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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Is the Marshall Attack a draw? (Read 1963 times)
FreeRepublic
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Re: Is the Marshall Attack a draw?
Reply #13 - 08/28/22 at 17:17:29
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I think this has to be recast as the Marshall attack provides Black with full compensation for the pawn.

While the likelihood of a draw may be great at the professional level, anything can happen at lower levels. If anyone should revise their repertoire to avoid the Marshall, perhaps it is White.
  
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FreeRepublic
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Re: Is the Marshall Attack a draw?
Reply #12 - 08/27/22 at 17:20:26
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Volumes have been written about the Zaitsev variation and of course, I can not do it justice. Nevertheless, here's a sequence I find interesting:

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 a6 4. Ba4 Nf6 5. O-O Be7 6. Re1 b5 7. Bb3 d6 8. c3 O-O 9. h3 Bb7 10. d4 Re8 11. a3 Bf8 12. Nbd2 h6 13. Bc2.

Why 11.a3 and 13.Bc2? White wanted to place his bishop on c2 and avoid ...Nb4.

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13...d5 and 13...Nb8 have been played. White is probably still a little better but the there is a lot of play in the position.
  
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Kerangali
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Re: Is the Marshall Attack a draw?
Reply #11 - 08/27/22 at 09:14:12
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With 1.e4 e5, there's not much to do if White wants a draw (think d4-c3 gambits etc). But if we use 1...e5 against strong opponents worth to draw (and some other opening against others), we can threaten draw lines to reduce our repertoire and induce White into suboptimal variations. A bit like Mikhalevski playing the Open against Tier 1 opponents, and ...g6 Spanish against the rest.
  
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FreeRepublic
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Re: Is the Marshall Attack a draw?
Reply #10 - 08/27/22 at 00:51:50
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As far as I can tell the Marshall and Open Ruy are both in fine shape. However, as you say they are sharp and there is a lot of theory.

The Aronian (Cozio deferred?) takes the game into a new direction, as does the Schliemann.

Verify wrote on 08/03/22 at 17:50:55:
As a lifetime 1...e5 player, I can only admit that I have the same problem. When I grew up, the Ruy Lopez was still called the "Spanish Torture" but at least many systems have been considered playable against it. Today, I have the feeling that most of those systems are in bad theoretical shape (Tschigorin, Breyer, Karpov, Smyslow)


I think the Breyer still has a good reputation, though I'm not sure that it is for me. It seems to me that Black is just trying to hold on.

I've taken a preliminary look at material available at ChessPublishing on the Zaitsev system. It goes:
1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 a6 4. Ba4 Nf6 5. O-O Be7 6. Re1 b5 7. Bb3 d6 8.c3 O-O 9. h3 Bb7 10. d4 Re8
With the early pressure on e4, White is unable to complete the circuit Nbd2-f1-g3. Black seems to get good play. The only downside is that White can offer to repeat with 11Ng5 Rf8 12Nf3, etc.
  
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Re: Is the Marshall Attack a draw?
Reply #9 - 08/05/22 at 12:39:42
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FreeRepublic wrote on 08/04/22 at 18:17:54:
Verify wrote on 08/03/22 at 17:50:55:
As a lifetime 1...e5 player, I can only admit that I have the same problem. When I grew up, the Ruy Lopez was still called the "Spanish Torture" but at least many systems have been considered playable against it. Today, I have the feeling that most of those systems are in bad theoretical shape (Tschigorin, Breyer, Karpov, Smyslow) and you really have to study the absurdly sharp lines of the Marshall or Open Spanish with their huge body of theory. One of the reasons why I am considering to give up 1...e5.


I don't know the status of the Zaitsev system. It might be worth considering.

Of course, there is the Berlin, but I assume that you've already considered and rejected that variation.

There are several other lines that you might want to consider.

Jonathan Tait recommends the Schliemann, 3...f5, in his book.

Dangerous Weapons - Ruy Lopez advances the Aronian variation, 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 a6 4. Ba4 Nge7. It has been played and analyzed by Victor Mikehalevski, here on ChessPublishing.

There are a few ...Bc5 lines. That's all I will say as I never obtained a firm grasp on those lines.

Dangerous Weapons - !e4 e5 looks at Bird's variation, 3...Nd4. It might be worth a go.



Thanks! Might be worth it checking out these modern lines Smiley I considered the Berlib but its not my cup of tea Roll Eyes
  

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FreeRepublic
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Re: Is the Marshall Attack a draw?
Reply #8 - 08/04/22 at 18:17:54
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Verify wrote on 08/03/22 at 17:50:55:
As a lifetime 1...e5 player, I can only admit that I have the same problem. When I grew up, the Ruy Lopez was still called the "Spanish Torture" but at least many systems have been considered playable against it. Today, I have the feeling that most of those systems are in bad theoretical shape (Tschigorin, Breyer, Karpov, Smyslow) and you really have to study the absurdly sharp lines of the Marshall or Open Spanish with their huge body of theory. One of the reasons why I am considering to give up 1...e5.


I don't know the status of the Zaitsev system. It might be worth considering.

Of course, there is the Berlin, but I assume that you've already considered and rejected that variation.

There are several other lines that you might want to consider.

Jonathan Tait recommends the Schliemann, 3...f5, in his book.

Dangerous Weapons - Ruy Lopez advances the Aronian variation, 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 a6 4. Ba4 Nge7. It has been played and analyzed by Victor Mikehalevski, here on ChessPublishing.

There are a few ...Bc5 lines. That's all I will say as I never obtained a firm grasp on those lines.

Dangerous Weapons - !e4 e5 looks at Bird's variation, 3...Nd4. It might be worth a go.

  
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Re: Is the Marshall Attack a draw?
Reply #7 - 08/03/22 at 17:50:55
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As a lifetime 1...e5 player, I can only admit that I have the same problem. When I grew up, the Ruy Lopez was still called the "Spanish Torture" but at least many systems have been considered playable against it. Today, I have the feeling that most of those systems are in bad theoretical shape (Tschigorin, Breyer, Karpov, Smyslow) and you really have to study the absurdly sharp lines of the Marshall or Open Spanish with their huge body of theory. One of the reasons why I am considering to give up 1...e5.
  

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Re: Is the Marshall Attack a draw?
Reply #6 - 07/19/22 at 04:01:13
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I can't comment except repeat what some of the top players say, which is there are anti-marshalls now because the Marshall is a known draw. Svidler is one who says that.
  

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Re: Is the Marshall Attack a draw?
Reply #5 - 06/13/22 at 23:55:33
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Nice find!
  
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FreeRepublic
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Re: Is the Marshall Attack a draw?
Reply #4 - 06/13/22 at 16:13:23
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Chess is a very rich game and there is a well established pattern of failing to appreciate it's depth and breadth. The famous Capablanca-Marshall game gave the Marshall countergambit a "dubious" reputation that lasted for decades. Today 8...d5 may claim to have overtaken 8...d6 as the main line.

Nunn and Harding, 1989 chapter four cover "Other White 15th Moves" - 15Bxd5 and 15Re4. First however, they cover four other other 15th moves, including 15Qf3.

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 a6 4. Ba4 Nf6 5. O-O Be7 6. Re1 b5 7. Bb3 O-O 8.c3 d5 9. exd5 Nxd5 10. Nxe5 Nxe5 11. Rxe5 c6 12. d4 Bd6 13. Re1 Qh4 14. g3 Qh3 15. Qf3 "This line is very doubtful, since white just sets himself up for ...Bf3."

15...Bg4 16. Qg2 Qh5 17. Be3 Bf3 18. Qf1 f5 19. Nd2 f4 20.
Nf3 fe3. This complex position eventually led to a win for black. However Stockfish14 suggests the unlikely looking move 20Bxf4. More on this later.

ECO C 4th Edition note 86 only shows white transposing to another line with 17Bd5.

Brunello wrote Attacking the Spanish, 2009, covering the Schliemann, Gajewsky, and Marshall. After covering the Anti-Marshall, he moves on to the Marshall main lines, then other Marshall lines to include 15Qf3. Pg 261, "This commits the queen to an exposed position rather early."

15. Qf3 Bg4 16. Qg2 Qh5 17. Be3 Bf3 18. Qf1 f5 19. Nd2 f4 20.
Bf4 Rf4 21. Nf3 Rf3 22. Bd1 Qf7 23. Bf3 Qf3. "The position is balanced." My engine prefers white here slightly.

ChessPublishing does not examine 17...Bf3. Instead 17...Rae8 is looked at in detail. Stockfish shows 17...a5 =, however White won the two games in my data base.

Altogether I see no definitive way to punish 15Qf3. It's not an unreasonable way for white to play. However, I would be surprised if it proved to be the long sought after refutation of the Marshall counter gambit.
  
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FreeRepublic
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Re: Is the Marshall Attack a draw?
Reply #3 - 06/13/22 at 01:44:48
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DiscipleOfKeres wrote on 06/12/22 at 18:05:08:
seem to lead to a draw. ... I see 12.d4 Bd6 13. Re1 Qh4 14. g3 Qh3 15. Qf3


It seems like this has almost fallen through the cracks. I checked three sources. One did not have 15Qf3. One covered it briefly, and perhaps not so well. ChessPub does the best job continuing: 15. Qf3 Bg4 16. Qg2 Qh5 17. Be3 Rae8 with further game play and about equal chances.
  
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DiscipleOfKeres
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Re: Is the Marshall Attack a draw?
Reply #2 - 06/12/22 at 18:05:08
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FreeRepublic wrote on 06/12/22 at 13:10:36:
The Marshall leads to a draw in some theoretical lines. Has this been your experience in practice? I find that few people know theory.

Also, one can look for cracks in theory. The only forced draw line that comes immediately to mind is:
8.c3 d5 9. ed5 Nd5 10. Ne5 Ne5 11. Re5 c6 12. Bd5 cd5 13. d4 Bd6 14. Re3 Qh4 15. h3 Qf4 16. Re5 Qf6 17. Re3 Qf4
Perhaps 15...g5 or 15...Bd7 deserve exploring

The open variation is one of many alternatives.


Yes, this has been experience in practice. With the 11...c6 lines, I see 12.d4 Bd6 13. Re1 Qh4 14. g3 Qh3 15. Qf3
  
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FreeRepublic
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Re: Is the Marshall Attack a draw?
Reply #1 - 06/12/22 at 13:10:36
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The Marshall leads to a draw in some theoretical lines. Has this been your experience in practice? I find that few people know theory.

Also, one can look for cracks in theory. The only forced draw line that comes immediately to mind is:
8.c3 d5 9. ed5 Nd5 10. Ne5 Ne5 11. Re5 c6 12. Bd5 cd5 13. d4 Bd6 14. Re3 Qh4 15. h3 Qf4 16. Re5 Qf6 17. Re3 Qf4
Perhaps 15...g5 or 15...Bd7 deserve exploring

The open variation is one of many alternatives.
  
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DiscipleOfKeres
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Is the Marshall Attack a draw?
06/12/22 at 01:39:35
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I have been experimenting with the Marshall as of late.

Most master games in the three main lines 11...c6, 11...Nf6, and 11...Bb7 seem to lead to a draw.

While this isn't necessarily a bad result with black, especially against a higher rated opponent, one has to wonder if there are any lines that offer better winning chances.

Are there any ideas that haven't been explored as often (maybe 11...Nb6 or 11...Nf4), or should I just stick to the Chigorin variations? Any help would be appreciated!
  
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