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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) World Correspondence Chess Championship (Read 10438 times)
bragesjo
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Re: World Correspondence Chess Championship
Reply #84 - 03/17/23 at 06:47:03
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Thanks  Smiley
  
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Confused_by_Theory
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Re: World Correspondence Chess Championship
Reply #83 - 03/16/23 at 21:23:24
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bragesjo wrote on 03/16/23 at 11:58:30:
Got CCM title confirmed today.

Congratulations. Smiley
  
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bragesjo
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Re: World Correspondence Chess Championship
Reply #82 - 03/16/23 at 11:58:30
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Got CCM title confirmed today.

Since virtual impossible to get higher titles, despite lots of draws vs SIMs and IMs I can take more risk return to Dragon and try Kings Indian. As preparation I tried a unrated thematical KID event and to my very surprise engines still appears to have problems to understand these kinds of positions run in horizon effect in every game regardless of ply. I chatted with a IM in the event and he said that my oberservations are correkt and that computers always has trouble to understand these kind of positions and becouse of that he plays in rated games as well.
« Last Edit: 03/16/23 at 14:08:38 by bragesjo »  
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cathexis
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Re: World Correspondence Chess Championship
Reply #81 - 01/13/23 at 19:27:39
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Thx! Yes, when running some book's Index of Variations through SF anything within the first 10-15 moves is almost instantaneous. Once past depth of 50 everything slows a lot, whatever you're having it look at. I see little change in suggested lines after depth of 50-60, even in deeper game situations. But I have found it interesting to let it run to 60, go back a move, then restart IA again, then re-enter the move; it may come to the same final choice but sometimes seems to consider variant lines it did not the first time. (Hope that makes sense!) I recognize this is subjective.
  
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bragesjo
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Re: World Correspondence Chess Championship
Reply #80 - 01/13/23 at 10:38:26
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I can give soem deatails o how I play. I am an ameuter player. I have a CCE title but its the lowest title. But I am in a good position to get the next step, a CCM title, when 2 events are completed.

I can even tell what machine I uses. I actually only uses a laptop since I work from home there is no space for any larger extra computer. The laptop has a however a Ryzen 9 CPU and 32 GB ram, a gaming GPU card that I dont use, and a SSD drive where I have tablebases installed. This is also budget computer since the screen is smaller than on most gaming laptops. I imagine that professionals with with money and more space uses similar configuration but as stationary version = even more powerfull hardware. I use latest Stockfish as primary engine and in some positions I also check with latest Dragon by Komodo.

I played very solid Chess and in most position I uses depth 50 as minimum mark, except in some endgames where more than depth 100 and more is often reachable vert fast. There are some exceptions where some endgames actually gives lower depths but more accurate. I often get 50 ply very fast on my computer. There was some realy sharp games or some realy important games where I waited out depth 70 in a middle game position but I belive depth 50 is standard for most players but it depends on
position and ambition. In the opening I use more time to check different book and bases suggestions a bit extra before deciding sub variations.

EDIT The Fritz interface has a percent meusur on estiimsting max ply possible and in most positions says 100% at about ply 50-60 while in some positions depening on pierces left it can be much higher
« Last Edit: 01/13/23 at 12:19:21 by bragesjo »  
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trw
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Re: World Correspondence Chess Championship
Reply #79 - 01/13/23 at 03:48:31
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cathexis wrote on 01/12/23 at 15:04:19:
Just curious,

But when you are running your engine of choice in CC tournaments, what is the longest you've ever let it run? Would you routinely let it chug along on a single position for 24 hours or more? If yes, how do you determine you've gone as deep as is worth it? This question could be for any who play CC, not just bragesjo. Thanks in advance.

[Edit: I realize that time & depth of analysis can be dependent on particular machine/engine specs. But I'd still like to hear your answers.]



If you're just straight up asking what is the longest I have ever run an engine on a position without moving it, weeks.

But that doesn't take into account the complexity of the position, the type of position, the engine, the specs of the hardware or other attributes.
  
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cathexis
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Re: World Correspondence Chess Championship
Reply #78 - 01/12/23 at 15:04:19
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Just curious,

But when you are running your engine of choice in CC tournaments, what is the longest you've ever let it run? Would you routinely let it chug along on a single position for 24 hours or more? If yes, how do you determine you've gone as deep as is worth it? This question could be for any who play CC, not just bragesjo. Thanks in advance.

[Edit: I realize that time & depth of analysis can be dependent on particular machine/engine specs. But I'd still like to hear your answers.]
  
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bragesjo
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Re: World Correspondence Chess Championship
Reply #77 - 01/12/23 at 12:52:21
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Yes now I understand and  you are right.

At lower levels in some games vs 2100-2200 intervall I noticed tha some opponents play odd and I speculate no engines, older engines or stuff like Fritz 18i is games like these that are winnable.
  
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Re: World Correspondence Chess Championship
Reply #76 - 01/12/23 at 11:01:47
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bragesjo wrote on 01/12/23 at 10:45:40:
About players at end of carrier I can have a small comment. I an at my peek and have about 2300 today and met SIMs rated 2100. Less time is also used for a practical reason. It used to take forever to reach even 50 ply but on top modern hardware its matter of moments in most positions. Its become more difficult to find better moves than computer suggestivstions. My impression is that most high rated only plays in closed high rated events where Elo stays high.

I was more referring to the fact that some players stop updating their engines/ databases and keep on using the old stuff. I am always surprised/ disappointed when I read about somebody using some outdated tools as that is just low hanging fruit.
  
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bragesjo
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Re: World Correspondence Chess Championship
Reply #75 - 01/12/23 at 10:45:40
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About players at end of carrier I can have a small comment. I an at my peek and have about 2300 today and met SIMs rated 2100. Less time is also used for a practical reason. It used to take forever to reach even 50 ply but on top modern hardware its matter of moments in most positions. Its become more difficult to find better moves than computer suggestivstions. My impression is that most high rated only plays in closed high rated events where Elo stays high.
  
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Re: World Correspondence Chess Championship
Reply #74 - 01/12/23 at 05:53:55
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trw wrote on 01/11/23 at 21:19:51:
I'm going to go ahead and question you on this.

I did the same filter on 2021 and got 2961 games for 2440+ rating of both players (random number btw). 124 Decisive games.

2022, there was 2602 games (where does 397 come from?). 79 decisive games.
2021: 4.2% Decisive games
2022: 3.0% Decisive games

Decline isn't that much and most of the dramatic decline already happened 5+ years ago when we went from 80% draw rate to 95%.

Btw for 2400+ 224 decisive games / 5994 = 3.7%.

For 2021 I have 2802 games with 51 decisive games.
For 2022 I have 476 games with 8 decisive games (my friend just sent me 2 dags ago December 2022 as it was not yet released at 8th of January).

This is purely related to the archive files from iccf which are published each month (which explains I just received December). Maybe you collect other games too (other correspondence organisation, other iccf files ...? Personally I find it strange you already have now 2602 games for 2022 while games still started in december and very likely aren't finished yet.

I used 2440 elo because that seemed to be the minimum in 2022 where each game is a draw (except clerical errors). You could debate about that figure as some decisive games are really poorly played so wondering if we can consider the rating as an accurate estimation of the playing-strength. Correspondence players at the end of their career often play hundreds of points below their old strength as they work only a fraction of the time anymore at their games compared with before.
  
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Re: World Correspondence Chess Championship
Reply #73 - 01/11/23 at 21:19:51
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brabo wrote on 01/08/23 at 19:41:01:
I received today the ICCF games of 2022 from my ICCF-friend.
First thing I checked was the draw-rate at the top. 397 games I got in which both players were rated +2440 elo.
100% draws with the exception of 4 clear clerical errors (so somebody made a type-error as it dropped a piece in 1 move). Just below you have 1 player having lost a few games but with moves Stockfish immediately refutes.

I am shocked. I checked previous years 2020 and 2021. In those years there were still some normal wins/losses so 2022 seems to be the very first one with only draws.

I guess the iccf-database of 2022 will still be updated with some games lagging in the next months but it is pretty clear correspondence chess is completely dead.

Number of games at the top is also much lower than previous years. Again some games are definitely lagging but this can't explain everything. Deflation plays for sure a role but most likely some topplayers already decided to quit.


I'm going to go ahead and question you on this.

I did the same filter on 2021 and got 2961 games for 2440+ rating of both players (random number btw). 124 Decisive games.

2022, there was 2602 games (where does 397 come from?). 79 decisive games.
2021: 4.2% Decisive games
2022: 3.0% Decisive games

Decline isn't that much and most of the dramatic decline already happened 5+ years ago when we went from 80% draw rate to 95%.

Btw for 2400+ 224 decisive games / 5994 = 3.7%.
  
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bragesjo
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Re: World Correspondence Chess Championship
Reply #72 - 01/10/23 at 16:13:47
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I can give a little more of my thoughts. If a 2200 plays a 2600 in over the board games the 2600 is likely to win. But in Correspondence Chess I have seen 2000 players manage to draw 2600 particullary if lower rated has the white pieces.

When I had 2000 Elo I played 2 draws vs a back then top 6 rated GM in a unrated Petroff thematical event.
  
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bragesjo
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Re: World Correspondence Chess Championship
Reply #71 - 01/10/23 at 10:19:58
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The NNUE technolgy has made software much better but one must not forgot that even hardware is better as well so engines can go deeper than ever in shorter time frames.

I my humble opinion better hardware and software has made in hardly any differens between 2200 who uses a modern computer and up to date engines and 2600 only thing I noticed is the higher rating the more often delayed draws and other opening preferens.
  
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bragesjo
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Re: World Correspondence Chess Championship
Reply #70 - 01/09/23 at 18:34:11
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All NNUE network engines are already using self teaching AI in the evaluation that are trained in different ways. Stockfish, Dragon by Komodo etc are using this new technology
  
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