukraine
Reply #1 - 03/02/22 at 18:55:47
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I don't think that this is really the place for this kind of discussion, but no-one of importance is going to care in the least if Russian chess players are allowed to compete or not.  Chess is inconsequential and barring players from competing won't change what's happening in the world, though some will feel that it's the symbolically right thing to do.
  
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Invasion of Ukraine
03/02/22 at 16:22:02
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Yesterday I posted the following on the Durham County Chess Association website. I have nothing against individual Russian players, provided they don't support Putin, but this is one more way of getting at his barbaric regime.

All possible measures should be taken against the Putin regime to express revulsion against its brutal invasion of Ukraine, which threatens the peace of the entire world, and here sport can play its part. Football is the most popular world sport, and UEFA and (belatedly) FIFA have decided to exclude Russian teams from all competitions until further notice.

Chess is extremely popular in Russia, and FIDE, the International Chess Federation, has decided to strip Moscow of the World Olympiad which it was due to host in the summer. But we consider that this is not going far enough – like their football counterparts, Russian teams should be barred from taking part in all International and European competitions. We call on the English Chess Federation to demand this as a matter of urgency.
  
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