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Normal Topic 1 c4 e5 2 Nc3 Nc6 3 e3 (Read 565 times)
MNb
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Re: 1 c4 e5 2 Nc3 Nc6 3 e3
Reply #6 - 08/06/22 at 06:24:57
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Nice, I wasn't aware of that. GM Larsen might have been a tad pessimistic, Black hasn't done badly after 5.Qc2. I found 5.Qb3 more difficult to meet - and thus learned that 1.e4 c5 2.Nc3 Nc6 3.f4 g6 4.Nf3 Bg7 5.Bb5 Qb6 is pretty good too.
Like Krudos I think setups with e3 and d4 very challenging. That no author has presented a convincing way to meet 1.e4 c5 2.Nc3 e6 3.f4 d5 doesn't help.

The bright side is that Tal's Gambit 1.e4 c5 2.f4 d5 3.exd5 Nf6 doesn't work as well with colours reversed after 2.Nc3 and 2.g3. However 1.c4 ed5 2.a3 f5 3.d4 and 2.e3 f5 3.d4 painfully illustrate AOC's point. Black has to avoid this.
  

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Re: 1 c4 e5 2 Nc3 Nc6 3 e3
Reply #5 - 08/05/22 at 18:50:11
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MNb wrote on 08/05/22 at 17:16:13:
In quite a few positions the extra tempo actually works against White. Compare 1.e4 c5 2.Nc3 Nc6 3.f4 g6 4.Nf3 Bg7 5.Bb5 Nd4 (considered best) with 1.c4 e5 2.Nc3 f5 3.g3 Nf6 4.Bg2 Bb4 when 5.Nd5 is far less impressive exactly because Black hasn't played ...Nc6 yet.

I'm reminded of Larsen writing that after 5. Qc2 "White's extra tempo becomes two tempos!".  He was comparing 1. e4 c5 2. f4 Nc6 3. Nf3 g6 4. Bb5 Qc7 5. d3 a6 6. Bxc6 Qxc6 to Ree-Larsen, Teeside 1972, which after 5. Qc2 went 5...Bxc3 (of course 5...d6 is unplayable) 6. Qxc3 d6 7. e3 0-0 8. Ne2 Qe8 9. b3 Nc6 10. Bb2.  Here he wrote, "Most masters would be reluctant to take the Black pieces now.  I did not like it much myself, played badly, and was lucky to draw."

Polugaevsky gave 5...Nc6 6. Qxf5 d6 7. Qb1 0-0 with compensation (not mentioned by Larsen).
  
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MNb
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Re: 1 c4 e5 2 Nc3 Nc6 3 e3
Reply #4 - 08/05/22 at 17:16:13
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an ordinary chessplayer wrote on 08/05/22 at 15:31:37:
White's extra tempo means ...f7-f5 is a weakness rather than the start of an "attack".

In quite a few positions the extra tempo actually works against White. Compare 1.e4 c5 2.Nc3 Nc6 3.f4 g6 4.Nf3 Bg7 5.Bb5 Nd4 (considered best) with 1.c4 e5 2.Nc3 f5 3.g3 Nf6 4.Bg2 Bb4 when 5.Nd5 is far less impressive exactly because Black hasn't played ...Nc6 yet.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
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Re: 1 c4 e5 2 Nc3 Nc6 3 e3
Reply #3 - 08/05/22 at 15:31:37
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MNb wrote on 08/05/22 at 06:07:05:
There is a lengthy thread on this forum about his book

https://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/chess/YaBB.pl?num=1479313621/all
Indeed one can see that Krudos posted there in 2018. I can't escape the feeling that Krudos already knows the answer to their own question.

After 1.e4 c5 2.Nc3 I have never been a fan of Grand Prix setups when black plays ...e7-e6 instead of ...g7-g6. Palliser (2007) Fighting the Anti-Sicilians gives good coverage which reinforces my view. As Larsen said (about the Grand Prix in general), sometimes the knight doesn't belong on c3.

I have the same bad feelings for 1.c4 e5 2.Nc3 Nc6 3.e3 f5. Best by far is 3...Nf6, but of course then it's some other English theory. If black really wants to enforce a reversed Grand Prix then 1.c4 e5 2.Nc3 f5 is the way to go, but I also don't have confidence in this. White's extra tempo means ...f7-f5 is a weakness rather than the start of an "attack".
  
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Re: 1 c4 e5 2 Nc3 Nc6 3 e3
Reply #2 - 08/05/22 at 06:07:12
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Hi.

1.c4 e5 2.Nc3 Nc6 3.e3 f5 4.d4
Seems a bit tough to play for black. There is no good way to resolve the tension for black, so perhaps 4...d6 to at least not have white resolve the tension favourably. Then however 5.b4 gives white a lot of space for not much effort.

1.c4 e5 2.Nc3 Nc6 3.e3 g6 4.d4
Is also annoying. I think I would even go 4...exd4 5.exd4 d6. An alternative seems to be 4...d6 but white can go 5.d5 Nce7 6.h4!? and it's not completely obvious if starting the typical kingside play with 6...f5 is going to be effective or lead to weaknesses. Probably somewhere in between.

1.c4 e5 2.Nc3 Nc6 3.e3 Bb4
Seems playable, but giving up the bishop pair early is not very fun.
4.Nd5 Nf6 5.Nxb4 Nxb4 6.a3 Nc6 7.b4 d5 8.Bb2
There is probably some exact way to some roughly equal position or at worst a slight disadvantage, but it's not going to be fun to find.

Seems to me like
1.c4 e5 2.Nc3 Nc6 3.e3 Nf6
Looks safest. Then 4.d4 Bb4 5.Nf3 exd4 6.exd4 d5 has to be nothing special for white. Attempts to prevent black's freeing d5 move with 4.Qb3 look a bit artificial.

1.c4 e5 2.Nc3 Nc6 3.e3 Nge7 also looks decent.

Have a nice day.
  
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MNb
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Re: 1 c4 e5 2 Nc3 Nc6 3 e3
Reply #1 - 08/05/22 at 06:07:05
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IM Cummings doesn't mention Black's best move 4...Nf6. There is a lengthy thread on this forum about his book and I pointed this out. He gave a line he thought somewhat better for White. It runs 5.Nf3 d6 (Black should be wary to play ...e4, because it gives White a good French with colours reversed) 6.d5 Ne7 7.Be2 g6 8.O-O Bg7 9.Ng5 which looks playable for Black to me after O-O.
I actually prefer 1.c4 e5 2.Nc3 f5 because of 3.d4 exd4 4.Qxd4 Nf6! (also not given in the book) when 3.e3 d6 4.d4 Nd7 is an extra option for Black.
My view: White can play for an advantage, but only should expect a small one at most. Black should study this at home but can create counterchances with accurate play.

Later addition in answer to CfT underneath: for the space grabbing b2-b4 idea I refer to Panno-Ciocaltea, Olympiade 1970. Again you should compare the French. Black should try to get a decent version of the Steinitz Variation (1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5 Nfd7 5.f4) with colours reversed. The pawn being on d6 iso d5 helps Black.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
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1 c4 e5 2 Nc3 Nc6 3 e3
08/04/22 at 12:47:49
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What is the best way for Black to meet this line - it was David Cummings main recommendation in his English book as a way of avoiding a reverse Grand Prix attack?
Can Black play 3..f5 but how to meet 4 d4?
Robert Rijs does not cover this in his new Chessbase repertoire!
  
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