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Normal Topic Benoni Intricasies (Read 2265 times)
Confused_by_Theory
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Re: Benoni Intricasies
Reply #4 - 02/14/23 at 20:12:03
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Hi.

RosemarysBaby wrote on 02/09/23 at 11:00:28:
The point I was getting to wasn't equally rushed though, and to elaborate a bit on why I found it so exciting: Usually black has been in fear of Nc4->Bf4 hammering the d6 square and has thus plaid either Re8->b6 or b6 to enable Ba6->Bxc4. If black can place the pawn on b5 or provoke a5, that changes things.
I did analyze other continuations as well:
12.a5 Nb5
This is what I'd expect to see most besides Nc4.
13.f3 Nd7
Black is setting up for Nc3->Bxc3 and white can't really do that much to prevent it besides:
14.Bxb5 axb5 15.Nxb5 b6
Not just to capture on a5 but to continue with the ambitious Ba6->b5.
16.Nc4 Ba6 17.Qa4 bxa5 18.Nbxd6 Nb6 19.Qc2 f5
Is apparently the best play, with too many tactical details for a post, around +0.2 so very good indeed.
13.Re1 Bd7 14.Bf3 Rb8 15.Nc4 Nxc3 16.bxc3 Bb5 17.Nxd6 Qxd6 18.e5 Qd8 19.Bg5 h6 20.exf6 hxg5 21.fxg7 Kxg7
A forceful and very messy line +0.3.

12.f3 Rb8 13.a5 Bd7
This is most likely the critical line, I'll post more on it later. I think disposing of the bishop with Bb5->Bxc4 is more principled and active than 12...b6 slowplaying for b5 or 13...Nd7, but will have to do some more concrete analysis to make a better judgment.

No problems.

1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.Nf3 c5 4.d5 d6 5.Nc3 exd5 6.cxd5 g6 7.Nd2 Bg7 8.e4 O-O 9.Be2 Na6 10.O-O Nc7 11.a4 a6 12.a5 Nb5 13.f3 Nxc3 14.bxc3 Nd7
Looks quite serious as well. It also may not look terribly exciting but I'm assuming exchanging a piece like this is good for black in general. White getting a pawn on c3 that needs some measure of protection seems like a bonus. If you follow the lines white often advances c3-c4 shortly after and this doesn't really leave that square for any pieces that would like to be positioned there.

Other attempts do come to mind. 12.Nc4 has been tried. Looking optically, i.e. without computer, the game seemed to peter out quite quickly though.
Palladino, Mario  (2271)   --   Deneuville, Christian  (2251)
WS/CCM/A/25 (-)  ICCF
2022.01.11  1/2-1/2
1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 c5 3.d5 e6 4.Nc3 exd5 5.cxd5 d6 6.Nf3 g6 7.Nd2 Bg7 8.e4 O-O 9.Be2 Na6 10.O-O Nc7 11.a4 a6 12.Nc4 b5 13.axb5 axb5 14.Rxa8 Nxa8 15.Nxb5 Nxe4 16.Bf4 Qf6 17.g3 Bh3 18.Re1 Nxf2 19.Kxf2 g5 20.Bg4 Bxg4 21.Qxg4 gxf4 22.Qxf4 Qxf4+ 23.gxf4 Rb8 24.Nbxd6 Bd4+ 25.Kf3 Nc7 26.Ke4 Ne8 27.Nxe8 Rxe8+ 28.Ne5 f6 29.d6 fxe5 30.Kd5 Bxb2 31.fxe5 Bxe5 32.Rxe5 1/2-1/2

12.f3 looks very much like a modern move. Basically it's something that could be good in a great many continuations and not very forcing. There are various avenues of play. Instinctively I was unsure how good control of the position white's setup after:
12.f3 Rb8 13.a5 Nd7 14.Nc4 Ne5 15.Ne3 offers after 15...Nd7 (though 15...Bd7 is certainly interesting as well).
White has 16.Na4! though. Black can then choose between 16..Na8!?, to force through b6 without having having to put a rook there (that can be threatened by Nc4), or he can go 16...Nb5 17.Nc4 Ne5. After 18.Nab6 black is not so flexible anymore though and probably has to count on say 18...f5 or something similar being effective. Seems like a relatively simple to play line, yet a bit risky perhaps.

Have a nice day.
  
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kylemeister
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Re: Benoni Intricasies
Reply #3 - 02/09/23 at 15:25:04
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RosemarysBaby wrote on 02/09/23 at 11:00:28:
12.f3 Rb8 13.a5 Bd7
This is most likely the critical line, I'll post more on it later. I think disposing of the bishop with Bb5->Bxc4 is more principled and active than 12...b6 slowplaying for b5 or 13...Nd7, but will have to do some more concrete analysis to make a better judgment.

I note that some over-20-year-old theory gave 14. Nc4 Bb5 unclear.
  
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RosemarysBaby
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Re: Benoni Intricasies
Reply #2 - 02/09/23 at 11:00:28
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Jesus...My bad I was too excited when writing the notation.
11.a4 a6
In the line following it every number is one too low. 12.Nc4 etc. No further excuses on my part, that was just a rushed post, weak stuff Sad

The point I was getting to wasn't equally rushed though, and to elaborate a bit on why I found it so exciting: Usually black has been in fear of Nc4->Bf4 hammering the d6 square and has thus plaid either Re8->b6 or b6 to enable Ba6->Bxc4. If black can place the pawn on b5 or provoke a5, that changes things.
I did analyze other continuations as well:
12.a5 Nb5
This is what I'd expect to see most besides Nc4.
13.f3 Nd7
Black is setting up for Nc3->Bxc3 and white can't really do that much to prevent it besides:
  14.Bxb5 axb5 15.Nxb5 b6
Not just to capture on a5 but to continue with the ambitious Ba6->b5.
  16.Nc4 Ba6 17.Qa4 bxa5 18.Nbxd6 Nb6 19.Qc2 f5
Is apparently the best play, with too many tactical details for a post, around +0.2 so very good indeed.
13.Re1 Bd7 14.Bf3 Rb8 15.Nc4 Nxc3 16.bxc3 Bb5 17.Nxd6 Qxd6 18.e5 Qd8 19.Bg5 h6 20.exf6 hxg5 21.fxg7 Kxg7
A forceful and very messy line +0.3.

12.f3 Rb8 13.a5 Bd7
This is most likely the critical line, I'll post more on it later. I think disposing of the bishop with Bb5->Bxc4 is more principled and active than 12...b6 slowplaying for b5 or 13...Nd7, but will have to do some more concrete analysis to make a better judgment.

About the Bxa6 line:
I should've mentioned that 10...bxa6 11.Rc1 Is VERY important. Enabling b3 as a response to Rb8, otherwise black can easily activity their way around the structural issues.
[EDIT: black also has the interesting option 9...Re8 to wait out Be2 or Bd3 before playing Na6]


I'd agree with your response to said clubmate, I'd go as far as to say it's a line where you have to actively disrespect conventional rules of structure to find the necessary dynamics.

  
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Confused_by_Theory
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Re: Benoni Intricasies
Reply #1 - 02/08/23 at 23:12:35
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Hello.

RosemarysBaby wrote on 02/05/23 at 20:12:51:
In the Knight's tour:
1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.Nf3 c5 4.d5 d6 5.Nc3 exd5 6.cxd5 g6 7.Nd2 Bg7 8.e4 O-O 9.Be2 Na6 10.O-O Nc7 11.a6!?
From my understanding there hasn't been an established benefit to not playing Re8, well apparently SF15 disagrees thinking that slows down blacks' queenside play, and apparently the position after:
11.Nc4 b5 12.axb5 axb5 13.Rxa8 Nxa8 14.Nxb5 Nxe4 15.Bf4 Qf6
Is palatable, even quite tactical for black, around 0.4, with 50+ depth. (Continuing 16.Be3 Bd7 17.Na7 Nc7 18.f3 Ng5 19.Nb6 Nh3+ or 16.g3 Bh3 17.Re1 Nxf2 and so on)This seems to make a big difference, as black is presented with more active options for queenside play than the usual b6 grind.

What are the moves exactly? I didn't quite understand from the above.

RosemarysBaby wrote on 02/05/23 at 20:12:51:
In the Bf4 line:
1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.Nf3 c5 4.d5 d6 5.Nc3 exd5 6.cxd5 g6 7.Bf4 Bg7
It has been my impression that the common 8.Qa4+ Bd7 9.Qb3 b5 is a good game for black that the engine agrees with. This, however:
8.e3 O-O 9.h3 Na6
This is where the new(?) stuff kicks in with 10.Bxa6. I suppose the concept is simple if white can clamp down on black activity the fractured majority and the hole on c4 will eventually start paying off. I see that the idea has been deployed in practice has someone done a proper analysis of it?

Maybe a few correspondence players. There black has held a draw two times after 10.Bxa6 though. It is still an interesting line on the other hand. You always have a hard time knowing beforehand if there can be refinements and/or other approaches if the number of games in a continuation is low.

As a sidenote. One of my clubmates asked recently if the Modern Benoni is an opening where pawn structure does not matter so much as in other openings. I would probably say so if you can indeed hold the game with doubled a-pawns like that.

Have a nice day.
  
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RosemarysBaby
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Benoni Intricasies
02/05/23 at 20:12:51
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I'm out of the loop in this opening, even though it was my first love against d4. Checking in on the latest engine play I discovered a couple of things I'd not been aware of at all!

In the Knight's tour:
1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.Nf3 c5 4.d5 d6 5.Nc3 exd5 6.cxd5 g6 7.Nd2 Bg7 8.e4 O-O 9.Be2 Na6 10.O-O Nc7 11.a6!?
From my understanding there hasn't been an established benefit to not playing Re8, well apparently SF15 disagrees thinking that slows down blacks' queenside play, and apparently the position after:
11.Nc4 b5 12.axb5 axb5 13.Rxa8 Nxa8 14.Nxb5 Nxe4 15.Bf4 Qf6
Is palatable, even quite tactical for black, around 0.4, with 50+ depth. (Continuing 16.Be3 Bd7 17.Na7 Nc7 18.f3 Ng5 19.Nb6 Nh3+ or 16.g3 Bh3 17.Re1 Nxf2 and so on)This seems to make a big difference, as black is presented with more active options for queenside play than the usual b6 grind.

In the Bf4 line:
1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.Nf3 c5 4.d5 d6 5.Nc3 exd5 6.cxd5 g6 7.Bf4 Bg7
It has been my impression that the common 8.Qa4+ Bd7 9.Qb3 b5 is a good game for black that the engine agrees with. This, however:
8.e3 O-O 9.h3 Na6
This is where the new(?) stuff kicks in with 10.Bxa6. I suppose the concept is simple if white can clamp down on black activity the fractured majority and the hole on c4 will eventually start paying off. I see that the idea has been deployed in practice has someone done a proper analysis of it?
  
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