FreeRepublic wrote on 03/25/22 at 01:57:18:

My apologies to the forum members since I also contributed to sidetracking the thread.  Nevertheless, as a forum newbie, I appreciate the informative comments from the other posters on that positional Winawer variation.

My sincere apologies.

Hi.

This line is also be reachable from 1.d4 e6 2.c4 c6 3.e4 d5 4.cxd5 cxd5 5.e5. Some other tries exist for white of course.

Have a nice day.

Stigma wrote on 03/24/22 at 23:21:23:


I am at least partly to blame for the hijacking of this thread. Sorry about that.

In addition to the players already mentioned, Botvinnik played these kinds of Winawer lines as black. Nowadays Qg4 or h4 are more common than Nf3. Also, white often chooses to deny black use of the a4 square by playing a4 himself.

I liked those closed positions reached by Botvinnik and others. Perhaps 6...Qa5 7Bd2 is the somewhat modern move order most likely to give black a chance to occupy the a4 square with a piece or close the position with ...c4. For myself, I would rather occupy the a4 square with a bishop than a queen. However few white players will let that happen.

AOC - Thanks!  The background information you gave on Chess Openings - Theory and Practice is much appreciated.  The publlication lag is a good explanation for the omission of those early 60s Uhlmann games. 

By the way, annotating Byrne-Smyslov in Chess Life & Review at the time, Benko gave 8. Bd3 as "!?".

(p. 617)
http://uscf1-nyc1.aodhosting.com/CL-AND-CR-ALL/CL-ALL/1976/1976_11.pdf

Nernstian59 wrote on 03/18/22 at 01:45:46:


I was proceeding from memory. The best I can do today is to refer you to the game Robert Byrne - Smyslov, 1976, Biel IZT, won by Byrne. The opening moves were:

1. e4 e6 2. d4 d5 3. Nc3 Bb4 4. e5 c5 5. a3 Bc3 6. bc3 Ne7 7.Nf3 Bd7 8. Bd3. Here Smyslov played 8...c4. I remember that as being the recommendation at the time.

Watson's first edition, 1984, of Play the French, which I have in my hands, gives both 8...c4 and 8...Ba4!? I no longer have general opening books from that era (Modern Chess Openings, Chess Openings - Theory and Practice).

FreeRepublic wrote on 03/17/22 at 01:31:30:

@FreeRepublic - Do you have any details on that Smyslov-Uhlmann game?  I tried to search for it in Mega Database 2022, but only found three Winawer games between those two players, all dating from the 1960s, which is well before the first edition of Play the French was published in 1984.

FreeRepublic wrote on 03/15/22 at 13:24:34:


Just to make a meta point here, but these days if Leela and SF14 think a move is OK - even at a quick glance - that's easily enough to move the burden of proof to the people trying to refute it!

There's been several cases of long held common sense beliefs getting overruled.

In this case I can't see any reason not to consider the move OK, the question is more whether black actually gains anything meaningful.

As I noted above, the most meaningful place would be in the c3 Sicillian where you can remove white's IQP options vs e6/d5. Otherwise, shrug. The worst thing in a practical sense is very likely simply that black is very considerably limiting their own range of playable set ups.

I looked at database.chessbase.com, after 4.c3 they have these percentages in the Results column:

• 4...Nc6 53%
• 4...Qb6 53%
• 4...Bd7 54%
• 4...Ne7 57%
• 4...cxd4 44%
• 4...Qa5 74%
• 4...a6 50%
• 4...b6 57%
• 4...Nd7 67%

I'm not sure how they order the list, 4...Nc6 is the most played but 4...Nd7 is not the least played. And after 4...cxd4 when white recaptures 5.cxd4 it's back to 57%, but I didn't notice that last night.

In the Advance French white gets a tiny edge at best. I've only played the solid lines from the black side, when I had white in the Advance I always chose 4.Nf3!? or 4.Qg4?!. But anyway in the hands of an expert a seemingly acceptable black opening can become a very uncomfortable middlegame.

About the Knight on c3. Sometimes it's good and sometimes it's not, but the point is that 4...cxd4 gives white the option at no benefit to black. White is not going to play d4xc5, so black can just wait with ...c5xd4 and remove that option. And in the particular line I gave, it's a known position but with the substitution of a2-a3 for Bf1-e2, which I think helps white. Of course black is solid and should equalize later with careful play, but it's not always the easiest thing.

an ordinary chessplayer wrote on 03/15/22 at 04:32:22:


Its actually much more reasonable than that Basically the white knight isn't actually that good on c3, so black can seemingly afford to give the option away early without damage.

The main tabia in in a way is that 4.. Nc6 5 Nf3 Nge7 6 Bd3 Nf5 7 BxN exf5 stuff. Well established theory of course, quite interesting. Absurd to call it a refutation of white's opening

Jones in Coffeehouse tries to avoid that black set up with various ideas vs black's moves orders. There - vs 5.. Nge7 but I think its the overlap here - he recommends that white go for Na3 -> c2 - while black has no Bxa3. 

That's pretty testing, computers can seemingly draw the mad complications in one of his lines, who is doing better in practice I've no idea. 

The a3 based ideas that you're referencing are of course OK, but both SF14 and Leela seem entirely content with black after 9.. Be7 10 h5 then Qb6 or h6.

Various Be3 based positions, again nothing bad there.

What black gains, I don't know. There's definitely an active benefit as a move order against the c3 Sicilian. Mostly I suppose you might make white think for a while, trying to find the way to take advantage? 

... 5 .. Nge7 6 dxc5 is legal but not very threatening either.

FMCharless wrote on 03/15/22 at 01:48:13:


No, I dont think there's anything wrong with posting one's musings, even if clearly not much thought has gone into them, although you might find it useful to check the existing theory (in this case which has been around for a hundred odd years) beforehand.

However, it is only natural to take issue with someone who claims accolades that he does not legitimately possess. You are not in fact a titled player, are you ?

you guys are very welcoming. this seems like an outdated forum with just a few people keeping it alive.
I thought I would bring some life to it by posting from time to time.

my post is very legitimate. in other words suggesting to play the advanced french by exchanging on d4 immediately.

nothing wrong with that.

Respectfully, it does seem that all these questions and insufficiently formed thoughts would be better somewhere else, such as on an unread personal blog. All seems a bit ‘look at me’ and all a bit pointless, to be blunt. 

Good luck though Charless. Genuinely. Get back to playing, and do your best. Expect to struggle at first and lose a big bundle of rating points. Don’t invest all of your being, all your emotional self in a board game though. That’s a recipe for unhappiness and a breakdown.

And the French stuff here. Yes, of course that structure is very well known. Moskalenko discussed it, among many others.

after studying the advanced briefly i came to certain conclusions. for instance, after 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.e5 c5 4.c3, that the best move for black is 4...cxd4!

this gives a clear plan for black which is to play for the pawn on d4.

it is better than the b6 lines or all other lines which lead to insipid play.

now play can continue 

[Event "?"]
[Site "?"]
[Date "2022.03.11"]
[Round "?"]
[White "?"]
[Black "?"]
[Result "*"]

1. d4 e6 2. e4 d5 3. e5 c5 4. c3 cxd4 5. cxd4 Ne7 6. Nf3 Nf5 7. Bd3 Nc6 8. Bxf5
exf5 9. Nc3 Be6 *

and black has a favorable imbalance. in certain positions he plays g5 and blow white off the board.