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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Colle with 3...c5 4.Be2 (Read 3522 times)
fjd
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Re: Colle with 3...c5 4.Be2
Reply #11 - 12/19/22 at 08:59:14
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True but also given the four different possible first moves in the book, once you learn the Panov-Botvinnik you can also play 1.c4 c6 2.e4
  
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Confused_by_Theory
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Re: Colle with 3...c5 4.Be2
Reply #10 - 12/18/22 at 19:27:07
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Hi.

I think I finally understood that GM Smith recommends just transposing to the Tarrasch.
1.d4 d5 2.Nf3 c5 3.e3 Nf6 4.c4
Seems pretty reasonable apart from white probably having to learn a specific Tarrasch line and the Panov-Botvinnik Caro Kann as well.

Regards.
/ CbT
  
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Confused_by_Theory
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Re: Colle with 3...c5 4.Be2
Reply #9 - 12/07/22 at 09:42:04
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Hi.

I got the Axel Smith e3 book before christmas Cool

Also somewhat unluckily played a rated game as white the day after getting the book, without having had time to look. Got demolished in:
1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 g6 3.e3 Bg7 4.c4 0-0 5.Be2 d6 6.Nc3 Nbd7 7.0-0 e5 8.Qc2 Qe7
Turns out when I open the book GM Smith dissuades from playing specifically this line unprepared (oops Grin).

I really cannot seem to find the 1.d4 d5 2.Nf3 c5 3.e3 3...Nf6/3...Nc6 coverage unfortunately. Maybe it's shell-shock from seeing all the different variations in the book.

Have a nice day.
  
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Re: Colle with 3...c5 4.Be2
Reply #8 - 11/19/22 at 15:39:31
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Hi.

an ordinary chessplayer wrote on 11/19/22 at 03:04:04:
Right, but I had in mind 1.Nf3 d5 2.e3 c6 3.c4 which is a direct transposition to Delchev.

Okay. Makes sense.

Yea. I would consider this over some slow Slav or Colle for sure. Also 3.b3 exists I guess.

Have a nice day.
  
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Re: Colle with 3...c5 4.Be2
Reply #7 - 11/19/22 at 11:43:42
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The Smith book is worth a look. A fair bit of explanation is included.
  
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an ordinary chessplayer
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Re: Colle with 3...c5 4.Be2
Reply #6 - 11/19/22 at 03:04:04
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Confused_by_Theory wrote on 11/18/22 at 19:08:45:
I also don't necessarily like to allow 1.Nf3 d5 2.c4 d4

Right, but I had in mind 1.Nf3 d5 2.e3 c6 3.c4 which is a direct transposition to Delchev.
  
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Re: Colle with 3...c5 4.Be2
Reply #5 - 11/18/22 at 19:08:45
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Hi.

an ordinary chessplayer wrote on 11/17/22 at 03:54:14:
Against these Nf3 d-pawn lines, I always aim for an early ...c5xd4 as a simple solution. Here 4...cxd4 5.exd4 Bf5 should be compared with 1.e4 c6 2.d4 d5 3.exd5 cxd5 4.Nf3 Bf5.

Yes. It's a possible way of playing and seems very reasonable for black. At the same time there is some basic pawn structure imbalance early on so I probably wouldn't mind playing white so much.

One can also consider not going early Be2 and then positions can just straight up transpose to a normal exchange Caro Kann.
1.Nf3 Nf6 2.e3 c5 3.d4 cxd4 4.exd4 d5 
1.e4 c6 2.d4 d5 3.exd5 cxd5 4.Nf3 Nf6

1.Nf3 Nf6 2.e3 c5 3.Be2 just feels clever because you are getting some more information from black and can can still avoid going d4 depending on what you see; yet in another way it is more flexible to go 3.d4 immediately.

MartinC wrote on 11/17/22 at 08:50:21:
iirc there were some games a bit back by strong players (Grischuk etc), but I suspect only with black committed to d6.

Its definitely not harmless then, you do need to be happy with playing either a later e4 or d5.

I think if black is playing d6 at some point I would be quite happy as white irregardless of what variation will actually appear Smiley. There is some basic imbalance at least.

Kerangali wrote on 11/17/22 at 11:11:16:
There's a book by Axel Smith called "the e3 poison" covering this kind of system (Nf3, e3 and usually  c4). Not especially venomous, but one can't prevent White from crawling if he wants to. As for Grunfeld players, there's a warning from IM Donaldson (in his grunfeld books review) about "the sneaky 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nf3 Bg7 4.e3 0-0 5.Be2 hoping for 5 ... d5 6.cxd5 Nxd5 7.e4 where there is no ... Nxc3 but White has spent two moves advancing his e-pawn. This system is not analyzed by Zherebukh while Kovalchuk recommends 5 ... b6 which has been the choice of Grünfeld specialists Vachier-Lagrave and Nepomniachtchi."

I'll likely get that book. Thanks.

an ordinary chessplayer wrote on 11/17/22 at 14:23:59:
In case black plays ...c7-c6 you may want to look at Delchev (2012) The Modern Reti which covers 1.Nf3 d5 2.c4 c6 3.e3! (his exclamation mark). https://www.niggemann.com/en/the-modern-reti.html

Apart from the Grünfeld and symmetrical English I also don't necessarily like to allow 1.Nf3 d5 2.c4 d4. It's not that the variation itself is not interesting... it's mainly that when I play 1.Nf3 I like very, very simple positions.

Regards.
/ CbT
  
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Re: Colle with 3...c5 4.Be2
Reply #4 - 11/17/22 at 14:23:59
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There is also Ftacnik (2012) 1.Nf3 - a variable Repertoire for White which has a couple of chapters on 1.Nf3 d5 2.e3. https://en.chessbase.com/post/ftacnik-1-nf3-a-variable-repertoire-for-white I have this DVD but didn't look at that yet. I will try to get back to it and let you know what I found.

In case black plays ...c7-c6 you may want to look at Delchev (2012) The Modern Reti which covers 1.Nf3 d5 2.c4 c6 3.e3! (his exclamation mark). https://www.niggemann.com/en/the-modern-reti.html

These 1.Nf3 move orders avoid my early ...c5xd4 idea, but of course black has other ways to get a decent game.
  
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Re: Colle with 3...c5 4.Be2
Reply #3 - 11/17/22 at 11:11:16
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There's a book by Axel Smith called "the e3 poison" covering this kind of system (Nf3, e3 and usually  c4). Not especially venomous, but one can't prevent White from crawling if he wants to. As for Grunfeld players, there's a warning from IM Donaldson (in his grunfeld books review) about "the sneaky 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nf3 Bg7 4.e3 0-0 5.Be2 hoping for 5 ... d5 6.cxd5 Nxd5 7.e4 where there is no ... Nxc3 but White has spent two moves advancing his e-pawn. This system is not analyzed by Zherebukh while Kovalchuk recommends 5 ... b6 which has been the choice of Grünfeld specialists Vachier-Lagrave and Nepomniachtchi."
  
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Re: Colle with 3...c5 4.Be2
Reply #2 - 11/17/22 at 08:50:21
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iirc there were some games a bit back by strong players (Grischuk etc), but I suspect only with black committed to d6. 

Its definitely not harmless then, you do need to be happy with playing either a later e4 or d5.
  
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Re: Colle with 3...c5 4.Be2
Reply #1 - 11/17/22 at 03:54:14
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Against these Nf3 d-pawn lines, I always aim for an early ...c5xd4 as a simple solution. Here 4...cxd4 5.exd4 Bf5 should be compared with 1.e4 c6 2.d4 d5 3.exd5 cxd5 4.Nf3 Bf5.
  
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Colle with 3...c5 4.Be2
11/17/22 at 02:46:31
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Hi.

I'm wondering if:
1.d4 d5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.e3 c5 4.Be2
Has ever been covered somewhere?

The reason for asking is that I have dabbled a bit with 1.Nf3 recently and realised
1.Nf3 Nf6 2.e3 c5 3.Be2!? could be fun to try against people who like the Grünfeld and Symmetrical English. Myself I don't particularily share such leanings even if I get white. If in the above sequence black goes for 3...d5 I don't see anything more enticing than just playing 4.d4 with a Colle transposition. Not sure if there is any established theory in this subline or not, so I thought I'd ask.

Have a nice day.
  
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