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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Is the QGD Orthodox still allive? (Read 1444 times)
kylemeister
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Re: Is the QGD Orthodox still allive?
Reply #18 - 09/22/22 at 16:00:05
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fdunne wrote on 09/22/22 at 11:17:53:
...b6 is the main move in the version with ...h6 in (reached from the Lasker Variation) although I suppose that makes a difference here.

I believe ...e5 in the Lasker version was once considered inferior, but apparently that was overturned.
https://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/chess/YaBB.pl?num=1645633520/7#7
  
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Kerangali
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Re: Is the QGD Orthodox still allive?
Reply #17 - 09/22/22 at 12:16:54
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Bibs wrote on 09/22/22 at 10:55:23:
Kerangali wrote on 09/22/22 at 06:23:52:
MNb wrote on 05/21/22 at 06:20:11:
If Kylemeister is right (statistics suggest that he is) a pretty solid repertoire can be constructed around 1.d4 d5 2.c4 c6 3.Nf3 Nf6 4.Nc3 e6 5.Bg5 h6 intending 6.Bh4 Be7 7.e3 O-O and 8...Nbd7 etc. The advantage of this move order is obvious: no Catalan, no Bf4 system, no Exchange (9.cxd5 Nxd5).

Relatedly, Sadler indicates in his Youtube opening series that computers consider the Be7 Botvinnik to be ok, ie:
1.d4 d5 2.c4 c6 3.Nf3 Nf6 4.Nc3 e6 5.Bg5 dxc4 4.e4 b5 5.e5 h6 6.Bh4 g5 7.Nxg5 hxg5 8.Bxg5 Be7 9.exf6 Bxf6 10.Bxf6 Qxf6.
This can be a useful addition to Semislav players, with fresh/simpler positions and (according to Sadler and his silicon friends) better King security.


Oh wow, didn't know he had a new channel, thanks, just subscribed. Sadler is so strong and is incredibly good at explaining stuff. I am trying to find this - what date was this Semi-Slav video please? Or might you provide a link pls?
TIA!

It's in his Introduction to the Silicon Road channel, starting here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KjxRf-3_6cY. He explores openings with computers and has 10 videos on Stockfish openings, including the Botvinnik gambit (I'll try to find this bit later). I remember great ideas for White against Caro-Kann  and Noteboom. He aso notices that computers :
a) play the KID with White if allowed, but refuse the Gruenfeld with 3.h4
b) play the Philidor with Black rather than the Pirc/Modern when given the choice.
Said he also attached PGN but I didn't check.
  
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fdunne
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Re: Is the QGD Orthodox still allive?
Reply #16 - 09/22/22 at 11:17:53
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kylemeister wrote on 09/21/22 at 18:30:03:
In the second game he eschews the main line 12...e5, but 12...b6 is also an ancient book move -- for instance in the 1940s Fine gave it as bad, citing a game Capablanca-Steiner.


...b6 is the main move in the version with ...h6 in (reached from the Lasker Variation) although I suppose that makes a difference here.
  
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Bibs
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Re: Is the QGD Orthodox still allive?
Reply #15 - 09/22/22 at 10:55:23
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Kerangali wrote on 09/22/22 at 06:23:52:
MNb wrote on 05/21/22 at 06:20:11:
If Kylemeister is right (statistics suggest that he is) a pretty solid repertoire can be constructed around 1.d4 d5 2.c4 c6 3.Nf3 Nf6 4.Nc3 e6 5.Bg5 h6 intending 6.Bh4 Be7 7.e3 O-O and 8...Nbd7 etc. The advantage of this move order is obvious: no Catalan, no Bf4 system, no Exchange (9.cxd5 Nxd5).

Relatedly, Sadler indicates in his Youtube opening series that computers consider the Be7 Botvinnik to be ok, ie:
1.d4 d5 2.c4 c6 3.Nf3 Nf6 4.Nc3 e6 5.Bg5 dxc4 4.e4 b5 5.e5 h6 6.Bh4 g5 7.Nxg5 hxg5 8.Bxg5 Be7 9.exf6 Bxf6 10.Bxf6 Qxf6.
This can be a useful addition to Semislav players, with fresh/simpler positions and (according to Sadler and his silicon friends) better King security.


Oh wow, didn't know he had a new channel, thanks, just subscribed. Sadler is so strong and is incredibly good at explaining stuff. I am trying to find this - what date was this Semi-Slav video please? Or might you provide a link pls?
TIA!
  
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Kerangali
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Re: Is the QGD Orthodox still allive?
Reply #14 - 09/22/22 at 06:23:52
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MNb wrote on 05/21/22 at 06:20:11:
If Kylemeister is right (statistics suggest that he is) a pretty solid repertoire can be constructed around 1.d4 d5 2.c4 c6 3.Nf3 Nf6 4.Nc3 e6 5.Bg5 h6 intending 6.Bh4 Be7 7.e3 O-O and 8...Nbd7 etc. The advantage of this move order is obvious: no Catalan, no Bf4 system, no Exchange (9.cxd5 Nxd5).

Relatedly, Sadler indicates in his Youtube opening series that computers consider the Be7 Botvinnik to be ok, ie:
1.d4 d5 2.c4 c6 3.Nf3 Nf6 4.Nc3 e6 5.Bg5 dxc4 4.e4 b5 5.e5 h6 6.Bh4 g5 7.Nxg5 hxg5 8.Bxg5 Be7 9.exf6 Bxf6 10.Bxf6 Qxf6.
This can be a useful addition to Semislav players, with fresh/simpler positions and (according to Sadler and his silicon friends) better King security.
  
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kylemeister
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Re: Is the QGD Orthodox still allive?
Reply #13 - 09/21/22 at 23:15:37
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FreeRepublic wrote on 09/21/22 at 22:40:25:
One certainly cannot ignore anything Carlsen plays. However, doesn't White usually continue the battle for the tempo by playing 7.Rc1 or 7.Qc2?

7. Bd3 seems to be the most common move when Black has played ...c6 instead of ...0-0.  With ...0-0 instead of ...c6, the traditional recipe against 7. Bd3 is 7...dc 8. Bxc4 c5 9. 0-0 a6.

(a bit more on that last line here)
https://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/chess/YaBB.pl?num=1575662136
  
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FreeRepublic
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Re: Is the QGD Orthodox still allive?
Reply #12 - 09/21/22 at 22:40:25
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One certainly cannot ignore anything Carlsen plays. However, doesn't White usually continue the battle for the tempo by playing 7.Rc1 or 7.Qc2?
  
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kylemeister
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Re: Is the QGD Orthodox still allive?
Reply #11 - 09/21/22 at 18:30:03
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By the way, I noticed that in a current rapid event, Carlsen has been playing (not for the first time) some Orthodox(-like) stuff with early ...c6 and delayed castling. (In the second game he eschews the main line 12...e5, but 12...b6 is also an ancient book move -- for instance in the 1940s Fine gave it as bad, citing a game Capablanca-Steiner.)


[Event "Julius Baer GenCup Prelim"]
[Site "chess24.com INT"]
[Date "2022.09.18"]
[Round "4"]
[White "Le,Quang Liem"]
[Black "Carlsen,M"]
[Result "0-1"]
[WhiteElo "2728"]
[BlackElo "2861"]
[EventDate "2022.09.18"]
[ECO "D30"]

1. d4 d5 2. c4 e6 3. Nf3 c6 4. Bg5 Nf6 5. e3 Be7 6. Nc3 Nbd7 7. Bd3 h6 8. Bh4 dxc4 9. Bxc4 b5 10. Bd3 Bb7 11. e4 b4 12. Na4 c5 13. e5 Nd5 14. Bxe7 Qxe7 15. dxc5 O-O 16. Rc1 Rac8 17. O-O Nf4 18. Qd2 Nxe5 19. Be4 Bxe4 20. Qxf4 Nxf3+ 21. gxf3 Bc6 22. b3 Rfd8 23. Rfd1 Rxd1+ 24. Rxd1 Bxa4 25. bxa4 Rxc5 26. Kf1 a5 27. Qe4 Qg5 28. h4 Qf5 29. Qxf5 Rxf5 30. Rd8+ Kh7 31. Kg2
Kg6 32. Rb8 Rd5 33. Kg3 Kf6 34. Rb7 Ke5 35. Rxf7 Rd2 36. f4+ Kd4 37. f5 exf5 38. Rxf5 Rxa2 39. Rxa5 b3 40. Ra7 b2 41. Rb7 Ra3+ 42. Kg4 Rxa4 43. Kf5 Kc3 0-1

[Event "Julius Baer GenCup Prelim"]
[Site "chess24.com INT"]
[Date "2022.09.21"]
[Round "14"]
[White "Wojtaszek,R"]
[Black "Carlsen,M"]
[Result "0-1"]
[WhiteElo "2696"]
[BlackElo "2861"]
[EventDate "2022.09.18"]
[ECO "D67"]

1. d4 d5 2. c4 e6 3. Nf3 c6 4. Bg5 Nf6 5. Nc3 Be7 6. e3 Nbd7 7. Bd3 dxc4 8. Bxc4 Nd5 9. Bxe7 Qxe7 10. Rc1 O-O 11. O-O Nxc3 12. Rxc3 b6 13. Bd3 c5 14. Qc2 h6 15. Bh7+ Kh8 16. Be4 Rb8 17. Rc1 a5 18. h3 Rd8 19. a3 Ba6 20. Bc6 cxd4 21. Nxd4 Rbc8 22. Be4 Rxc3 23. Qxc3 Qf8 24. Rd1 Nf6 25. Bf3 Rc8 26. Qd2 Rd8 27. Qe1 Kg8 28. b4 axb4 29. axb4 Bc4 30. Nc6 Rd6 31. Ne5 Rxd1 32. Qxd1 Bd5 33. Qd4 Bxf3 34. gxf3 Nd5 35. b5 Qa3 36. Kg2 Qb3 37. Qd3 Qxd3 38. Nxd3 Kf8 39. Ne5 Ke7 40. Nc4 Kd7 41. f4 Kc7 42. Kf3 Nc3 43. Na3 Kd6 44. Nc4+ Kc5 45. Ne5 f5 46. Nd7+ Kxb5 47. Nf8 Kc4 48. Nxe6 b5 49. Nxg7 b4 50. Nxf5 b3 51. Nd4 b2 52. Nc2 Nb5 0-1
  
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FreeRepublic
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Re: Is the QGD Orthodox still allive?
Reply #10 - 05/21/22 at 12:28:41
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MNb wrote on 05/21/22 at 06:20:11:
1.d4 d5 2.c4 c6 3.Nf3 Nf6 4.Nc3 e6 5.Bg5 h6


Black will also have to consider 5e3 (Meran primarily) and Exchange Slav. It's a perfectly viable system, just a different system.
  
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MNb
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Re: Is the QGD Orthodox still allive?
Reply #9 - 05/21/22 at 06:20:11
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If Kylemeister is right (statistics suggest that he is) a pretty solid repertoire can be constructed around 1.d4 d5 2.c4 c6 3.Nf3 Nf6 4.Nc3 e6 5.Bg5 h6 intending 6.Bh4 Be7 7.e3 O-O and 8...Nbd7 etc. The advantage of this move order is obvious: no Catalan, no Bf4 system, no Exchange (9.cxd5 Nxd5).
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
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FreeRepublic
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Re: Is the QGD Orthodox still allive?
Reply #8 - 05/21/22 at 03:38:50
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kylemeister wrote on 05/21/22 at 00:55:32:
Or Black could play ye olde 7...c5 ("the point of Black's counterplay" -- Chess Openings: Theory and Practice, 1964).  This Manhattan/Westphalian (as I know of it) variation made an appearance (in the order 5. Bg5 Bb4 6. e3 c5 7. cd ed) in the latest 1 d4 d5 2 c4 update (Bai-Ding).


Thanks for pointing out that game.

I used to think the Manhattan/Westphalian should be an improved Cambridge Springs variation because Black plays ...c5 in one move. In the CS Black plays ...c6 and (sometimes) ...c5. It turns out it's not so simple.

Perhaps best is to combine the Tartakover (1d4 d5 2c4 e6 3Nc3 Nf6 4Bg5 Be7, etc.) with the Ragozin/Vienna/Manhatan (1d4 d5 2c4 e6 3Nc6 Nf6 4Nf3 Bb4, etc.). Sure it takes some work, but what doesn't? Also, I'd rather "wing it" in a variation that was basically equal, then in one that was not.
  
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kylemeister
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Re: Is the QGD Orthodox still allive?
Reply #7 - 05/21/22 at 00:55:32
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FreeRepublic wrote on 05/20/22 at 23:22:23:
Also, White can throw in the exchange of central pawns at some point, for example, 1. d4 d5 2. c4 e6 3. Nc3 Nf6 4. Nf3 Nbd7 5. cd5 ed5 6. Bg5. Here the main moves are 6...Be7 or 6...c6, usually reaching the same positions. However a lively alternative is 6...Bb4 7. e3 h6, Richard Pert has some pertinent analysis in his book on the Ragozin.

Or Black could play ye olde 7...c5 ("the point of Black's counterplay" -- Chess Openings: Theory and Practice, 1964).  This Manhattan/Westphalian (as I know of it) variation made an appearance (in the order 5. Bg5 Bb4 6. e3 c5 7. cd ed) in the latest 1 d4 d5 2 c4 update (Bai-Ding).
  
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FreeRepublic
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Re: Is the QGD Orthodox still allive?
Reply #6 - 05/21/22 at 00:48:52
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FreeRepublic wrote on 05/20/22 at 23:22:23:
1. d4 d5 2. c4 e6 3. Nc3 Nf6 4. Nf3 Be7 5. Bf4 is a major system that is outside of the Orthodox framework.


Well perhaps I should revise that. Black could play 1. d4 d5 2. c4 e6 3. Nc3 Nf6 4. Nf3 Be7 5. Bf4 O-O 6. e3 c6. This looks to my eyes very much like the QGD Orthodox variation, though obviously it differs in the placement of the the white king bishop.

What I have seen recommended is 6...c5, 6...Nbd7, and 6...b6. These too bear some resemblance to the QGD Orthodox. However I tend think of these as distinct lines.
  
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Re: Is the QGD Orthodox still allive?
Reply #5 - 05/20/22 at 23:22:23
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The QGD Orthodox has been recommended in some recent books. It's fairly robust in the sense that Black can play it against (and with) a variety of move orders. However White still has alternatives that avoid it altogether.

1. d4 d5 2. c4 e6 3. Nc3 Nf6 4. Nf3 Be7 5. Bf4 is a major system that is outside of the Orthodox framework. However you could try 1. d4 d5 2. c4 e6 3. Nc3 Nf6 4. Nf3 Nbd7 5. Bf4 dc4, which can lead to a lively game.

Also, White can throw in the exchange of central pawns at some point, for example, 1. d4 d5 2. c4 e6 3. Nc3 Nf6 4. Nf3 Nbd7 5. cd5 ed5 6. Bg5. Here the main moves are 6...Be7 or 6...c6, usually reaching the same positions. However a lively alternative is 6...Bb4 7. e3 h6, Richard Pert has some pertinent analysis in his book on the Ragozin.
  
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kylemeister
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Re: Is the QGD Orthodox still allive?
Reply #4 - 05/20/22 at 22:17:43
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MNb wrote on 05/20/22 at 20:37:58:
The big problem for Black is 7.Qc2 Nbd7 8.Rad1. The Meran plan doesn't work then because White can prevent ...c5. It doesn't seem to matter whether Black plays ...h6 or not.

One thing I notice here is that after 1. d4 d5 2. c4 e6 3. Nc3 Nf6 4. Bg5 Be7 5. e3 0-0 6. Nf3 Nbd7 7. Qc2 h6 8. Bh4 c6 9. Rd1, the maybe last-ever edition of ECO-D gave the calm approach of 9...b6 10. Bd3 Bb7 11. 0-0 Rc8 as leading to equality.  (Side note: one of the cited games was by Fabian Doettling, whom I know of as a QGD player and whom I recently noticed playing again.)
  
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