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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) 5...0-0 6.Bd3 Nc6 7.e5 dxe5 8.dxe5 Austrian (Read 1338 times)
Confused_by_Theory
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Re: 5...0-0 6.Bd3 Nc6 7.e5 dxe5 8.dxe5 Austrian
Reply #11 - 03/14/23 at 20:34:52
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Hi.

Kerangali wrote on 03/14/23 at 11:01:22:
@C_b_T & guys: by playing 1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6, you rule out the Modern and go straight for the Pirc.  is it because of e4-d4-c4 in the Modern, or for some other reason? I occasionaly play 1.e4 g6 2.d4 Bg7, don't know when I should go for a Pirc instead of Modern.

It's basically a topic for another thread.

I play the Modern most often. With 1.e4 g6 2.d4 g6. The main advantage is that you are not committed to Pirc and can choose later. Also 3.c4 e5 is quite comfortable for black if white does not know what he's doing.
The other move order of 1.e4 g6 2.d4 Bg7 has some advantages as well. Mainly it gives black some options against various less common third moves from white.
The Pirc move order of 1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 has the upside in that it prevents 3.c4 and 1.e4 g6 2.d4 Bg7 3.Nf3 d6 4.Bc4

Have a nice day.
  
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Kerangali
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Re: 5...0-0 6.Bd3 Nc6 7.e5 dxe5 8.dxe5 Austrian
Reply #10 - 03/14/23 at 11:01:22
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@C_b_T & guys: by playing 1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6, you rule out the Modern and go straight for the Pirc.  is it because of e4-d4-c4 in the Modern, or for some other reason? I occasionaly play 1.e4 g6 2.d4 Bg7, don't know when I should go for a Pirc instead of Modern.
  
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Confused_by_Theory
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Re: 5...0-0 6.Bd3 Nc6 7.e5 dxe5 8.dxe5 Austrian
Reply #9 - 03/13/23 at 08:05:27
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Hi.

Michael Ayton wrote on 03/11/23 at 00:10:41:
The line you give ending 19 ...e6 looks OK for Black to me, albeit not thrilling. And there is also 12 ...Rad8 (and 11 ...Qe6).
Kerangali wrote on 03/12/23 at 19:01:29:
> after  9.Nxd5 Qxd5 10.Qe2 Bg4 11.Be4, I'd go 11...Qd7 12.Be3 Rad8 and e.g. 13.Rd1 Qxd1 with unspoilt pawn structure

1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.f4 Bg7 5.Nf3 0-0 6.Bd3 Nc6 7.e5 dxe5 8.dxe5 Nd5 9.Nxd5 Qxd5 10.Qe2 Bg4 11.Be4 Qd7 12.Be3 Rad8
And now
13.Qc4!?
Looks most active (basically it sets up Bxc6 ideas to spoil black's structure). The computer now gives a few lines that are OK for black, but not trivial to play. A double or single pawn sacrifice depending on what white does. In the first one you only get back one of the pawns.
13...Na5 14.Qc3 Qa4!
And two lines arise.
15.b4
15.Nd4 c5! 16.Qxc5 b6 17.Qc3 f6 With enough pressure to compensate for the pawn. 
15...c5! 16.Bxc5 b6 17.Bxe7 Rc8 18.Qd3 Rfe8 19.O-O Rxe7 20.bxa5 Qxa5
Black is probably OK.

Kerangali wrote on 03/12/23 at 19:01:29:
> after 9.Qe2 Bg4 10.Be4, 10...Nd4 looks adequate for Black, White must be careful with his Queen.

10...Nd4 or 10...e6 are adequate. 10.Be4 is just a different playable line to learn.

Kerangali wrote on 03/12/23 at 19:01:29:
> 9.Bd2 Bg4 10.Be4 e6 with Nd4 and ...c5 coming also looks OK for Black.

1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.f4 Bg7 5.Nf3 0-0 6.Bd3 Nc6 7.e5 dxe5 8.dxe5 Nd5 9.Bd2 Bg4 10.Be4 e6 11.h3 Bxf3 12.Qxf3 Nd4 13.Qf2 c5
Is probably OK for black, yes. It is a bit advanced strategically to just exchange bishop for knight and then hope having active knights compensate. Especially in a position like:
14.h4!? f6 15.h5 fxe5 16.hxg6 h6
The same thing basically applies. If black didn't have very pieces he would be in serious trouble, but as it is it looks quite unclear.

Kerangali wrote on 03/12/23 at 19:01:29:
> 9.0-0 is the move I'd find most annoying. After 9...Nxc3 10.bxc3 f6 11.exf6 exf6 12.Rb1 b6 13 f5, White has easier play but for some reason the computer is like -0.1. White also has the forcing 13. Nh4 f5 14.Bc4+ Kh8 15.Nxg6+ hxg6 16.Qf3 Bf6 17.Qxc6 Rb8 and ...Bb7, but the computer claims equality. A line to check beforehand!

Yes.

I am also a bit unjoyed about the less forcing option:
1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.f4 Bg7 5.Nf3 0-0 6.Bd3 Nc6 7.e5 dxe5 8.dxe5 Nd5 9.0-0 Nxc3 10.bxc3 f6 11.Bc4!? Kh8 12.exf6
12.Qe1!? seems playable as well.
12...exf6 13.Ba3!?

Kerangali wrote on 03/12/23 at 19:01:29:
> after 9.Nxd5 Qxd5 10.c3, the computer improves on 10...Rd8 with 10...Be6!? and e.g. 11.Qe2 Rad8 12.Bc2 Qc4 with white square control a la Grunfeld.
Hope you'll get a better game next time Smiley

It's an alternative. In general: the slower the move from white, the more options for black. The second player should be aware of
10...Be6 11.Qe2 Rad8 12.Be4 Qc4 13.Qxc4 Bxc4 14.Bxc6 bxc6
Which still looks fine due to black's unopposed light-squared bishop, but it's a little bit imbalanced. Or 12...Qd7 can be tried, but then black still needs to think a bit of how to play.

Have a nice day.

  
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Kerangali
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Re: 5...0-0 6.Bd3 Nc6 7.e5 dxe5 8.dxe5 Austrian
Reply #8 - 03/12/23 at 19:01:29
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Hi,
After a little browsing with Lichess comp (= just blundercheck, no corr-like analysis) these lines with 8.dxe5 Nd5 don't look so grim.
> after  9.Nxd5 Qxd5 10.Qe2 Bg4 11.Be4, I'd go 11...Qd7 12.Be3 Rad8 and e.g. 13.Rd1 Qxd1 with unspoilt pawn structure
> after 9.Qe2 Bg4 10.Be4, 10...Nd4 looks adequate for Black, White must be careful with his Queen.
> 9.Bd2 Bg4 10.Be4 e6 with Nd4 and ...c5 coming also looks OK for Black.
> 9.0-0 is the move I'd find most annoying. After 9...Nxc3 10.bxc3 f6 11.exf6 exf6 12.Rb1 b6 13 f5, White has easier play but for some reason the computer is like -0.1. White also has the forcing 13. Nh4 f5 14.Bc4+ Kh8 15.Nxg6+ hxg6 16.Qf3 Bf6 17.Qxc6 Rb8 and ...Bb7, but the computer claims equality. A line to check beforehand!
> after 9.Nxd5 Qxd5 10.c3, the computer improves on 10...Rd8 with 10...Be6!? and e.g. 11.Qe2 Rad8 12.Bc2 Qc4 with white square control a la Grunfeld.
Hope you'll get a better game next time Smiley
  
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Michael Ayton
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Re: 5...0-0 6.Bd3 Nc6 7.e5 dxe5 8.dxe5 Austrian
Reply #7 - 03/11/23 at 00:10:41
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The line you give ending 19 ...e6 looks OK for Black to me, albeit not thrilling. And there is also 12 ...Rad8 (and 11 ...Qe6).

I agree with you about the tediousness of facing the e5/f4 pawn wedge, and the annoyance factor of all the many White tries, which moreover you could also say about the Pirc in general! I do find the Pirc fascinating, but it can be hard having a feeling for the 'harmony' of the opening when there is such a range of position types to cope with ...
  
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Confused_by_Theory
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Re: 5...0-0 6.Bd3 Nc6 7.e5 dxe5 8.dxe5 Austrian
Reply #6 - 03/10/23 at 19:02:26
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Hi.

Michael Ayton wrote on 03/10/23 at 14:59:54:
I see what you mean -- maybe 11 ...Qd7 is 'cleaner'! And I wonder -- though I haven't looked at this properly -- whether 12 Be3 prevents 12 ...Nd4 anyway ...

I looked at this 9.Nxd5 Qxd5 10.Qe2 branch when I got home after the game.
1.e4 g6 2.d4 d6 3.Nc3 Bg7 4.f4 Nf6 5.Nf3 O-O 6.Bd3 Nc6 7.e5 dxe5 8.dxe5 Nd5 9.Nxd5 Qxd5 10.Qe2 Bg4 11.Be4 Qd7 12.Be3 Nd4 13.Qd1!? Bxf3 14.gxf3 Rfd8 15.c3 Nf5 16.Qxd7 Rxd7 17.Bxf5 gxf5 18.Rg1 Rad8 19.Ke2 e6
Was my mainline after 11...Qd7. I get the feeling black will draw this in 85% of games but only win like 5% of the time.

If one is OK with the above that continuation from white it is probably one of the smaller problems in some sense. White has many different tries all over this opening line though; significantly adding annoyance factor. For example
1.e4 g6 2.d4 d6 3.Nc3 Bg7 4.f4 Nf6 5.Nf3 O-O 6.Bd3 Nc6 7.e5 dxe5 8.dxe5 Nd5
9.Qe2!? looks slow but seems decent as well. Black's best is probably 9...Bg4 and then white can try 10.Be4; where black needs to know how to play the position. These f4+e5 pawn chains are a bit annoying to face.
9.0-0 The computer now suggests 9...Nxc3 10.bxc3 f6 to get counterplay. The game does open up a little bit quicker than black would really like though. At least that's my sense. I'm not totally sure what to do instead.
9.Bd2 Is quite popular. I suspect black's best is again 9...Bg4.
9.Nxd5 Qxd5 10.Qe2
10.0-0 is certainly possible as well. 10...Nb4 11.Be2 Qc5+ 12.Qd4 and it's a little bit annoying that white seems to get a fair bit of compensation if black takes on c2.
10.c3 with likely continuation 10...Rd8 11.Bc2 Qxd1+ 12.Bxd1 is practically annoying. White is arguably never worse in such a position and black will need to be somewhat precise I think. Probably with 12...Be6, to prevent Bb3 from white.

Have a nice day.
  
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Michael Ayton
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Re: 5...0-0 6.Bd3 Nc6 7.e5 dxe5 8.dxe5 Austrian
Reply #5 - 03/10/23 at 14:59:54
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I see what you mean -- maybe 11 ...Qd7 is 'cleaner'! And I wonder -- though I haven't looked at this properly -- whether 12 Be3 prevents 12 ...Nd4 anyway ...
  
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Kerangali
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Re: 5...0-0 6.Bd3 Nc6 7.e5 dxe5 8.dxe5 Austrian
Reply #4 - 03/10/23 at 14:27:04
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or 11...Qd7 12.Be3 (12.h3 Nd4) Rad8 and White must prevent Nd4 with Rad1 or c3. Not quite thrilling, but no violent death in sight. Perhaps this is the 'safe' line, while 11...Qa5 is the risky choice?
  
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Michael Ayton
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Re: 5...0-0 6.Bd3 Nc6 7.e5 dxe5 8.dxe5 Austrian
Reply #3 - 03/10/23 at 13:24:02
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Interesting. This may be a sideline, but I guess playing the Pirc means you have to be up on such things (he says hypocritically!) -- the price you pay for playing a sharp opening with very few 'antis'.

Just off the top of my head I wonder if 11 ...Qe6 isn't simpler -- less Tigerish certainly, but inhibiting 0-0-0 (and thus hopefully h4-h5) ...
  
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Confused_by_Theory
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Re: 5...0-0 6.Bd3 Nc6 7.e5 dxe5 8.dxe5 Austrian
Reply #2 - 03/10/23 at 11:50:42
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Kerangali wrote on 03/10/23 at 09:26:05:
> 1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.f4 Bg7 5.0-0 Nc6 6.Bd3 Nc6
these first moves may need some editing

True. Pardons. It was pretty late.
It's 5.Nf3 0-0 6.Bd3 Nc6

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Re: 5...0-0 6.Bd3 Nc6 7.e5 dxe5 8.dxe5 Austrian
Reply #1 - 03/10/23 at 09:26:05
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> 1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.f4 Bg7 5.0-0 Nc6 6.Bd3 Nc6
these first moves may need some editing
  
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5...0-0 6.Bd3 Nc6 7.e5 dxe5 8.dxe5 Austrian
03/10/23 at 02:33:22
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Hi.

I just lost a rated standard chess game after:
1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.f4 Bg7 5.Nf3 0-0 6.Bd3 Nc6 7.e5 dxe5 8.dxe5!?
A semi-sideline asfaik. Honestly it also bothers me a little bit because, after another mine-hit a couple of years ago, I am now 0 out of 2 in that line in rated games. Zero percent. Not so good. Can't really be pleased about that.

Anyway. The game went into one of the critical lines:
8...Nd5 9.Nxd5!? Qxd5 10.Qe2 Bg4 11.Be4 Qa5+!?
I knew there was some high level game here so went for this, but I now wonder if other moves are not simpler. After...
12.Bd2 Qb6 13.0-0-0 Nd4 14.Qc4
I was a bit unaware of the line in general (and any dangers) and so went:
14...Nxf3?!
That was met by pawn takes and I lost in pretty embarassing fashion after my opponent was able to go h4-h5 shortly after and I basically messed up the defense.

Back home I check Tiger's book and it actually half recommends the line I played. Only he notes how in the stem game Zaw - Sitanggang, Jakarta 1997 14...c5 was played because it is important not to exchange on f3 until it is necessary; then white can go for a quick h4-h5 and attack.

Oops... Cheesy

Now, I wanted to note that detail about not taking. Also it would be nice to win or at least not lose the next game in this line so idk... let's discuss a bit. Even some semi-dubious replies could be interesting for me. It seems white can play the line very safely and most of which that annoys or sidetracks white from that could be of substantive practical value and would be of interest.

Have a nice day.
« Last Edit: 03/10/23 at 11:48:12 by Confused_by_Theory »  
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