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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) The French Defense Revisited (Read 13895 times)
Nernstian59
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Re: The French Defense Revisited
Reply #25 - 09/20/23 at 22:35:44
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FreeRepublic wrote on 09/19/23 at 13:54:20:
Thanks for the excellent summary. The positional lines have always been interesting.

You're welcome! It took some time to pull together the information from the various sources, but it was enlightening to see how the positional Winawer lines have evolved over time.

Regarding your comments in Reply #23, I've also enjoyed Moskalenko's books, though I wish he'd do an actual repertoire someday. As it is, his works are more like collections of ideas in the vein of the Dangerous Weapons and SOS books. However, Moskalenko seems to be the one GM who regularly writes books on the French, so I guess I should at least be happy for that.
  
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Re: The French Defense Revisited
Reply #24 - 09/19/23 at 13:54:20
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Nernstian59 wrote on 06/07/23 at 21:35:27:
While looking through The French Defense Revisited, I noticed that Jacimovic + Zlatanovic ("J&Z") offered an interesting recommendation in the 7.a4 positional Winawer variation, which begins with 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Bb4 4.e5 c5 5.a3 Bxc3+ 6.bxc3 Ne7 7.a4. J&Z then follow mainstream theory for a few moves: 7...Qa5 8.Bd2 Nbc6 9.Nf3 Bd7 10.Be2. Now their suggestion is 10...c4 instead of the well-established 10...f6 ...


Thanks for the excellent summary. The positional lines have always been interesting.
  
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Re: The French Defense Revisited
Reply #23 - 09/19/23 at 13:06:03
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There is another general text on the French. I don't see a thread on it, so I'll mention it here.

The Fully-Fledged French, by Viktor Moskalenko, 368 pages, Apr 21, 2021.

https://forwardchess.com/product/the-fully--fledged-french?section=Search

I've enjoyed his previous works on the French and this is something of an update. The sample includes a table of contents.
  
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Re: The French Defense Revisited
Reply #22 - 06/12/23 at 19:57:30
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kylemeister - Thanks for those informative quotes! They do show that 10 ...f6 was fairly credited to Korchnoi in the years right after its introduction.  For whatever reason, that doesn't seem to be the case with more recent opening works. The comment from Timman is particularly interesting since it directly addresses the misgivings about opening the position expressed by Moles.   

  
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Re: The French Defense Revisited
Reply #21 - 06/11/23 at 20:15:03
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Nernstian59 wrote on 06/11/23 at 18:40:33:

Another interesting nugget from the article is that Kavalek credits Korchnoi with introducing 10...f6, the current main move. It's certainly plausible since the 1976 Timman-Korchnoi game I mentioned in Reply #16 is the earliest instance of the move in Megabase. However, I haven't seen the attribution of 10...f6 to Korchnoi anywhere else.

I looked in a few old sources and found these comments:

"This was first played by Korchnoi, against me, in Leeuwarden 1976. Black provokes his opponent to open the centre at once, an idea formerly considered too dangerous because of White's bishop-pair." -- Timman in The Art of Chess Analysis, 1980

"Korchnoi's discovery, which seeks to smash White's center. It is stronger than the customary 10... P-B5." -- Keene in Chess Life & Review, 1978

"Korchnoi's idea that Black's position can withstand even greater tension in the center is a significant improvement on the earlier 10...Qc7 [...], or 10...c4 [...]." -- Gligoric, also in CL&R in 1978
  
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Re: The French Defense Revisited
Reply #20 - 06/11/23 at 18:40:33
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kylemeister - While writing my previous post, I had a nagging feeling that I had seen an annotated French Winawer game where Kavalek played White. My recollection was too vague to allow me to find that game, let alone to know if it was the one with Uhlmann, so I didn't mention it in my post. Now that I've seen Kavalek's article (BTW - Thanks for the link!), I'm fairly sure I looked it up years ago to see the new analysis of Botvinnik-Capablanca AVRO 1938.

When you noted that Timman was Kavalek's second for the Manila Interzonal, I immediately wondered if Timman's experiences with the Winawer had been useful in preparing Kavalek for his game with Uhlmann.  Sure enough, Kavalek confirms this in his article.

Another interesting nugget from the article is that Kavalek credits Korchnoi with introducing 10...f6, the current main move. It's certainly plausible since the 1976 Timman-Korchnoi game I mentioned in Reply #16 is the earliest instance of the move in Megabase. However, I haven't seen the attribution of 10...f6 to Korchnoi anywhere else.
  
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Re: The French Defense Revisited
Reply #19 - 06/10/23 at 22:55:37
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By the way, here are annotations by Kavalek (from the 2010s) to his game against Uhlmann.
https://www.huffpost.com/entry/the-road-to-chess-mastery_b_1373180

I see that the game also appears in Life at Play. (I don't have that book, but, being a bit of a Kavalek fan, I intend to get it at some point.)
  
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Re: The French Defense Revisited
Reply #18 - 06/10/23 at 21:33:37
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kylemeister - Thanks for pointing out those Uhlmann games with 10...c4. The one against Kavalek from 1976 is an interesting mix of new (Giri's plan of ...Kb8 + ...Nc8 and defending the g7-pawn with a rook when it's attacked with Nh5) and old (Botvinnik's snatch of the a4-pawn from the 1940s). With 20/20 hindsight, it appears that Uhlmann's transfer of a knight to g6 wasn't a good idea. It became a target and was later lost. Lc0 came up with a different knight maneuver - playing it from c6 to a7 (after ...a7-a6) and then to b5 to gang up on the c3-pawn.

I wonder about the reason for Uhlmann's reversion to 10...c4 in the 2000 game against Schulte. Did Uhlmann want to avoid a tactical clash against an opponent who was close to thirty years younger? Or did he want steer clear of a theoretical battle and head for a maneuvering game in a position with which he had past familiarity?  Whatever the reason, I liked how Uhlmann repositioned his knight with ...Ne7-f5-d6.  I don't recall seeing that way of getting to d6 before.

Out of curiosity, I got out my copy of the French Defense book published by RHM in 1975. Gligoric is given as the author, although Uhlmann is credited as his collaborator.  They give 10...c4 as the main line, just as Moles did in his book, which appeared in the same year.  The analysis of 10...c4 in the RHM book follows Moles' preferred line (see my post in Reply #16) up to 15.g3. It then deviates with 15...f6.  The line ends here with the comment "with an unclear position". The engines seem to think that Black's position is OK, evaluating it as =.

The RHM book doesn't mention 10...f6, although that's understandable given that it was an untried move at the time and that the authors were trying to fit the entire French Defense in a single volume. Moles had the luxury of only covering the main line of the Winawer.  Even the secondary Winawer lines were left to his second book.
  
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Re: The French Defense Revisited
Reply #17 - 06/07/23 at 23:10:02
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Re 10...c4, the old game I (half-) remembered is Uhlmann's loss with it to Kavalek in the '76 Manila Interzonal. Kavalek's second for that event, by the way, was Timman.

(In Uhlmann's 1991 book Ein Leben lang Französisch, he said that 10...f6 is better. Though I see he played 10...c4 in a game in 2000.)
  
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Re: The French Defense Revisited
Reply #16 - 06/07/23 at 21:35:27
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While looking through The French Defense Revisited, I noticed that Jacimovic + Zlatanovic ("J&Z") offered an interesting recommendation in the 7.a4 positional Winawer variation, which begins with 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Bb4 4.e5 c5 5.a3 Bxc3+ 6.bxc3 Ne7 7.a4. J&Z then follow mainstream theory for a few moves: 7...Qa5 8.Bd2 Nbc6 9.Nf3 Bd7 10.Be2. Now their suggestion is 10...c4 instead of the well-established 10...f6. 

I was puzzled about this recommendation because I had recently read Steve Giddins' account of the historical evolution of the 7.a4 line in his The French Winawer Move by Move. The story starts with Botvinnik's successes with ...c5-c4 in the 1940s.  Giddins then notes that it took quite a while for White players to develop an effective counter. By the early to mid-1970s, White began to meet 10...c4 with 11.Ng5 h6 12.Nh3, with the intention of playing Nf4-h5 to force a weakening of Black's kingside pawn structure. Giddins cites two Planinc-Timman games (Wijk aan Zee 1974 and Amsterdam 1974), where Black tried 12...Ng6 to keep the white knight out of f4, only to beaten handily after 13.Bh5. In both games, Black tried to reinforce his g6-knight with 13...Nce7, but White proceeded with a winning plan that consisted of Qe1 to guard c3, allowing Bc1-a3, combined with play down the b-file and an eventual advance of the f-pawn to threaten the knight on g6 and hit the base of Black's pawn chain. Giddins notes that these two defeats, and similar ones, caused Black players to become dissatisfied with 10...c4, resulting in a switch to the more dynamic 10...f6.

John Moles' landmark work The French Defence - Main Line Winawer was published in 1975, right around the time that the transition from 10...c4 to 10...f6 was occurring. Thus, it's informative to see Moles' opinions on these two lines. He has 10...c4 as his main move, with the comment "Closing the centre before embarking on counterplay on the wings, in good classical style". Moles describes 10...f6 as a suggestion by (Rolf) Schwarz and only gives a brief treatment, saying that after 10...f6 11.c4 Qc7 12.exf6 gxf6 13.cxd5, the opening of the position will enhance the strength of White's bishop-pair. 

Moles cites the two Planinc-Timman games, but didn't care for Timman's 12...Ng6, marking it ?! and giving the reply 13.Bh5 an exclam and an evaluation of ±. Moles preferred to allow 13.Nf4, meeting it with 13...g6 ("Black stops Nh5, saddling himself with a suspect pawn structure but gaining time to secure active counterplay") 14.h4 Rdg8 15.g3 Kb8! 16.Bg4 Nc8 17.h5 g5 18.Ne2 f5 19.exf6 Nd6 20.f4 Ne4!, as in the game Bannik-N.Levin, Ukraine Team Ch, Ternopol 1965. Moles' evaluation: "a complex position with about level chances.". Stockfish gives Black a slight edge, but also points to improvements for White on moves 17 and 18. 

Moles' approach didn't seem to catch on, but 10...f6 did, apparently rather quickly, since Giddins' illustrative game for this move has Korchnoi playing it successfully in 1976, just two years after the two Planinc-Timman contests. Korchnoi's opponent? - none other than Timman, who had the misfortune of now losing a positional Winawer game with the white pieces! (Timman-Korchnoi 3rd match game Leeuwarden 1976). Korchnoi's use of 10...f6 in his 1977 Candidates match with Spassky may have also accelerated its adoption as Black's main move, a status which has seemingly endured to the present day.

This impression is reinforced by 10..f6 being the recommended move in the Black repertoires offered by Watson in the 4th edition of Play the French, by Berg in his GM Repertoire book and by Giri in his Chessable course. However, a bit more research shows some grumbles of discontent. The most pronounced criticism of 10...f6 comes from Miedema, who choose not to recommend this move in his The Modernized French Defense (2019) because of the line 11.c4 Qc7 12.exf6 gxf6 13.cxd5 Nxd5 14.c3 0-0-0 15.0-0 Rhg8 16.a5!N e5 17.a6 Bh3 18.g3!!, when he could not find a way to prevent White from gaining an advantage. Miedema's comment about the position arising from 10...f6 is interesting: "I felt there was something fishy about an open position with the bishops and opposite-side castling." He seems to have the same misgivings that Moles had back in the 70s.  Fortunately, Giri's course offers an antidote for Miedema's line, although it's a rather concrete variation that was likely produced via engine-assistance.  

Even back in 2013, Watson, while recommending 10...f6, spent a couple pages to present "a way for Black to play more safely and solidly". His suggestion? - 10...c4! In other words, the old main line. Watson notes that this approach "goes back to some old moves'. His main line is 10...c4 11.Ng5 ("This has long been regarded as the theoretical drawback to 10...c4" - Watson) 11...h6 12.Nh3 Ng6 13.0-0 0-0 14.Qc1 Rfb8. He also covers 13.Bh5 (Planinc's killer move), answering it with 13...Nce7 14.Qg4 0-0. Watson gives this comment: "This is the point! 10...c4 has mostly been associated with ...0-0-0, especially in the very few old games with 12...Ng6. But I think the king is happy enough on the kingside, and this opens up possibilities on the other side of the board" This is a new approach (at least for me), and one can see how 14...Rfb8 supports ...b5, seeking play on the queenside. A search of Megabase fails to find any games where Black went for Watson's approach.

In his Chessable course, Giri has the following comment on the position in the 7.a4 Winawer after 10.Be2: "Black ... is always choosing between the direct ...f6, allowing a mess after c3-c4, and starting with ...c5-c4 first, which is slower but more reliable". So there seems to be a consensus growing that 10...f6 is getting a bit hot too handle for some, and that something more solid would be desirable.  While devoting the bulk of his analysis to 10...f6, Giri also offers some coverage of 10...c4, meeting 11.Ng5 with 11...h6 12.Nh3 0-0-0, allowing White to execute his threat with 13.Nf4 Kb8 14.Nh5. Now he suggests 14...Rdg8 to guard the g7-pawn without weakening Black's pawn structure. After 15.0-0 Nc8, Black can play the ...f5 advance, meeting exf6 with ...g6 and picking up the pawn on f6 later. Also the knight was played to c8 so it can now go to d6. Note that Giri uses the same ...Kb8 + ...Nc8 maneuver that Moles suggested back in the 70s!

So it would seem that J&Z's recommendation of 10...c4 is consistent with this trend of bypassing a tactical melee and seeking more strategic play in the 7.a4 Winawer. However, J&Z don't say anything to this effect. They just note that 10...c4 leads to well-known positions with White a tempo up, although they don't feel that the tempo is important. Presumably, J&Z are referring to the positions where White plays 10.Bd3 instead of 10.Be2, and now 10...c4 11.Be2 is the same position as 10.Be2 c4, but with Black a tempo up.  It's noteworthy that J&Z don't cover 11.Ng5 in response to 10...c4. Watson and Giri are apparently more aware of the theoretical history of the line since they devote some analysis to this relevant move. J&Z cover 11.h4, 11.0-0, and 11.Nh4, which are reasonable enough ideas, but neglecting the most theoretically challenging line (and a top choice of the engine) is a disappointment.

Perhaps some idea of how J&Z would handle 11.Ng5 is given in the analysis of another positional Winawer variation, the one where White plays 7.Nf3 instead of 7.a4. One of J&Z's lines continues 7...Bd7 8.Bd3 c4 9.Be2 Ba4 10.Ng5 h6 11.Nh3 Nbc6 12.Nf4 and now the amazing 12...Kd7! intending the famous Yusupov queen transfer to the kingside with ...Qg8, possibly with a subsequent ...Qh7 to add to the pressure on the c2-pawn. J&Z say that the black king is quite safe on d7, though a search of Megabase shows that no one has been brave (or foolhardy?) enough to try this move in this specific position.

It's interesting that 7...Bd7 was Moles' recommendation against the positional 7.Nf3 Winawer. And since J&Z also suggest Moles' 10...c4 in the 7.a4 line, it seems as though the two authors have opted for a decidedly retro approach to handling the positional Winawer. J&Z might feel justified in this decision since it provides the opportunity for Black to play a more strategic game, one that would fit their target audience of club players better than long, concrete engine lines.
  
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Re: The French Defense Revisited
Reply #15 - 05/31/23 at 08:20:16
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FreeRepublic wrote on 05/29/23 at 14:34:59:
Nernstian59 wrote on 05/28/23 at 21:06:14:
For the Winawer, Jacimovic and Zlatanovic("J&Z") cover the mainline Poison Pawn with 12...d4
...
3...c5 4.exd5 Qxd5.  However, there's a bit of a wrinkle in the second line because when White later hits the black queen with Bc4, Her Majesty retreats to d7


It seems to me that these two lines are doing well for Black in practice, and in both pure human and computer assisted theory. 

I think there are many other variations in which Black could do well, at least in over the board club play. Some variations seem to wilt after computer-assisted review. I think that is a shame because part of the charm of the French defense is that both White and Black have many reasonable options to consider.

Perhaps additional safe havens can be found where computer engines give faulty assessments. For example, computers may not fully recognize the drawing capacity of opposite colored bishop endings. Or computer algoriths may give an advantage based upon space, when it is not meaningful.

I wish the authors well in securing both main lines and preserving viable side line options. It sounds like a good book.


I think its probably more than just club level play - a lot of the slightly 'bad' lines take 10-20 computer accurate moves to get near squashing.

And there's a lot of them to pick between. So if you switched between 4 or 5 different options you'd be fine in a practical sense.

An awful lot of work as black too of course.
  
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Re: The French Defense Revisited
Reply #14 - 05/30/23 at 21:24:15
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FreeRepublic wrote on 05/29/23 at 14:34:59:
Some variations seem to wilt after computer-assisted review.

Unfortunately, this seems to be the case with the 6...Qc7 Winawer. After 7.Qg4 f5 8.Qg3, the continuation 8...Ne7 9.Qxg7 Rg8 10.Qxh7 cxd4, which Botvinnik played in both of his world championship matches with Tal, has scored poorly.  And the supposedly more solid 8...cxd4 9.cxd4 Ne7 is met by 10.Ne2!, when Black's "opening scheme seems to be in trouble", as Watson states in last year's C18 French Defense ChessPub Guide.  Only Moskalenko's recommendation 8...Nc6 seems to be hanging on.

I'm not sure if Black's poor results are entirely due to computer analysis, but at least this sword cuts both ways. In his Chessable course, Giri acknowledges engine assistance in the formulation of lines where Black escapes from some seemingly desperate situations. Some of Giri's lines run to move 30 and beyond, so their applicability to otb play by mere mortals might be open to question. At least he shows that both the 12...d4 and the older 12...Bd7 Poison Pawn lines are viable.

FreeRepublic wrote on 05/29/23 at 14:34:59:
computer algoriths may give an advantage based upon space, when it is not meaningful.

I wish I could find the remark I read (perhaps by Watson or possibly Matthew Sadler), where an engine evaluation of a French position is in White's favor because of "Stockfish's usual preference for space". Interestingly, in my limited experience, Lc0 doesn't seem to value space as much. I just got Dragon 3.2 a few weeks ago, and it appears to be intermediate between the other two engines in its evaluations.
  
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Re: The French Defense Revisited
Reply #13 - 05/29/23 at 14:34:59
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Nernstian59 wrote on 05/28/23 at 21:06:14:
For the Winawer, Jacimovic and Zlatanovic("J&Z") cover the mainline Poison Pawn with 12...d4
...
3...c5 4.exd5 Qxd5.  However, there's a bit of a wrinkle in the second line because when White later hits the black queen with Bc4, Her Majesty retreats to d7


It seems to me that these two lines are doing well for Black in practice, and in both pure human and computer assisted theory. 

I think there are many other variations in which Black could do well, at least in over the board club play. Some variations seem to wilt after computer-assisted review. I think that is a shame because part of the charm of the French defense is that both White and Black have many reasonable options to consider.

Perhaps additional safe havens can be found where computer engines give faulty assessments. For example, computers may not fully recognize the drawing capacity of opposite colored bishop endings. Or computer algoriths may give an advantage based upon space, when it is not meaningful.

I wish the authors well in securing both main lines and preserving viable side line options. It sounds like a good book.
  
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Re: The French Defense Revisited
Reply #12 - 05/28/23 at 21:06:14
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tp2205 wrote on 04/20/23 at 03:51:30:
which lines in the WInawer (e.g. allowing Qxg7 and if so the ...d4 lines or more classical lines, 7...O-O, 6...Qc7, 6...Qa5, 4...b6) I have no idea, similarly there is no indication of what system is chosen against the Advance Variation

I have the book, so I can give some details beyond what can be deduced from the sample provided by the publisher. For the Winawer, Jacimovic and Zlatanovic("J&Z") cover the mainline Poison Pawn with 12...d4 and also 6...Qa5, as noted in Reply #3. As can be seen, the book gives two lines in the Winawer, and it also follows this practice for all of the main variations.   

For the Advance, after 1.e4 e6 2.d4 3.e5 c5 4.c3, the authors offer both 4...Bd7 and 4...Nc6 5.Nf3 Bd7. In the former line, Black aims to follow up with ...Qb6 and ...Bb5, exchanging off the "French bishop". This approach is advocated in Neil McDonald's How to Play Against 1.e4 and Bryan Tillis' Chessable course Master the French Defense, although both of these authors begin their versions with 4...Qb6 and follow with ...Bd7-b5. 

As mentioned in Reply #3, J&Z's preferred lines against the Tarrasch are the Guimard (3...Nc6) and 3...c5 4.exd5 Qxd5.  However, there's a bit of a wrinkle in the second line because when White later hits the black queen with Bc4, Her Majesty retreats to d7, and not the more usual d6. This ...Qd7 idea, which is also covered by Tillis in his Chessable course, has become popular in the last few years. A search of MegaBase yields a "Hot" designation for the move.

I haven't delved into the book in great detail, but the analysis I've gone through seems solid.  After my initial skimming of the book, I was disappointed that it didn't cover recent White challenges to the French such as 10.Qd3 in the Poison Pawn and the delayed Milner-Barry Gambit (MBG).  My dissatisfaction was partly allayed when I reread Reply #3 with anon's description of the book as being aimed at "average" (club) players.  Thus The French Defense Revisited is intended to instruct such players rather than presenting cutting edge theory.   

However, it could be argued that the delayed MBG should have been covered, along with such things as the Wing Gambit and the Winckelmann-Riemer Gambit, since these are the sort of tricky lines that some club players employ to avoid mainline theory. J&Z do cover the original version of the MBG, but no mention is made of the new, delayed variant or of the Wing and W-R Gambits. It should be noted that the delayed MBG is the suggested anti-French line in multiple White 1.e4 repertoires, including the Chessable course by GothamChess (IM Levy Rozman). In fact, I recently received a promotional email from Chessable praising Simon Williams' Grandmaster Gambits course.  He recommends the delayed MBG against the French, although in the course description, it's been rebranded as "Magnus Carlsen's upgraded Milner-Barry Gambit". And it's called "the improved Milner-Barry Gambit" in the information on Rozman's course.

Despite my quibbling, I think The French Defense Revisited does a good job of providing a solid foundation for those looking to adopt the French.  The illustrative games section looks to be quite instructive, and the solutions to the twenty or so problems are given as entire games, so readers can see the test positions within the proper content.
  
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Re: The French Defense Revisited
Reply #11 - 04/29/23 at 01:33:44
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I don't know, if you are playing white and facing the mighty Winawer you probably feel like you are under "attack" on all fronts.

Jokes aside many thanks for the heads-up on the up-dated excerpt, it is far more helpful....

Regards
  
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