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Normal Topic New Qd3 Veresov Book (Read 2564 times)
Kerangali
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Re: New Qd3 Veresov Book
Reply #8 - 09/28/22 at 18:16:55
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So, has anyone gotten the book/course - or other recent sources - and knows what's trending for White in the 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nc3 d5 3.Bg5 Nbd7 4.Qd3 c5 line?
As posted in this thread, 5.0-0-0 c4 and 5.e4 cxd4 look quite OK for Black.
As for me, as fond as I am of 1.d4 d5 2.Nc3 c5, I realize I'm move-ordered (maybe for my own sake!) after 1.d4 Nf6 2.Bg5 d5 3.Nc3. Then 3...Nbd7 or 3...c5 look decent.
Finally, isn't 1.d4 d5/Nf6 2.Nc3 simply predated by 2.Bf4 nowadays? After 2.Nc3, it seems that White's best bet is with Bf4 and e3, which makes 2.Nc3 a bit unnecessary.
  
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Kerangali
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Re: New Qd3 Veresov Book
Reply #7 - 09/17/22 at 10:37:15
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an ordinary chessplayer wrote on 09/16/22 at 21:40:52:
1.d4 d5 2.Nc3 c5 3.e4 dxe4 4.d5 Nf6
I think it's a little early to be calling this "=". Obviously it's a reversed Albin; less obviously it's also a variation of the Blackmar-Diemer, one which does not have a great reputation for black: 1.d4 d5 2.e4 dxe4 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.f3 c5 5.d5. In the Veresov move order white has options of 5.f3 (reaching the same Blackmar-Diemer position), or some developing move (for example 5.Bf4 and 5.Bg5 are natural Albin-style moves, 5.Bc4 and 5.Nge2 are also plausible). Before declaring equality, we would at least need to inspect existing 5.f3 theory, and possibly make some improvement for black.

re 5.f3: I wasn't aware Black needed an improvement to claim equality. Simply 5...exf3 6.Nxf3 g6 intending Bg7,0-0,Qb6, Bf5 etc gives Black a lively game if White plays 0-0-0 and h4. But I'm no BDG specialist and their evaluation + current theory standing is welcome.
re 1.d4 d5 2.Nc3 c5: Not for 1.d4 d5 players who prefer to equalize without taking the chance of a sharp game. Still, this move can surprise Veresov players, and doesn't look bad at this point.
Back to OP:
re 1. d4 d5 2. Nc3 Nf6 3. Bg5 Nbd7 4. Qd3 c5: if 5.0-0-0 c4! is good for Black (as it looks), does White have to play 5.e4 instead, or 3.Bf4 ? 
re 1. d4 d5 2.Qd3: I'd be surprised if White could even maintain equality after 2...c5
  
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an ordinary chessplayer
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Re: New Qd3 Veresov Book
Reply #6 - 09/16/22 at 21:40:52
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1.d4 d5 2.Nc3 c5 3.e4 dxe4 4.d5 Nf6
I think it's a little early to be calling this "=". Obviously it's a reversed Albin; less obviously it's also a variation of the Blackmar-Diemer, one which does not have a great reputation for black: 1.d4 d5 2.e4 dxe4 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.f3 c5 5.d5. In the Veresov move order white has options of 5.f3 (reaching the same Blackmar-Diemer position), or some developing move (for example 5.Bf4 and 5.Bg5 are natural Albin-style moves, 5.Bc4 and 5.Nge2 are also plausible). Before declaring equality, we would at least need to inspect existing 5.f3 theory, and possibly make some improvement for black.
  
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Kerangali
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Re: New Qd3 Veresov Book
Reply #5 - 09/16/22 at 20:32:39
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@aoc: sorry, mixed up the early moves, thanks for pointing out.
I meant: 1. d4 d5 2.Nc3 c5 and now:
- if 3.e4 then 3...dxe4 4.d5 Nf6 =
- if 3.Bf4 Nc6 4.e4 etc

I'll try to edit my post if allowed. Post edited to start the main line with 3.Bf4 Nc6

As a Chigorin player, I noticed many years ago that 1.d4 d5 2.Nc3 c5 was playable/equal for Black (hope I'm not wrong!) and always came as a surprise for White. All this surfaced when @FizzySoda spoke of Veresov (ok) and reversed Chigorin (not sure). Yet, I'd be happy if 1.d4 d5 2.Nc3 c5 still holds !?
  
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Re: New Qd3 Veresov Book
Reply #4 - 09/16/22 at 18:44:06
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1.d4 d5 2.Nc3 c5 3.e4 Nc6 4.Bf4 Your parenthetical line "(or 4.e4 dxe4 5.d5 Nf6=)" has multiple issues, what did you intend to write?

To be honest, 1.d4 d5 2.Nc3 c5 looks way too sharp, not to mention unnecessary. Black still has good options after 2...Nf6. French players will find nothing wrong with 2...e6. And if black wants to avoid theory, 2...Bf5 is a very solid move. Way back in the day Lev Alburt (reformed Veresov player) even gave it an exclamation mark.

Finally, I don't understand what black is doing after 1.d4 d5 2.Nc3 c5 3.e4 Nc6 4.exd5.
  
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Kerangali
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Re: New Qd3 Veresov Book
Reply #3 - 09/16/22 at 16:13:10
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Reverse Chigorin (or reverse Albin) doesn't sound great, as the Chigorin is a react opening where Black need to double pawns somehow. However, Veresov players must know that after 1.d4 d5 2.Nc3 Black can play the solid 2...Nf6 3.Bg5 Nbd7 but also the funny 2...c5. Play often continues 3.Bf4 (or 3.e4 dxe4 4.d5 Nf6 =) 3...Nc6 4.e4 cxd4 5.exd5 dxc3 6.dxc6 Qxd1+ 7.Rxd1 bxc6 (not 7...cxb2? 8.Bb5 or 8.cxb7 and the game ends in tears and single digits) 8.Bc7. Here Black must be a bit careful (see diagram):
* * * * * * * *
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* * * * * * * *
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a) 8...Bb7 looks awkward after 9.bxc3 Nf6 10.Rb1 Bc8 but the position can become double-edged if Black is allowed to play Nd5 and Bg7
b) 8...Bg4 9.Nf3 looks OK (by computer) as long as Black plays 9...a5! to protect against Ba6-b7 
c) 8...e6 looks simplest, as Black can counter 9.Re8+ Ke7 10.bxc3 with 10...Nf6 11.Nf3 Nd5 12.Ba5 Bb7, and if White is more ambitious with 10.b3, Black can play 10...Nf6 and e.g. 11.Ne2 Nd5 12.Ba5 c5 13.g3 Bb7 with the plan of playing g6/Bg7/Rc8 and ...c4 while White regains the c3 pawn.

In fact the best bet for Veresov players may be the Prie/Jobava setups with d4 Nc3 and Bf4 instead of Bg5. I hope the move order with 1.d4 d5 2.Nc3 c5 3.Bf4 Nc6 is not suboptimal for Black regarding current Prie/Jobava theory, which I don't know?

EDITED to correct move order issues pointed out by @aoc
« Last Edit: 09/16/22 at 21:08:08 by Kerangali »  
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FizzySoda
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Re: New Qd3 Veresov Book
Reply #2 - 09/15/22 at 14:35:32
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I was looking through different variations on lichess.org with the engine...doesn't seem very fun. I'd say that this Qd3 and  c5-c4 for black reminds me of the french defense 7..Be7 line in the steinits Variation. White 0-0-0 too soon and black plays c5-c4 and then has a quick attack. 

I'm not such a fan of the liquidation following 5.e4. I guess that possibly spending a move with a3 instead of Qd3 and treating the position like a reversed Chigorin in which Black has played Nbd7 might be a good way to get an interesting game. 

After all, Black is just very solid in the Nbd7 lines.
  
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Kerangali
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Re: New Qd3 Veresov Book
Reply #1 - 09/14/22 at 07:01:55
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Or maybe 5.e4
I remember 5...cxd4 (the other move is 5...dxe4) 6.Bxf6 Nxf6 7.Qxd4 dxe4 8.Bb5+ Bd7 9.Bxd7+ Qxd7 10.Qxd7+ Kxd7 11.0-0-0+ Ke8 12.Re1 as leading to equality
  
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FizzySoda
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New Qd3 Veresov Book
09/13/22 at 14:12:08
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The Richter-Veresov Attack: Qd3 Variation
by Eric J. Fleischman 

https://forwardchess.com/product/the-richter--veresov-attack:-qd3-variation?sect...

I'll be curious to see what he recommends against the line: 

1. d4 d5 2. Nc3 Nf6 3. Bg5 Nbd7 4. Qd3 c5 5.0-0-0 c4!

Also, looks like he covers an early Qd3 on move 2.
  
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