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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) 6.Bh6 (Read 4235 times)
Confused_by_Theory
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Re: 6.Bh6
Reply #16 - 11/23/22 at 04:11:11
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Hi.

FYI I just had a otb game that went:
1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf4 3.Nc3 g6 4.Be3 Bg7 5.Qd2 c6 6.Bh6 Bxh6 7.Qxh6 e5 8.0-0-0 Qe7 9.dxe5 dxe5 10.h3 Nbd7 11.g4!?
Neither me nor my opponent had any idea what was going on after this. He thought it looked natural. I found it hard to believe it was preferable to developing a piece. Both showed lack of understanding at various points. I got somewhat lucky. My opponent enabled me to get an attacking position without doing much and I won nicely.
11...b5 12.Bg2 Qf8 13.Qd2 Qc5 14.f4 0-0 15.f5 Nb6 16.Qg5 Kg7 17.Rd3 b4 18.Nd1 Ba6 19.Rd2 Nc4 20.Rf2 Rad8 21.Qh4 Rxd1+ 22.Kxd1 Qe3 23.c3 Rd8+ 24.Kc2 Qd3+ 25.Kc1 Qd1++ 0-1

Have a nice day.
  
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Re: 6.Bh6
Reply #15 - 11/01/22 at 03:02:09
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Hi.

Just to write something on:
1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Be3 Bg7 5.Qd2 c6 6.Bh6 Bxh6 7.Qxh6 e5 8.dxe5
As well. Since I said I would. It's somewhat hard to get to grips with but I think with the help of correspondence practice that has developed over the years it shouldn't be to hard. I will attach a .pgn as well with the correspondence games in the line so far. Some history is that five years ago this was discussed here on chesspub forum and coincidentally only after that correspondence games start appearing. I'll try to give some kind of summary of the various continuations and games played below:

1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Be3 Bg7 5.Qd2 c6 6.Bh6 Bxh6 7.Qxh6 e5 8.Nf3 Qe7 9.dxe5 dxe5 10.h3
Has been seen a few times. This keeps the game somewhat fluid but seems, judging from the games, strategically not very challenging.

One player tried
1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Be3 Bg7 5.Qd2 c6 6.Bh6 Bxh6 7.Qxh6 e5 8.Nf3 Qe7 9.dxe5 dxe5 10.a4
Basically pushing a pawn and hoping it will be able to do something useful later. It kinda worked because he got some pressure, yet black probably played a bit to passively.

Moving on to the main continuation of 
1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Be3 Bg7 5.Qd2 c6 6.Bh6 Bxh6 7.Qxh6 e5 8.Nf3 Qe7 9.dxe5 dxe5 10.Bc4
We have seen a variety of ideas shown here since this was brought up and discussed on chesspub in 2017. Contrary to lines discussed then one player actually went:
10...a5!?
This does not chase the bishop like 10...b5. It still prepares to do so though; mainly considering that the bishop wants to retreat to b3 but it can now be hit with a5-a4 at some point. If white goes for just trying to take the h-pawn the point behind having played a5 becomes very clear:
11.Ng5?! Rf8 12.Nxh7 Nxh7 13.Qxh7 Qb4 14.Bb3 a4
Here white can sac the piece on f7 to get a couple of pawns and avoid immediate loss, but he is not fighting for advantage after that.
11.0-0 b5 12.Be2 or 11.h3 b5 12.Bd3!? Nbd7 are also possible.
You can argue black will have some micro problems to solve with getting castled and his queenside advanced pawns could become weak at some point. It seems to me like it is not clear how white is going to create pressure though.
11.a3
Was tried in the game. Instead:
11.a4!? Nbd7 12.Ng5!? 
It's again hard to say if white should go for this or play more slowly. I can't say any route looks promising but the forcing way at least gives nominally better chances in an endgame.
12...Rf8 13.Nxh7 Nxh7 14.Qxh7 Qb4! 15.Bb3 Nc5 16.Qg7 Nxb3 17.cxb3 Be6 18.O-O-O Bxb3 19.Qxe5+ Qe7 20.Qxe7+ Kxe7 (+/=) to (=) black has decent compensation in the form of being able to get his pieces active and having a centralised king already. It seems unlikely white should be able to win against decent defence.
11...b5 12.Bb3
Seems best. Instead the game actually went 12.Ba2!? Ba6! but it looks to me like black's bishop move to a6 disturbs white a bit to much. That game was drawn.
12...Ba6!?
Is still possible. I gave this back in 2017 via the move order 10...b5 11.Bb3 b5 12.a3 Ba6 and thought white was probably a little bit better, but look at this for long enough with a modern computer and that assessment is probably going to start looking a bit optimistic. Still critical seems:
13.Ng5 Rf8 14.Nxh7 Nxh7 15.Qxh7 a4 16.Ba2 b4 17.axb4 Qxb4 18.Qh3 Qxb2 19.Kd2 Qb6 20.Qe3
Also possible is just transposing to 10...b5 11.Bb3 a5 12.a3 Nbd7 (or 12...Na6). Since 12.a4 is very possible here and that is quite a major continuation this may be a bit of a move order trick. That whole continuation can also be reached from 10...b5 11.Bb3 Nbd7 12.Ng5 Rf8 13.Nxh7 Nxh7 14.Qxh7 Nc5 15.Qh6 a5 16.a3
1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Be3 Bg7 5.Qd2 c6 6.Bh6 Bxh6 7.Qxh6 e5 8.Nf3 Qe7 9.dxe5 dxe5 10.Bc4 b5 11.Bb3 a5!? 12.a4 b4 13.Nb1 Na6
13...Nxe4!? was tried successfully in one game. White got some pressure but not more and the game was drawn in 45 moves.
Back in 2017 I suggested 13...Nbd7 14.Nbd2 Ba6 but with precise play this is probably bad after 15.Bc4. Instead though :
14...Nc5 transposes to 13...Na6. I don't neccessarily see the reason for one move order over the other but I could be missing something.
14.Nbd2 Nc5 15.Bc4
15.0-0 was tried in one game without any success. Draw in 34 moves.
15...Rf8!?
I don't know about this move. Black appears to just be able to go 15...Bg4!? directly and allow 16.Ng5 Rf8 17.Nxh7 Nxh7 18.Qxh7 O-O-O 19.Qh6 Rd4 20.c3 Rxc4! 21.Nxc4 Nd3+ 22.Kf1 Be6 23.Nxa5 bxc3 24.Qe3 cxb2. It should work just fine but maybe black simply thought this looked messy. On the other hand there were two black players who avoided this 15...Bg4 line so I don't really know, maybe I am missing something. In either case the mysterious rook move alternative looks fine.
16.Qe3 Bg4! (D)
By moving the rook to f8 in anticaption of white's Ng5 idea black effectively preempted the whole idea. In the two games that reached this position white just went home with the queen here. It wasn't really doing much anymore but after black's precise 16...Bg4 (again this idea) it is not entirely clear what white has achieved from the opening. Black's h-pawn still lives so there is no material advantage. Black cannot castle but the game looks likely to be very static and rooks may be exchanged on the d-file at some point, so it's probably not a big deal.

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1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Be3 Bg7 5.Qd2 c6 6.Bh6 Bxh6 7.Qxh6 e5 8.Nf3 Qe7 9.dxe5 dxe5 10.Bc4 b5 11.Bb3 Nbd7
Was basically the main line when we looked at this in 2017 and this (as well) has so far held up for black as well.
12.Ng5 Rf8 13.Nxh7 Nxh7 14.Qxh7 Nc5
14...a5!?
15.Qh6 
15.O-O a5 16.a3 Qg5!? 17.Rad1!? Nxb3 18.cxb3 Be6 19.Rd6 Ke7! looks fun and probably sufficient.
15...a5 16.a3 Be6
16...Nxb3 17.cxb3 Be6 18.Qe3 may not be so easy. Black lost the one correspondence game to get here. It is very grindy for white to convert anything like this though.
17.Bxe6 Nxe6 18.Qe3 O-O-O (D)
Both previously discussed main continuations of 19.0-0 Nd4 and 19.Qb6 Qc7 have been tried. In the Qb6 game black kindly agreed to replay some analysis made in the 4.Bf4 megathread from 2019 and tested one of the assessment regarding how white would have problems making use of his extra pawn after:
19.Qb6 Qc7 20.Qxc7+ Kxc7 21.Rd1 b4 22.axb4 axb4 23.Ne2 Nc5 24.f3 b3 25.Rd2 bxc2 26.Nc1 Ne6 27.Rxc2 Rd4
Black held without issues Smiley. In the other game:
19...Nd4 20.Rac1 f5 21.exf5 gxf5 22.Ne2 f4 23.Qh3+ Ne6 24.Rcd1 f3 25.Rxd8+
Was tried instead of 25.Nc1 or 25.Nc3 from the same analysis in the 4.Bf4 megathread. It didn't seem like a winning attempt and a draw was agreed shortly after. 25...Kxd8 26.Nc3 Ng5 27.Rd1+ Kc7 28.Qg3 fxg2 29.Kxg2

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That concludes what effectively became a walkthrough of black's alternatives after:
1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Be3 Bg7 5.Qd2 c6 6.Bh6 Bxh6 7.Qxh6

Please note I attached a file of correspondence games after:
1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Be3 Bg7 5.Qd2 c6 6.Bh6 Bxh6 7.Qxh6 e5 8.Nf3 Qe7 9.dxe5
many of which are referenced.

Have a nice day.
  
Pirc_6_Bh6_the_8_dxe5_exchange_line.pgn ( 5 KB | 63 Downloads )
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Re: 6.Bh6
Reply #14 - 10/07/22 at 14:37:48
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Hi again.

There is also another approach. If white goes:

1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Be3 Bg7 5.Qd2 c6 6.Bh6 Bxh6 7.Qxh6 e5 8.0-0-0 Qe7 9.Nf3!?
White does allow black's bishop to come out, but is that really fully equalising if white just goes for some space? Who knows...
9...Bg4
The critical way to play this and why black didn't go Nbd7 earlier.
10.d5 (D)

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Black has what looks like three moves.

10...a6
One of Black's most basic strategies for counterplay is pawn advances on the queenside so preparing this makes some sense.

10...c5!?
This is probably enough, but it is also not so easy to reach fully comfortable positions as black.
11.Rd3 Bxf3 12.Rxf3 Nbd7 13.Bb5 a6 14.Bc6!
14.Bxd7+ Nxd7 15.h4 Qf8 16.Qxf8+ Rxf8 17.h5 Ke7 18.Rfh3 c4 Is also possible, but black should be able to equalise with careful play.
14...O-O-O 15.Qh4 Rde8 16.Bxd7+ Nxd7 17.Qxe7 Rxe7 18.a4 (D)
Black will remain a bit cramped. White has g4 to clamp down a bit on the kingside as well. It should not be that much of an edge for white objectively though.

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Also possible is:
10...cxd5 11.Rxd5! Nbd7 12.Bb5 O-O-O 13.Rd2 Nb6 14.Qe3
But it seems hard to generate play as black in such a position. The dark squared bishop missing and black having castled queenside lessens the dynamism in the black position.

11.dxc6 Nxc6 12.Bc4 Bxf3
12...0-0-0 13. Rd2!? Kb8 14.Qe3 Seems more comfortable for white, but playable for black.
13.gxf3 Nd4 14.Kb1 O-O-O
14...Nxf3 15.Ne2!? With more than enough compensation due to all the holes in black's position.
15.Qe3 Kb8 White is somewhat more comfortable.

Edit: I'll post something about the remaining 8.dxe5 (or 8.Nf3 and 9.dxe5) based approaches later, maybe tomorrow. It still seems critical to me and as I noted in a previous post there have been some developments since it was last discussed on chesspub.

Have a nice day.
  
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Re: 6.Bh6
Reply #13 - 10/07/22 at 13:57:34
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Hi.

I forgot about adding some more lines here after 7...e5. Basically it's a rich set of positions to explore and at least in correspondence they have been doing so for some time now. I'll briefly mention non-dxe5 based approaches and then move on. Basically after:

1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Be3 Bg7 5.Qd2 c6 6.Bh6 Bxh6 7.Qxh6 e5
It's not exactly clear if white should even move his knight to f3 or go for a f2-f4 based plan with:
8.0-0-0 Qe7
8..Nbd7 is also playable, but it also sort of foregoes any hope of Bg4 and actual pressure on white's centre all 31 correspondence games here feature the queen move instead.
9.Be2
9.a3!? or 9.h3!? are also possible. It's a little bit funny to me actually... Marin made an observation long ago that in the Pirc these kinds of small pawn moves are often more dangerous than proper ones. This seems to confirm this sentiment very well; because here white can choose either a3 or h3 and both seem annoying Grin. Here are some games:

[Event "WS/M/838"]
[Site "ICCF"]
[Date "2022.01.29"]
[Round "-"]
[White "Remde, Alexander"]
[Black "Ribaudo, Jayme"]
[Result "1-0"]
[WhiteElo "2192"]
[BlackElo "2201"]

1.d4 Nf6 2.Bf4 g6 3.Nc3 Bg7 4.e4 d6 5.Qd2 c6 6.Bh6 Bxh6 7.Qxh6 e5 8.O-O-O 
Qe7 9.a3 Nbd7 10.Nf3 a5 11.a4 exd4 12.Nxd4 Nc5 13.Bc4 Be6 14.Bd5 Ng4 15.
Qd2 O-O 16.f3 Ne5 17.Nxe6 fxe6 18.Ba2 Rad8 19.f4 Ng4 20.h3 Nf6 21.Qe3 Rde8
22.Rhe1 Nfd7 23.g4 Kh8 1-0

[Event "DE15A pr 38"]
[Site "ICCF"]
[Date "2021.04.05"]
[Round "-"]
[White "Polishchuk, Aleksandr Feodosievich"]
[Black "Morihama, Nicolau"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[WhiteElo "2316"]
[BlackElo "2296"]

1.d4 d6 2.e4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Bf4 Bg7 5.Qd2 c6 6.Bh6 Bxh6 7.Qxh6 e5 8.O-O-O 
Qe7 9.h3 Nbd7 10.Nf3 b5 11.Bd3 Bb7 12.Rhe1 Nb6 13.a3 a6 14.Kb1 Nfd7 15.Be2
O-O-O 16.Qe3 Kb8 17.dxe5 dxe5 18.Nd2 Nc5 19.h4 f6 20.h5 Rhe8 21.b4 Nca4 
22.Nxa4 Nxa4 23.Nb3 Rxd1+ 24.Rxd1 f5 25.h6 f4 26.Qd3 c5 27.Nxc5 Nxc5 28.
bxc5 Qxc5 29.Qd6+ Qxd6 30.Rxd6 Bc8 31.a4 Kc7 32.Rf6 Be6 33.axb5 Kd8 34.
bxa6 Ke7 35.Rxe6+ Kxe6 36.Bc4+ Kd6 37.Bd5 Re7 38.c4 Rc7 39.Bb7 Kc5 40.Kc2 
Kb6 41.Kb3 Rd7 42.Kc3 Ka7 43.c5 g5 44.f3 Rd1 45.Bc8 Rg1 46.Kc4 Rxg2 47.Kd5
Kb8 48.Bd7 1/2-1/2

9...Nbd7 10.f4!? (D)

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Is the main continuation and Gawain Jones' recommendation in "1.e4 Coffeehouse Repertoire vol. 2" (Quality Chess 2021, see p.377). It has not really that successful though. Imo. it looks like white doesn't get that much pressure if black is exact.
[Event "BdF-75/ C (GER)"]
[Site "ICCF"]
[Date "2021.11.01"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Jones, Ian"]
[Black "Blösl, Sven"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[ECO "B07"]
[WhiteElo "2401"]
[BlackElo "2404"]
[PlyCount "45"]
[EventDate "2021.??.??"]

1. e4 d6 2. d4 Nf6 3. Nc3 g6 4. Be3 Bg7 5. Qd2 c6 6. Bh6 Bxh6 7.
Qxh6 e5 8. O-O-O Qe7 9. Be2 Nbd7 10. f4 b5 11. dxe5 dxe5 12. fxe5 Nxe5 13. h3
Nfd7 14. Nf3 a6 (14... Bb7 15. Nxe5 Qxe5 16. Bg4 Nf6 17. Rhf1 Nxg4 18. hxg4 b4
19. Nb1 c5 20. Nd2 O-O-O 21. Nc4 Qe7 22. e5 Bxg2 23. Nd6+ Kb8 24. Rg1 Bf3 25.
Rd3 Bb7 26. Qe3 c4 27. Rd4 h5 28. Re1 hxg4 29. Rxc4 Rd7 30. Rxb4 f5 31. Rxb7+
Rxb7 32. Nxb7 Kxb7 33. e6 a6 34. Qb3+ Ka7 35. Qc3 Rb8 36. a4 g5 37. Qd4+ Ka8
38. Qd5+ Ka7 39. Qxf5 g3 40. Qe5 g2 41. Qd4+ Ka8 42. b3 Re8 43. Qg4 Qb7 44. Re2
Qd5 45. c4 Qc6 46. Kb2 Kb8 47. Qxg5 Rxe6 48. Rxg2 Qd6 49. Rd2 Qe5+ 50. Qxe5+
Rxe5 51. b4 Kc7 52. Kc3 Re1 53. Rg2 Ra1 54. a5 Rb1 55. Rg6 Kb7 56. b5 axb5 57.
Rb6+ Ka7 58. cxb5 Ra1 59. Kb4 Rb1+ 60. Kc5 Rc1+ 61. Kd6 Rg1 62. Rc6 Rg6+ 63.
Kc5 Rg5+ 64. Kb4 Rg4+ 65. Rc4 Rg2 66. Rc7+ Kb8 67. Rd7 Kc8 68. Re7 Rg4+ 69. Kc5
Kb8 70. b6 Rg5+ 71. Kd6 Rg1 72. a6 Rd1+ 73. Kc5 Rc1+ 74. Kd4 Rd1+ 75. Kc3 Rd8
76. Kc4 Rf8 77. Kd5 Rg8 78. Re6 Rc8 79. Re5 Rf8 80. Kc6 Ka8 81. Kb5 Rb8 82. Rf5
{1-0 (82) Bukarin,M (2299)-Almeraya,E (2182) LSS 2017}) 15. Nxe5 (15. h4 Ng4
16. Qg7 Qf6 17. Qxf6 Ndxf6 18. Rd6 b4 19. e5 Nd7 20. Ne4 Ndxe5 21. Rd4 a5 22.
Nd6+ Ke7 23. Re1 Be6 24. Nxf7 Bxf7 25. Ng5 Nh6 26. Bf3 Kf6 27. Rd6+ Kf5 28. Be2
Kf4 29. Rd4+ Kg3 30. Ne4+ Kf4 31. Ng5+ Kg3 32. Ne4+ Kf4 33. Ng5+ {1/2-1/2 (33)
Szerlak,A (2398)-Blösl,S (2401) ICCF 2021}) 15... Qxe5 16. Rhe1 Nc5 17. Nd5 (
17. Bf3 Be6 18. Qe3 O-O 19. Nd5 cxd5 20. Qxc5 Qg5+ 21. Qe3 Qxe3+ 22. Rxe3 dxe4
23. Bxe4 Ra7 24. Ra3 Re8 25. Rd4 Kg7 26. Bd3 Rb8 27. Ra5 Rb6 28. a4 Rd7 29. Rb4
Rbd6 30. axb5 axb5 31. Raxb5 {1/2-1/2 (31) Praznik,N (2397)-Blösl,S (2256)
ICCF 2018}) 17... Bd7 18. Bf3 Na4 19. b3 Qb2+ 20. Kd2 O-O-O 21. bxa4 (21. Qe3
cxd5 22. bxa4 d4 23. Qb3 Qxb3 24. cxb3 bxa4 25. Rc1+ Kb7 26. bxa4 Kb6 27. Rc4
Ka5 28. Rc5+ Kxa4 29. Rec1 Bb5 30. Be2 d3 31. Bd1+ Ka3 32. Bb3 f6 33. R5c3 Rhf8
{1/2-1/2 (33) Nemec,Z (2291)-Fritsche,F (2376) LSS 2021}) 21... cxd5 22. exd5
Qd4+ (22... Rhe8 23. Re3 Qf6 24. Kc1 Qa1+ 25. Kd2 Qf6 26. Kc1 {1/2-1/2 (26)
Lounek,J (2474)-Nývlt,Z (2454) ICCF 2021}) 23. Kc1 1/2-1/2

Have a nice day.
  
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Re: 6.Bh6
Reply #12 - 06/20/22 at 17:02:08
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Hi.

Alright. So in 2019 on this very forum there was some fairly detailed discussion of:
1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Be3 Bg7 5.Qd2 c6 6.Bh6 Bxh6 7.Qxh6 e5 (D)
I want to say it looks like the most promising way of equalising.

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Already in "the Pirc in Black and White" by James Vigus (Everyman Chess, 2007, p.297) 7...e5 was mentioned as a possibility. A slightly cooperative continuation was given though in the form of:
8.dxe5 dxe5 9.Nf3 Qe7 10.Bc4 b5 11.Bb3 Be6
It's not that this move is bad exactly. It's just somewhat prospectless after say:
12.O-O Nbd7 13.Bxe6 Qxe6 14.h3
Black has a lot of small problems to solve in the position. Getting castled for example and not getting pressured by rooks on the d-line or some pawn break on the queenside. With very little own play such problems are not so fun to sit and figure out as black.

Leaving for now discussions of whether white's best is even to enter the position after 11.Bb3 (which Gawain Jones doesn't seem to think for example, but there are also interesting developments in his proposed line)... I will say the main moves discussed here on chesspub forum were 11...a5 and 11...Nbd7. Both actually are quite active. Getting the knight to c5 is highly useful for the black position. It can attack e4, swap itself for a bishop on b3 or even go Nxe6 if Be6 and Bxe6 have happened. The other try of pushing the a-pawn is directed towards provoking a weakening of the white structure; as white is more or less forced to make a square for the bishop on a2.

To give some idea of lines:
11...Nbd7 12.Ng5 Rf8 13.Nxh7 Nxh7 14.Qxh7 Nc5 15.Qh6 a5 16.a3 Be6 17.Bxe6 Nxe6 18.Qe3 0-0-0 seemed like an important line. It's actually not that easy to prove the value of the extra pawn. Black has lost a pawn but gotten his position mostly in order in the meantime. I remember making some long analysis on 19.0-0 Nd4 for example and having a lot of lines go very deep without necessarily clarifying very quickly.
After...
11...a5 It was not even so easy to determine if white should go 12.a4 or 12.a3. White annoyingly seemed to keep the slightly better chances with exact play. It looks very much like I missed some things here though so I will probably get back on this. My main lines were:
11...a5 12.a4 b4 13.Nb1 Nbd7!? 
13...Ba6 14.Nbd2 Nbd7 15.Bc4 Bxc4 16.Nxc4 Qc5 17.Nfd2 Qxf2+ 18.Kxf2 Ng4+ 19.Ke2 Nxh6 20.Nb3 Ke7 21.Nbxa5 Ra6 22.Nb3
14.Nbd2 Nc5 15.O-O Ba6 16.Rfe1 Nh5 17.Bc4 f6 18.Red1
and
11...a5 12.a3 Ba6 13.Ng5 Rf8 14.Nxh7 Nxh7 15.Qxh7 a4 16.Ba2 b4 17.axb4 Qxb4 18.Qh3 Qxb2 19.Kd2!

Another thing, which I didn't realise years ago, is that black can go:
11...Na6
If he wants to confuse white (and maybe himself Cheesy) a little bit. But it seems not that special. Best should be:
12.Ng5
12.a3!? Nc5 13.Ba2 Be6!? 14.Bxe6 Nxe6 15.Nxe5!? Would be possible in this move order. Black would need to play precisely. White (who also would need to play precisely) gets some initiative. If this is not appetizing black could also go 13...Bg4, with a slightly worse position.
12...Rf8 13.Nxh7 Nxh7 14.Qxh7 Nc5
Transposing to lines reachable from 11...Nbd7.

Have a nice day.
  
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Re: 6.Bh6
Reply #11 - 06/18/22 at 22:11:04
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Hi.

1.e4 g6 2.d4 Bg7 3.Nc3 d6 4.Be3 Nf6 5.Qd2 c6 6.Bh6 O-O 7.h4 e5 8.Bxg7 Kxg7 9.h5 Qe7 10.Be2 b5 11.dxe5 dxe5 12.Nf3 Nxh5 13.Ng1!?
Seems a bit weird, yet playable as well. For completeness.

Overall it seems to me mainly like a concern for white what line out of all these (or not 7.h4) to play. I don't foresee black players going for 6...0-0 regularly even if 7.h4 is not quite as strong as Shaw's and Jones' books would have one think.

Going to try and post something on 6...Bxh6 7.Qxh6 e5 tomorrow. Should have done it earlier. Been quite busy. It's safe to say there are some developments there as well.

Have a nice day.
  
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Re: 6.Bh6
Reply #10 - 06/18/22 at 06:08:43
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Which is similar to my conclusion and the reason why I prefer 7.O-O-O.
  
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Re: 6.Bh6
Reply #9 - 06/17/22 at 21:27:01
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Hi.

Having looked some. It seems very hard to get an attack going if black remembers to not do Nbd7 as long as white can still do Bf1-Bc4+. White should likely seek some positional edge instead. There seem to be a lot of alternatives. Hard to say what's best.

1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Be3 Bg7 5.Qd2 c6 6.Bh6 O-O 7.h4 e5 8.Bxg7 Kxg7 9.h5 Qe7
9...Nbd7?! 10.hxg6 fxg6 11.Qh6+ Kh8
11...Kg8 12.O-O-O!? Qe7 13.Bc4+ Kh8 14.Nf3 White is going to be very comfortable.
12.O-O-O Rg8 13.Nf3 Qe7 14.Qd2 Rg7 15.a4 Also seems fairly comfortable for white.
10.hxg6
10.dxe5 dxe5 11.hxg6 fxg6 12.Qh6+ Kg8 13.Nf3 b5 14.a4 b4 15.Nd1 Ba6 16.Rh4 Is another idea.
10.Be2 b5!
10...Nbd7 11.g4!? b5 12.g5 Ne8 13.O-O-O I'd venture this should be good for white with his kingside space.
11.hxg6 fxg6 12.O-O-O b4
12...Nbd7 13.Nf3 b4 14.Qh6+ Kh8 15.Na4!? exd4 16.Nh4 Ne5 17.f4 Ng8 18.Nxg6+ Nxg6 19.Qxg6 Is active for white and he should keep some initiative.
13.dxe5 dxe5 14.Na4 Ba6 15.Bxa6 Nxa6 16.Nf3 Black has managed to exchange a piece here but white still has quite easy play. Hard to say if this better or worse than alternatives.
10...fxg6 11.Qh6+ Kg8 12.Bc4+ Be6 13.Bxe6+ Qxe6 14.O-O-O
14.Nf3 Will probably transpose.
14...Nbd7
14...Qe7 15.Nf3 Ng4!? 16.Qh4 Qxh4 17.Rxh4 h5 18.dxe5 dxe5 19.Rd6 Kg7 20.Ng5 Looks looser for black than it does for white.
15.Nf3 Qe7
15...exd4 16.Nxd4 Qe7 17.Qg5! Nd5 18.Qxe7 Nxe7 19.Nf3! Seems quite annoying for black.
16.Ng5 exd4 17.Rxd4
White is very comfortable, but black will probably still effectively resist the most active attempts by white.

Have a nice day.
  
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Re: 6.Bh6
Reply #8 - 06/06/22 at 06:53:04
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Now you can imagine my frustration. When playing the Argentinean Attack (after Black castling) I want to take my opponent down in flames! So I decided to prefer 7.O-O-O.
  
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Re: 6.Bh6
Reply #7 - 06/05/22 at 23:50:39
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Hi.

MNb wrote on 06/05/22 at 15:59:00:
Not by committing suicide (9...Nxh5), but with the Donner setup of course.
9...Qe7 and you can me happy when you find a way to break through.
9...Nbd7 is not easy to refute either, though it allows Bc4+, which White always welcomes.

Looking briefly at these, both do indeed look better than 9...Nxh5.
There is not much relevant practice or theory. What I could find in correspondence is below.
Jones stops at 9.h5. Shaw gives 14.Ng5 in the sequence below and ends the coverage a bit abruptly. After 14.Ng5 a6 15.almost any move 15...Ra7 black's position is making more sense than it has in a while imo. That's probably why the corr player deviated, however 14.Qg5 is not so clearly convincing either. He had to employ some weird plan to put pressure and black can almost certainly deviate at many points and should be able to find something better.

[Event "NED NK VR VET3 (NED)"]
[Site "ICCF"]
[Date "2017.12.31"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Peet, Willem"]
[Black "Sepers, Gerrit"]
[Result "1-0"]
[ECO "B07"]
[WhiteElo "2268"]
[BlackElo "2059"]
[PlyCount "97"]
[EventDate "2017.??.??"]

1. e4 d6 2. d4 Nf6 3. Nc3 g6 4. Be3 Bg7 5. Qd2 c6 6. Bh6 O-O 7. h4 e5 8. Bxg7
Kxg7 9. h5 Qe7 10. hxg6 fxg6 11. dxe5 dxe5 12. Qh6+ Kg8 13. Nf3 b5 14. Qg5 Re8
15. Rh4 a6 16. O-O-O Nbd7 17. Be2 Nc5 18. Rdh1 Qd6 19. a3 Ra7 20. Qe3 Rb7 21.
Ng5 Ne6 22. Nxe6 Bxe6 23. Qg5 Bc8 24. Rd1 Qe7 25. f3 Nd7 26. Qxe7 Rxe7 27. Na2
Rc7 28. Rhh1 Nc5 29. Kd2 Be6 30. Nc1 Kg7 31. Ke3 Na4 32. Nd3 Bg8 33. g3 c5 34.
f4 exf4+ 35. gxf4 c4 36. Ne5 Nxb2 37. Rd6 Re6 38. Rd8 Na4 39. Kd4 Rce7 40. Bg4
Re8 41. Rd7+ R6e7 42. f5 Bf7 43. Rxe7 Rxe7 44. Rg1 Kf6 45. fxg6 Bxg6 46. Nxg6
hxg6 47. e5+ Kf7 48. e6+ Kf6 49. Rf1+ 1-0

There seems quite a few other continuations to look at though and actually somewhat annoyingly, various different move sequences inside continuations that may or may not produce differences. I'll see if I can find something that looks promising.

Have a nice day.
  
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Re: 6.Bh6
Reply #6 - 06/05/22 at 15:59:00
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Not by committing suicide (9...Nxh5), but with the Donner setup of course.
9...Qe7 and you can make me happy when you find a way to break through.
9...Nbd7 is not easy to refute either, though it allows Bc4+, which White always welcomes.
« Last Edit: 06/06/22 at 06:47:58 by MNb »  
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Re: 6.Bh6
Reply #5 - 06/05/22 at 08:23:48
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Hi.

So how do you propose black combats Shaw's recommendation. With limited deviations along the way covered as well but basically:
1. e4 d6 2. d4 Nf6 3. Nc3 g6 4. Be3 Bg7 5. Qd2 c6 6. Bh6 0-0 7.h4 e5 8.Bxg7 Kxg7 9.h5
(Jones also recommends this, but he ends here)
9...Nxh5 10.Be2 exd4 11.Qxd4+ Nf6 12.0-0-0 Qe7 13.g4 h6 14.f4 c5 15.Qe3

It would be big news if 7.h4 was actually playable for black.

Have a nice day.
/CbT
  
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Re: 6.Bh6
Reply #4 - 06/01/22 at 15:15:47
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MNb wrote on 06/01/22 at 06:20:43:
As I've contributed a bit to that chapter in Dangerous Weapons I am in the position to contriadict "probably better". For several reasons IM Vigus wanted to make 5...O-O work, not 5...c6 6.Bh6 O-O. Imo it's far from clear which move order is better. As I researched this from White's point of view I have looked at lines where White postpones or even omits castling. The big problem is Donner's setup with e5, Qe7 and Nbd7, which is positionally strong as soon White has played Bh6 - the key move in this thread. IM Vigus gives an excellent explanation of the ideas behind Black's play. With all respect to GM Jones very nice repertoire book, he falls for "evaluate this as almost winning for White, but it's hardly so simple, since no breakthrough is possible with a major sacrifice" (IM Vigus in a somewhat different context). I've spend quite some hours on such positions and only can affirm this.
White's best might very well be the simple transposition 6.Bh6 O-O 7.O-O-O b5 8.f3 as Nbd7 runs into 9.Bxg7 Kxg7 10.e5! De la Villa Garcia-Garcia Campo, Benaresque 1998.


Confused_by_Theory wrote on 06/01/22 at 07:12:42:
Hi.

I don't really follow. If black actively allows: 
1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Be3 Bg7 5.Qd2 c6 6.Bh6 0-0 7.h4 that is another quite major thing to worry about (even though white doesn't have to go for it, sure)

I am far from conclusive, but White's chances don't convince me after ...e5 heading for the Donner setup.

Confused_by_Theory wrote on 06/01/22 at 07:12:42:
While if black goes:
1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Be3 Bg7 5.Qd2 0-0
It is going to be quite possible to avoid that position after both 6.Bh6 and 6.h4

Black will have to contend with 1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Be3 Bg7 5.Qd2 0-0 6.0-0-0 c6 7.Bh6 in both move orders. Don't you just go for the one that reduces white's options?

Regards
CbT

Like I wrote I looked at it from White's point of view.  Wink I see no benefit in taking up an extra option that apparently promises less. If that's the case the preferred move order might even be the one that offers White a chance to play a suboptimal setup.
Plus there is 1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Be3 Bg7 5.Qd2 O-O 6.O-O-O c6 7.h4, quite dangerous as well.
  
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Re: 6.Bh6
Reply #3 - 06/01/22 at 07:12:42
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Hi.

MNb wrote on 06/01/22 at 06:20:43:
As I've contributed a bit to that chapter in Dangerous Weapons I am in the position to contriadict "probably better". For several reasons IM Vigus wanted to make 5...O-O work, not 5...c6 6.Bh6 O-O. Imo it's far from clear which move order is better. As I researched this from White's point of view I have looked at lines where White postpones or even omits castling. The big problem is Donner's setup with e5, Qe7 and Nbd7, which is positionally strong as soon White has played Bh6 - the key move in this thread. IM Vigus gives an excellent explanation of the ideas behind Black's play. With all respect to GM Jones very nice repertoire book, he falls for "evaluate this as almost winning for White, but it's hardly so simple, since no breakthrough is possible with a major sacrifice" (IM Vigus in a somewhat different context). I've spend quite some hours on such positions and only can affirm this.
White's best might very well be the simple transposition 6.Bh6 O-O 7.O-O-O b5 8.f3 as Nbd7 runs into 9.Bxg7 Kxg7 10.e5! De la Villa Garcia-Garcia Campo, Benaresque 1998.

I don't really follow. If black actively allows: 
1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Be3 Bg7 5.Qd2 c6 6.Bh6 0-0 7.h4 that is another quite major thing to worry about (even though white doesn't have to go for it, sure)

While if black goes:
1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Be3 Bg7 5.Qd2 0-0
It is going to be quite possible to avoid that position after both 6.Bh6 and 6.h4

Black will have to contend with 1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Be3 Bg7 5.Qd2 0-0 6.0-0-0 c6 7.Bh6 in both move orders. Don't you just go for the one that reduces white's options?

Regards
CbT
  
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Re: 6.Bh6
Reply #2 - 06/01/22 at 06:20:43
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Confused_by_Theory wrote on 06/01/22 at 05:07:35:
Theory:
Black can either take with 6...Bxh6 or go 6...0-0. Castling at this point is somewhat extra risky though since white can go 7.h4 (See Jones' Coffeehouse repertoire vol. 2 p.376 or Shaw's Playing 1.e4 p.530). I will just refer to those sources on the matter. If black wants to castle short he is probably better off going 4...Bg7 and 5...0-0 without including c6 until move six or not at all. This has been recommended in Dangerous Weapons: The Pirc & Modern

As I've contributed a bit to that chapter in Dangerous Weapons I am in the position to contriadict "probably better". For several reasons IM Vigus wanted to make 5...O-O work, not 5...c6 6.Bh6 O-O. Imo it's far from clear which move order is better. As I researched this from White's point of view I have looked at lines where White postpones or even omits castling. The big problem is Donner's setup with e5, Qe7 and Nbd7, which is positionally strong as soon White has played Bh6 - the key move in this thread. IM Vigus gives an excellent explanation of the ideas behind Black's play. With all respect to GM Jones very nice repertoire book, he falls for "evaluate this as almost winning for White, but it's hardly so simple, since no breakthrough is possible with a major sacrifice" (IM Vigus in a somewhat different context). I've spend quite some hours on such positions and only can affirm this.
White's best might very well be the simple transposition 6.Bh6 O-O 7.O-O-O b5 8.f3 as Nbd7 runs into 9.Bxg7 Kxg7 10.e5! De la Villa Garcia-Garcia Campo, Benaresque 1998.
As for lines without ...c6, unfortunately for Black 4...Bg7 5.Qd2 O-O 6.O-O-O (more precise than 6.f3 e5) Nc6 (the only serious move, I think I have 100% against the rest without remembering any concrete theory) 7.f3 e5 8.Nge2 exd4 9.Nxd4 transposes to a variation of the Philidor Defense. It's convinclingly dealt with by GM Khalifman and IM Soloviov in their book on the Four Knights. I think White can do even better than what what they present.
Basically, if Black wants to castle kingside against the Argentinean Attack it's either ...c6 or nothiing.
All this makes CbT's contributions even more important, of course.
  
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