Latest Updates:
Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Is the QGD Orthodox still allive? (Read 4908 times)
Nernstian59
Full Member
***
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 193
Joined: 12/15/21
Re: Is the QGD Orthodox still allive?
Reply #21 - 07/11/24 at 02:35:20
Post Tools
The question posed by doefmat in the initial post of this thread about replacing the Botvinnik/Moscow (or Cambridge Springs) with the Orthodox Variation is addressed by Milos Pavlovic in his recent book, The Modernized Semi-Slav. After opening with 1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 c6 4.Nf3 Nf6, he suggests meeting 5.Bg5 with 5...Nbd7 with 6.e3 Be7 to follow.  Thus Pavlovic declines to go into the Botvinnik with 5...dxc4 and into the Cambridge Springs with 6...Qa5. After 6...Be7, the game has transposed into a form of the Orthodox Variation (or perhaps more accurately it's "Orthodox-like", to use kylemeister's term from Reply #11). At this point, Pavlovic notes, "We have transposed to the QGD with the c-pawn on c6 sooner than in the standard lines. The idea is now being played by some very strong players who are investigating the possibilities in a line which older theory had dismissed." Indeed, a Chessbase search flags this as a "hot' variation with strong players such as Artemiev, Caruana, Dubov, and particularly Carlsen trying it in recent years.

Pavlovic considers a number of White 7th moves here. I found 7.Bd3 to be of particular interest. Pavlovic's recommendation is 7...dxc4 8.Bxc4 Nd5 - Capablanca's freeing maneuver - or least something similar! In its usual form, it and the preceding ...dxc4 would occur after the additional moves Rc1 and ...0-0. Pavolvic is aware of the classical antecedent, saying "In this section we examine the method Capablanca employed in his match with Alekhine but in a slightly different form". I guess I'll need to rethink what I said in another thread last year about such classical themes becoming shunted aside in modern chess.   

At any rate, Pavlovic continues: 9.Bxe7 Qxe7 10.Rc1 0-0 11.0-0 Nxc3 12.Rxc3. A transposition to the classic form of the Orthodox has now occurred, and 12...e5 would be the traditional continuation here. Pavlovic instead recommends 12...b6. He hasn't mentioned it yet, but he is following the Wojtaszek-Carlsen game given by kylemeister in Reply #11. Theory has tended to frown on 12...b6, citing Capablanca-H.Steiner, Budapest 1928. That game continued 13.Qc2 c5 14.dxc5 Nxc5 15.b4 Na6 16.a3±. In exploring 12...b6 a bit more, I found that Pachman, in his 1970s Queen's Gambit, described the move as "unusual, but not bad", with his analysis following Capablanca-Steiner until improving with 15...Nd7 16.a3 Nf6=. I found an improvement for White in ECO D (2nd edition 1987), which gave analysis credited to Neishtadt: 15...Nd7 16.Bd3 Nf6 17.a3 Bd7 18.Rc7 Rfc8 19.Ba6!⩲. Further searching found Neishtadt's line cited in multiple books, including Schilller's Queen's Gambit Declined Orthodox Variation (1984), Polagayevsky's Queen's Gambit: Orthodox Defence (1988), and NCO (1999). Even Pachman changed his mind, quoting Neishtadt's line in his Das Damengambit (1993). I wasn't able to find any analysis of 12...b6 in more recent works.  Apparently this lack of coverage stems from the relative unpopularity of the Orthodox and the growing prevalence of repertoire books recommending other QGD lines for Black.

I should mention that ECO D also has an interesting footnote in Neishtadt's line : 17.Rc7!? (sacrificing the b-pawn instead of protecting it with 17.a3) 17...Qxb4 18.Ne5∞. It turns out that the pawn sac is Stockfish's preferred move, although the reply after 17...Qxb4 is 18.Ng5±, which is evaluated by the engine as stronger than Neishtadt's line.  This pawn sac hasn't been tried in practice yet.

Getting back to Pavlovic, he follows Wojtaszek-Carlsen to move 28, ending with the comment, "With an even game. White was never able to build any kind of initiative". Although he covers a few White alternatives on move 18, Pavlovic doesn't do any analysis between moves 10 and 18. Thus, he doesn't mention the theoretical counter to 12...b6. As FreeRepublic (Reply #12) says, one can't ignore anything Carlsen plays, and I would suspect Magnus had something in mind against the theoretical line. However, it seems a bit of an oversight for Pavlovic not to say anything.

Touching briefly on other White seventh moves, Pavlovic does cover 7.cxd5, leading to the Exchange Variation.  He also deals with 7.Rc1 and 7.Qc2 (both mentioned by FreeRepublic in Reply #12). The rook move is met by 7...Ne4 (Pavlovic refers to this as "the Lasker method", and it does resemble the Lasker Variation) 8.Bxe7 Qxe7 9.Bd3 Nxc3 10.Rxc3 dxc4.  Now 11.Bxc4 transposes to his analysis of 7.Bd3, while Pavlovic analyses 11.Rxc4 0-0 to equality. Pavlovic notes that 7.Qc2 "is considered the critical move to respond to Black's early ...c6". His analysis follows the Carlsen game from the February 2023 ChessPublishing update referred to by kylemeister in Reply #20. (Caruana-Carlsen, Titled Tuesday Chess.com Int blitz 31.1.2023). Pavlovic ends his analysis on move 21 with the evaluation, "Black is fine", though here again, he just gives a string of bare moves without comment after move 14.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
kylemeister
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 4929
Location: USA
Joined: 10/24/05
Re: Is the QGD Orthodox still allive?
Reply #20 - 02/16/23 at 02:55:04
Post Tools
kylemeister wrote on 05/20/22 at 22:17:43:
One thing I notice here is that after 1. d4 d5 2. c4 e6 3. Nc3 Nf6 4. Bg5 Be7 5. e3 0-0 6. Nf3 Nbd7 7. Qc2 h6 8. Bh4 c6 9. Rd1, the maybe last-ever edition of ECO-D gave the calm approach of 9...b6 10. Bd3 Bb7 11. 0-0 Rc8 as leading to equality.  (Side note: one of the cited games was by Fabian Doettling, whom I know of as a QGD player and whom I recently noticed playing again.)

I see via the February update that Carlsen has now played like that in Titled Tuesday, but with the immediate 11...c5.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
RosemarysBaby
YaBB Newbies
*
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 48
Joined: 08/29/22
Re: Is the QGD Orthodox still allive?
Reply #19 - 01/10/23 at 10:09:47
Post Tools
MNb wrote on 05/20/22 at 20:37:58:
The big problem for Black is 7.Qc2 Nbd7 8.Rad1. The Meran plan doesn't work then because White can prevent ...c5. It doesn't seem to matter whether Black plays ...h6 or not.


Including h6 Black could also try this idea that I peeped in some Anish rapid game:
7... h6 8.Bh4 c6 9.Rd1 Ne8
The repositioning of the knight to d6 allows some extra pressure on c4. If white follows 10.Bg3 the bishop can be hunted with Nd6->Nf5 and maybe there is also something to Qa5->Ne4. A trade on e7 would breathe life into the e5 and c5 breaks.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
kylemeister
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 4929
Location: USA
Joined: 10/24/05
Re: Is the QGD Orthodox still allive?
Reply #18 - 09/22/22 at 16:00:05
Post Tools
fjd wrote on 09/22/22 at 11:17:53:
...b6 is the main move in the version with ...h6 in (reached from the Lasker Variation) although I suppose that makes a difference here.

I believe ...e5 in the Lasker version was once considered inferior, but apparently that was overturned.
https://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/chess/YaBB.pl?num=1645633520/7#7
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Kerangali
Full Member
***
Offline


I am every one and every
zero

Posts: 167
Joined: 02/12/22
Re: Is the QGD Orthodox still allive?
Reply #17 - 09/22/22 at 12:16:54
Post Tools
Bibs wrote on 09/22/22 at 10:55:23:
Kerangali wrote on 09/22/22 at 06:23:52:
MNb wrote on 05/21/22 at 06:20:11:
If Kylemeister is right (statistics suggest that he is) a pretty solid repertoire can be constructed around 1.d4 d5 2.c4 c6 3.Nf3 Nf6 4.Nc3 e6 5.Bg5 h6 intending 6.Bh4 Be7 7.e3 O-O and 8...Nbd7 etc. The advantage of this move order is obvious: no Catalan, no Bf4 system, no Exchange (9.cxd5 Nxd5).

Relatedly, Sadler indicates in his Youtube opening series that computers consider the Be7 Botvinnik to be ok, ie:
1.d4 d5 2.c4 c6 3.Nf3 Nf6 4.Nc3 e6 5.Bg5 dxc4 4.e4 b5 5.e5 h6 6.Bh4 g5 7.Nxg5 hxg5 8.Bxg5 Be7 9.exf6 Bxf6 10.Bxf6 Qxf6.
This can be a useful addition to Semislav players, with fresh/simpler positions and (according to Sadler and his silicon friends) better King security.


Oh wow, didn't know he had a new channel, thanks, just subscribed. Sadler is so strong and is incredibly good at explaining stuff. I am trying to find this - what date was this Semi-Slav video please? Or might you provide a link pls?
TIA!

It's in his Introduction to the Silicon Road channel, starting here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KjxRf-3_6cY. He explores openings with computers and has 10 videos on Stockfish openings, including the Botvinnik gambit (I'll try to find this bit later). I remember great ideas for White against Caro-Kann  and Noteboom. He aso notices that computers :
a) play the KID with White if allowed, but refuse the Gruenfeld with 3.h4
b) play the Philidor with Black rather than the Pirc/Modern when given the choice.
Said he also attached PGN but I didn't check.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
fjd
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 551
Location: Ottawa
Joined: 09/22/16
Re: Is the QGD Orthodox still allive?
Reply #16 - 09/22/22 at 11:17:53
Post Tools
kylemeister wrote on 09/21/22 at 18:30:03:
In the second game he eschews the main line 12...e5, but 12...b6 is also an ancient book move -- for instance in the 1940s Fine gave it as bad, citing a game Capablanca-Steiner.


...b6 is the main move in the version with ...h6 in (reached from the Lasker Variation) although I suppose that makes a difference here.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Bibs
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 2338
Joined: 10/24/06
Re: Is the QGD Orthodox still allive?
Reply #15 - 09/22/22 at 10:55:23
Post Tools
Kerangali wrote on 09/22/22 at 06:23:52:
MNb wrote on 05/21/22 at 06:20:11:
If Kylemeister is right (statistics suggest that he is) a pretty solid repertoire can be constructed around 1.d4 d5 2.c4 c6 3.Nf3 Nf6 4.Nc3 e6 5.Bg5 h6 intending 6.Bh4 Be7 7.e3 O-O and 8...Nbd7 etc. The advantage of this move order is obvious: no Catalan, no Bf4 system, no Exchange (9.cxd5 Nxd5).

Relatedly, Sadler indicates in his Youtube opening series that computers consider the Be7 Botvinnik to be ok, ie:
1.d4 d5 2.c4 c6 3.Nf3 Nf6 4.Nc3 e6 5.Bg5 dxc4 4.e4 b5 5.e5 h6 6.Bh4 g5 7.Nxg5 hxg5 8.Bxg5 Be7 9.exf6 Bxf6 10.Bxf6 Qxf6.
This can be a useful addition to Semislav players, with fresh/simpler positions and (according to Sadler and his silicon friends) better King security.


Oh wow, didn't know he had a new channel, thanks, just subscribed. Sadler is so strong and is incredibly good at explaining stuff. I am trying to find this - what date was this Semi-Slav video please? Or might you provide a link pls?
TIA!
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Kerangali
Full Member
***
Offline


I am every one and every
zero

Posts: 167
Joined: 02/12/22
Re: Is the QGD Orthodox still allive?
Reply #14 - 09/22/22 at 06:23:52
Post Tools
MNb wrote on 05/21/22 at 06:20:11:
If Kylemeister is right (statistics suggest that he is) a pretty solid repertoire can be constructed around 1.d4 d5 2.c4 c6 3.Nf3 Nf6 4.Nc3 e6 5.Bg5 h6 intending 6.Bh4 Be7 7.e3 O-O and 8...Nbd7 etc. The advantage of this move order is obvious: no Catalan, no Bf4 system, no Exchange (9.cxd5 Nxd5).

Relatedly, Sadler indicates in his Youtube opening series that computers consider the Be7 Botvinnik to be ok, ie:
1.d4 d5 2.c4 c6 3.Nf3 Nf6 4.Nc3 e6 5.Bg5 dxc4 4.e4 b5 5.e5 h6 6.Bh4 g5 7.Nxg5 hxg5 8.Bxg5 Be7 9.exf6 Bxf6 10.Bxf6 Qxf6.
This can be a useful addition to Semislav players, with fresh/simpler positions and (according to Sadler and his silicon friends) better King security.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
kylemeister
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 4929
Location: USA
Joined: 10/24/05
Re: Is the QGD Orthodox still allive?
Reply #13 - 09/21/22 at 23:15:37
Post Tools
FreeRepublic wrote on 09/21/22 at 22:40:25:
One certainly cannot ignore anything Carlsen plays. However, doesn't White usually continue the battle for the tempo by playing 7.Rc1 or 7.Qc2?

7. Bd3 seems to be the most common move when Black has played ...c6 instead of ...0-0.  With ...0-0 instead of ...c6, the traditional recipe against 7. Bd3 is 7...dc 8. Bxc4 c5 9. 0-0 a6.

(a bit more on that last line here)
https://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/chess/YaBB.pl?num=1575662136
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
FreeRepublic
God Member
*****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 784
Location: Georgia
Joined: 06/08/17
Gender: Male
Re: Is the QGD Orthodox still allive?
Reply #12 - 09/21/22 at 22:40:25
Post Tools
One certainly cannot ignore anything Carlsen plays. However, doesn't White usually continue the battle for the tempo by playing 7.Rc1 or 7.Qc2?
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
kylemeister
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 4929
Location: USA
Joined: 10/24/05
Re: Is the QGD Orthodox still allive?
Reply #11 - 09/21/22 at 18:30:03
Post Tools
By the way, I noticed that in a current rapid event, Carlsen has been playing (not for the first time) some Orthodox(-like) stuff with early ...c6 and delayed castling. (In the second game he eschews the main line 12...e5, but 12...b6 is also an ancient book move -- for instance in the 1940s Fine gave it as bad, citing a game Capablanca-Steiner.)


[Event "Julius Baer GenCup Prelim"]
[Site "chess24.com INT"]
[Date "2022.09.18"]
[Round "4"]
[White "Le,Quang Liem"]
[Black "Carlsen,M"]
[Result "0-1"]
[WhiteElo "2728"]
[BlackElo "2861"]
[EventDate "2022.09.18"]
[ECO "D30"]

1. d4 d5 2. c4 e6 3. Nf3 c6 4. Bg5 Nf6 5. e3 Be7 6. Nc3 Nbd7 7. Bd3 h6 8. Bh4 dxc4 9. Bxc4 b5 10. Bd3 Bb7 11. e4 b4 12. Na4 c5 13. e5 Nd5 14. Bxe7 Qxe7 15. dxc5 O-O 16. Rc1 Rac8 17. O-O Nf4 18. Qd2 Nxe5 19. Be4 Bxe4 20. Qxf4 Nxf3+ 21. gxf3 Bc6 22. b3 Rfd8 23. Rfd1 Rxd1+ 24. Rxd1 Bxa4 25. bxa4 Rxc5 26. Kf1 a5 27. Qe4 Qg5 28. h4 Qf5 29. Qxf5 Rxf5 30. Rd8+ Kh7 31. Kg2
Kg6 32. Rb8 Rd5 33. Kg3 Kf6 34. Rb7 Ke5 35. Rxf7 Rd2 36. f4+ Kd4 37. f5 exf5 38. Rxf5 Rxa2 39. Rxa5 b3 40. Ra7 b2 41. Rb7 Ra3+ 42. Kg4 Rxa4 43. Kf5 Kc3 0-1

[Event "Julius Baer GenCup Prelim"]
[Site "chess24.com INT"]
[Date "2022.09.21"]
[Round "14"]
[White "Wojtaszek,R"]
[Black "Carlsen,M"]
[Result "0-1"]
[WhiteElo "2696"]
[BlackElo "2861"]
[EventDate "2022.09.18"]
[ECO "D67"]

1. d4 d5 2. c4 e6 3. Nf3 c6 4. Bg5 Nf6 5. Nc3 Be7 6. e3 Nbd7 7. Bd3 dxc4 8. Bxc4 Nd5 9. Bxe7 Qxe7 10. Rc1 O-O 11. O-O Nxc3 12. Rxc3 b6 13. Bd3 c5 14. Qc2 h6 15. Bh7+ Kh8 16. Be4 Rb8 17. Rc1 a5 18. h3 Rd8 19. a3 Ba6 20. Bc6 cxd4 21. Nxd4 Rbc8 22. Be4 Rxc3 23. Qxc3 Qf8 24. Rd1 Nf6 25. Bf3 Rc8 26. Qd2 Rd8 27. Qe1 Kg8 28. b4 axb4 29. axb4 Bc4 30. Nc6 Rd6 31. Ne5 Rxd1 32. Qxd1 Bd5 33. Qd4 Bxf3 34. gxf3 Nd5 35. b5 Qa3 36. Kg2 Qb3 37. Qd3 Qxd3 38. Nxd3 Kf8 39. Ne5 Ke7 40. Nc4 Kd7 41. f4 Kc7 42. Kf3 Nc3 43. Na3 Kd6 44. Nc4+ Kc5 45. Ne5 f5 46. Nd7+ Kxb5 47. Nf8 Kc4 48. Nxe6 b5 49. Nxg7 b4 50. Nxf5 b3 51. Nd4 b2 52. Nc2 Nb5 0-1
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
FreeRepublic
God Member
*****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 784
Location: Georgia
Joined: 06/08/17
Gender: Male
Re: Is the QGD Orthodox still allive?
Reply #10 - 05/21/22 at 12:28:41
Post Tools
MNb wrote on 05/21/22 at 06:20:11:
1.d4 d5 2.c4 c6 3.Nf3 Nf6 4.Nc3 e6 5.Bg5 h6


Black will also have to consider 5e3 (Meran primarily) and Exchange Slav. It's a perfectly viable system, just a different system.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MNb
God Member
*****
Offline


Rudolf Spielmann forever

Posts: 10758
Location: Moengo
Joined: 01/05/04
Gender: Male
Re: Is the QGD Orthodox still allive?
Reply #9 - 05/21/22 at 06:20:11
Post Tools
If Kylemeister is right (statistics suggest that he is) a pretty solid repertoire can be constructed around 1.d4 d5 2.c4 c6 3.Nf3 Nf6 4.Nc3 e6 5.Bg5 h6 intending 6.Bh4 Be7 7.e3 O-O and 8...Nbd7 etc. The advantage of this move order is obvious: no Catalan, no Bf4 system, no Exchange (9.cxd5 Nxd5).
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
GC Lichtenberg
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
FreeRepublic
God Member
*****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 784
Location: Georgia
Joined: 06/08/17
Gender: Male
Re: Is the QGD Orthodox still allive?
Reply #8 - 05/21/22 at 03:38:50
Post Tools
kylemeister wrote on 05/21/22 at 00:55:32:
Or Black could play ye olde 7...c5 ("the point of Black's counterplay" -- Chess Openings: Theory and Practice, 1964).  This Manhattan/Westphalian (as I know of it) variation made an appearance (in the order 5. Bg5 Bb4 6. e3 c5 7. cd ed) in the latest 1 d4 d5 2 c4 update (Bai-Ding).


Thanks for pointing out that game.

I used to think the Manhattan/Westphalian should be an improved Cambridge Springs variation because Black plays ...c5 in one move. In the CS Black plays ...c6 and (sometimes) ...c5. It turns out it's not so simple.

Perhaps best is to combine the Tartakover (1d4 d5 2c4 e6 3Nc3 Nf6 4Bg5 Be7, etc.) with the Ragozin/Vienna/Manhatan (1d4 d5 2c4 e6 3Nc6 Nf6 4Nf3 Bb4, etc.). Sure it takes some work, but what doesn't? Also, I'd rather "wing it" in a variation that was basically equal, then in one that was not.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
kylemeister
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 4929
Location: USA
Joined: 10/24/05
Re: Is the QGD Orthodox still allive?
Reply #7 - 05/21/22 at 00:55:32
Post Tools
FreeRepublic wrote on 05/20/22 at 23:22:23:

Also, White can throw in the exchange of central pawns at some point, for example, 1. d4 d5 2. c4 e6 3. Nc3 Nf6 4. Nf3 Nbd7 5. cd5 ed5 6. Bg5. Here the main moves are 6...Be7 or 6...c6, usually reaching the same positions. However a lively alternative is 6...Bb4 7. e3 h6, Richard Pert has some pertinent analysis in his book on the Ragozin.

Or Black could play ye olde 7...c5 ("the point of Black's counterplay" -- Chess Openings: Theory and Practice, 1964).  This Manhattan/Westphalian (as I know of it) variation made an appearance (in the order 5. Bg5 Bb4 6. e3 c5 7. cd ed) in the latest 1 d4 d5 2 c4 update (Bai-Ding).
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
FreeRepublic
God Member
*****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 784
Location: Georgia
Joined: 06/08/17
Gender: Male
Re: Is the QGD Orthodox still allive?
Reply #6 - 05/21/22 at 00:48:52
Post Tools
FreeRepublic wrote on 05/20/22 at 23:22:23:
1. d4 d5 2. c4 e6 3. Nc3 Nf6 4. Nf3 Be7 5. Bf4 is a major system that is outside of the Orthodox framework.


Well perhaps I should revise that. Black could play 1. d4 d5 2. c4 e6 3. Nc3 Nf6 4. Nf3 Be7 5. Bf4 O-O 6. e3 c6. This looks to my eyes very much like the QGD Orthodox variation, though obviously it differs in the placement of the the white king bishop.

What I have seen recommended is 6...c5, 6...Nbd7, and 6...b6. These too bear some resemblance to the QGD Orthodox. However I tend think of these as distinct lines.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
FreeRepublic
God Member
*****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 784
Location: Georgia
Joined: 06/08/17
Gender: Male
Re: Is the QGD Orthodox still allive?
Reply #5 - 05/20/22 at 23:22:23
Post Tools
The QGD Orthodox has been recommended in some recent books. It's fairly robust in the sense that Black can play it against (and with) a variety of move orders. However White still has alternatives that avoid it altogether.

1. d4 d5 2. c4 e6 3. Nc3 Nf6 4. Nf3 Be7 5. Bf4 is a major system that is outside of the Orthodox framework. However you could try 1. d4 d5 2. c4 e6 3. Nc3 Nf6 4. Nf3 Nbd7 5. Bf4 dc4, which can lead to a lively game.

Also, White can throw in the exchange of central pawns at some point, for example, 1. d4 d5 2. c4 e6 3. Nc3 Nf6 4. Nf3 Nbd7 5. cd5 ed5 6. Bg5. Here the main moves are 6...Be7 or 6...c6, usually reaching the same positions. However a lively alternative is 6...Bb4 7. e3 h6, Richard Pert has some pertinent analysis in his book on the Ragozin.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
kylemeister
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 4929
Location: USA
Joined: 10/24/05
Re: Is the QGD Orthodox still allive?
Reply #4 - 05/20/22 at 22:17:43
Post Tools
MNb wrote on 05/20/22 at 20:37:58:
The big problem for Black is 7.Qc2 Nbd7 8.Rad1. The Meran plan doesn't work then because White can prevent ...c5. It doesn't seem to matter whether Black plays ...h6 or not.

One thing I notice here is that after 1. d4 d5 2. c4 e6 3. Nc3 Nf6 4. Bg5 Be7 5. e3 0-0 6. Nf3 Nbd7 7. Qc2 h6 8. Bh4 c6 9. Rd1, the maybe last-ever edition of ECO-D gave the calm approach of 9...b6 10. Bd3 Bb7 11. 0-0 Rc8 as leading to equality.  (Side note: one of the cited games was by Fabian Doettling, whom I know of as a QGD player and whom I recently noticed playing again.)
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MNb
God Member
*****
Offline


Rudolf Spielmann forever

Posts: 10758
Location: Moengo
Joined: 01/05/04
Gender: Male
Re: Is the QGD Orthodox still allive?
Reply #3 - 05/20/22 at 20:37:58
Post Tools
The big problem for Black is 7.Qc2 Nbd7 8.Rad1. The Meran plan doesn't work then because White can prevent ...c5. It doesn't seem to matter whether Black plays ...h6 or not.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
GC Lichtenberg
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
emary
Full Member
***
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 147
Joined: 07/26/08
Re: Is the QGD Orthodox still allive?
Reply #2 - 05/20/22 at 18:31:16
Post Tools
Hi doefmat, 

the Orthodox is maybe a little worse for Black but very, very solid. 
If you prefer nonforcing play the Orthodox is certainly possible but I think there are better options.   

Nethertheless I would strongly advice that you stick to the Semislav instead of switching to the Orthodox. 
Shankland reaches the Semislav via 1.d4 d5 2.c4 c6. 
If you change to the Orthodox you have to start with 1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6. 
So everything you have already learned about the sidelines on your way to   
the  Semislav is in vain. 

The Cambridge Springs is a tricky opening, if you study Shankland you should score very well at your level. And Shankland has very interesting ideas how to respond to an early cxd5 in the Cambridge Springs. 

If the Cambridge Springs is not acceptable for you, than there are some 
other possibilities: 

1) Use 5...h6 as a "dragon", 
ie 
1.d4 d5 2.c4 c6 3.Nf3 Nf6 4.Nc3 e6 5.Bg5 h6 6.Bh4 Be7 changing to a Pseudo-Orthodox at last. 
Most White players will be afraid of the demanding Anti-Moskau-Gambit (6...g5 followed by 7...dxc4). So they will prefer  6.Bxf6 which Black can answer very solid. 

2) Go for the Botwinnik-Variation with 5...dxc4. This is also covered by Shankland. If White comes superficially prepared he could easily go wrong. 
Of course you have to learn by heart quite a few lines. I have played the Botwinnik myself and with very reasonable results. If White tries to bail out, very often he is simply worse. 

3) Play 
1.d4 d5 2.c4 c6 3.Nf3 Nf6 4.Nc3 e6 5.Bg5 Be7 
this is worse than 1) but still very playable. 

To get a small advantage in the Bg5-Be7-Semislav White has to play the opening very precise. 
As kylemeister has already mentioned a plan with c5 is not optimal, because Black has c7-c6 in, already. 

But instead you maybe have dxc4, b5 with tempo, a6 and a timely c5 
ala Meran. 

Bryan Paulsen has written a book about the complete Bg5-Semislav (at Everyman-Chess). This is no repertoire book but tries to give the complete picture. 
Now it is somewhat dated but the only source about the Be7-Semislav I know of. 

If you play the Orthodox instead of the Semislav, you have to be ready for the Catalan, Bf4-systems and the Exchange-variation after 2...e6. 

Btw a triangle-move-order d5c6e6 delaying Nf6 could be a way to avoid Bg5-systems, but this deserves another post.   

  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
kylemeister
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 4929
Location: USA
Joined: 10/24/05
Re: Is the QGD Orthodox still allive?
Reply #1 - 05/20/22 at 16:40:07
Post Tools
I dare say there is nothing that clearly refutes the Orthodox, though perhaps White can get a slight advantage.  Playing it via the Semi-Slav may be suboptimal due to the early ...c6.  (For example on 1. d4 d5 2. c4 e6 3. Nc3 Nf6 4. Bg5 Be7 5. e3 0-0 6. Nf3 Nbd7 7. Qc2 the traditional answer is 7...c5.)
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
doefmat
Full Member
***
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 101
Joined: 04/03/17
Is the QGD Orthodox still allive?
05/20/22 at 10:44:51
Post Tools
Right now I play the Semi-Slav using Shankland's course where he goes for the Cambridge Springs against Bg5 instead of the Botvinnik/Moscow sharp stuff. I'm around 1500

I was wondering if I could replace that with the QGD orthodox. I just bought a book on Alekhine's games. The orthodox seems like a very historical rich opening where I can learn a lot from.

I see it is not popular at all. Is there a line that clearly refutes it? I know everything is playable at my level but I'm just curious.
  

Chesspub; where people devote their whole life to find novelties on move 26 just to blunder on move 27
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Bookmarks: del.icio.us Digg Facebook Google Google+ Linked in reddit StumbleUpon Twitter Yahoo